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On December 08 2012 13:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:36 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making. This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on. It's as simple as testing it out in a unit tester yourself, and seeing the results. Many of the questions asked in Simple questions and answers are like that. "Does X beat Y with this in this situation" Also, even David Kim explained that the purpose was for it to do better against armored air units. That pretty much answers the thread. He didn't say it directly but the meaning is implied Show nested quote +As such, we’ve given the Thor a new weapon that can be swapped with its anti-light, AoE weapon when it may be more useful for a particular situation. What isn't anti-light and AOE is a weapon that is better against non-light (basically, armored) units and has no AOE. Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:27 GattAttack wrote:
Wouldn't HIP scale much better into the late game as opposed to the javelin? In the early game where armour values are small, of course having the splash anti-air will be more useful (and it's more geared towards mid game units like mutalisks anyway), but as your enemy gains more armour upgrades and beefier units the javelin becomes quite pitiful.
What I'm trying to say is that the way the upgrades for the javelin work are +1 * 4, so actually for every weapon upgrade you get, your opponent getting an armour upgrade makes it a moot point. However for the HIP you just get a flat +4 damage, so for equal upgrades you're getting 3 extra damage. Including the increase in the weapon speed, this will make thor's anti-air scale incredibly well against armoured targets, something that mech really needed as the javelin becomes rather terrible against late game armies (and the thor is supposed to be a late game unit!).
Overall perhaps the numbers will need to change, but the tradeoff of increased DPS and scalability for splash seems really interesting and will lead to a lot more player experimentation with the thor. Which is pretty cool. They increase by 4? wow, then yes you're right
The only way to test this late game with two people playing - not a test map. Similar to what Idra and WhiteRa did today with PvZ. Two GM's including myself and Availo have mentioned we think this skill is lacking or useless most of the time. The greatest increase in the Thor's ability (this patch) is the elimination of energy, which makes them immune to feedback. I'm not arguing that the Thor is weak, I'm just questioning how this skill is any different from strike cannon during gameplay - I see the two as synonymous as not impacting the results of the game. Please don't respond to this post because you obviously take anything David Kim says at face value instead of truly testing it. I see this skill as one of the most prolific and interesting one of the upgrades, yet you dismiss it with simple DPS comparison as saying its a "improvement" without using logic, micro, and unit composition to guide your assumptions. To think you would relegate this question to something as a topic of "simple questions simple answers" is laughable. This is really a post about Thor splash damage impact versus direct damage (both with similar DPS but cooldown varying). We all know what the ability does. The question is...what is its usefulness.
Start posting replays on this and see how it turns out. I will soon.
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On December 08 2012 16:22 Zergrusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 14:49 larse wrote:
1 Thor vs 1 BL
Thor dies, and BL has 40%HP left if Thor uses missiles.
BL dies, and Thor has like a few HP, if Thor uses punisher cannon. then perhaps the best way to change the BL is to decrease the range from 9.5 to 9 and/or increase the supply cost of the morph to 4
Why? Thor wins
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On December 08 2012 16:51 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:22 Zergrusher wrote:On December 08 2012 14:49 larse wrote:
1 Thor vs 1 BL
Thor dies, and BL has 40%HP left if Thor uses missiles.
BL dies, and Thor has like a few HP, if Thor uses punisher cannon. then perhaps the best way to change the BL is to decrease the range from 9.5 to 9 and/or increase the supply cost of the morph to 4 Why? Thor wins
No. Thor wins both ways. It has 40% hp left after using Punisher cannon. This kid is trolling or mispoke.
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On December 08 2012 16:48 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 13:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 08 2012 11:36 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making. This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on. It's as simple as testing it out in a unit tester yourself, and seeing the results. Many of the questions asked in Simple questions and answers are like that. "Does X beat Y with this in this situation" Also, even David Kim explained that the purpose was for it to do better against armored air units. That pretty much answers the thread. He didn't say it directly but the meaning is implied As such, we’ve given the Thor a new weapon that can be swapped with its anti-light, AoE weapon when it may be more useful for a particular situation. What isn't anti-light and AOE is a weapon that is better against non-light (basically, armored) units and has no AOE. On December 08 2012 11:27 GattAttack wrote:
Wouldn't HIP scale much better into the late game as opposed to the javelin? In the early game where armour values are small, of course having the splash anti-air will be more useful (and it's more geared towards mid game units like mutalisks anyway), but as your enemy gains more armour upgrades and beefier units the javelin becomes quite pitiful.
What I'm trying to say is that the way the upgrades for the javelin work are +1 * 4, so actually for every weapon upgrade you get, your opponent getting an armour upgrade makes it a moot point. However for the HIP you just get a flat +4 damage, so for equal upgrades you're getting 3 extra damage. Including the increase in the weapon speed, this will make thor's anti-air scale incredibly well against armoured targets, something that mech really needed as the javelin becomes rather terrible against late game armies (and the thor is supposed to be a late game unit!).
Overall perhaps the numbers will need to change, but the tradeoff of increased DPS and scalability for splash seems really interesting and will lead to a lot more player experimentation with the thor. Which is pretty cool. They increase by 4? wow, then yes you're right The only way to test this late game is with two people playing - not a test map. Similar to what Idra and WhiteRa did today with PvZ. Two GM's including myself and Availo have mentioned we think this skill is lacking or useless most of the time. The greatest increase in the Thor's ability (this patch) is the elimination of energy, which makes them immune to feedback. I'm not arguing that the Thor is weak, I'm just questioning how this skill is any different from strike cannon during gameplay - I see the two as synonymous and not impacting the results of the game. Please don't respond to this post because you obviously take anything David Kim says at face value instead of truly testing it. I see this skill as one of the most prolific and interesting one of the upgrades, yet you dismiss it with simple DPS comparison as saying its a "improvement" without using logic, micro, and unit composition to guide your assumptions. To think you would relegate this question to something as a topic of "simple questions simple answers" is laughable. This is really a post about Thor splash damage impact versus direct damage (both with similar DPS but cooldown varying). We all know what the ability does. The question is...what is its usefulness. Start posting replays on this and see how it turns out. I will soon.
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On December 08 2012 16:51 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 16:22 Zergrusher wrote:On December 08 2012 14:49 larse wrote:
1 Thor vs 1 BL
Thor dies, and BL has 40%HP left if Thor uses missiles.
BL dies, and Thor has like a few HP, if Thor uses punisher cannon. then perhaps the best way to change the BL is to decrease the range from 9.5 to 9 and/or increase the supply cost of the morph to 4 Why? Thor wins
well i ment about the BL in general from a balance persective lol.
anyways I really hope this ability can be used against the Collossi
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This is so simple, I'm not sure why this thread is four pages long.
1) HIP has a shorter attack rate, and therefore has higher DPS.
2) HIP is not split into four separate attacks, and is therefore less affected by armor.
HIP does better against non-light units than EP, no questions asked.
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Hip I assume will also better scale with upgrades
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On December 08 2012 17:38 Cuce wrote:
Hip I assume will also better scale with upgrades
I hope so aswell
and has anyone tested if it works on War of the worlds?
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On December 08 2012 10:51 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 10:45 RenZan wrote:
with the javelin missile you have to count 4 times the armor of the ennemy air unit. So if you target one big unit like broodlord for exemple the high impact payload do more damage. This is correct. Because the missiles deal damage separated into 4 missiles, armor deductions are counted 4 times. So assuming the target has 1 armor, each of the 6 damage missiles will have its damage reduced to 5, which makes the total damage only 20 instead of 24. With the cannons, the armor deduction is only counted once for the one instance of damage, so the 24 damage is only reduced to 23. Plus, the cannons have a cooldown of 2 seconds as opposed to the 3 second cooldown that the missiles have, so the cannons end up firing faster. Using the cannons, one Thor will beat one Broodlord. Using missiles, the Thor loses.
The thing is that its not "1 Thor vs. 1 Broodlord" but rather several of them against each other and the relatively bad mobility of the Thor, the Broodlings blocking the way and possibly other limitations on ground mobility due to choke points and such the Broodlords will still have the advantage in larger numbers.
On December 08 2012 16:48 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 13:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On December 08 2012 11:36 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making. This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on. It's as simple as testing it out in a unit tester yourself, and seeing the results. Many of the questions asked in Simple questions and answers are like that. "Does X beat Y with this in this situation" Also, even David Kim explained that the purpose was for it to do better against armored air units. That pretty much answers the thread. He didn't say it directly but the meaning is implied As such, we’ve given the Thor a new weapon that can be swapped with its anti-light, AoE weapon when it may be more useful for a particular situation. What isn't anti-light and AOE is a weapon that is better against non-light (basically, armored) units and has no AOE. On December 08 2012 11:27 GattAttack wrote:
Wouldn't HIP scale much better into the late game as opposed to the javelin? In the early game where armour values are small, of course having the splash anti-air will be more useful (and it's more geared towards mid game units like mutalisks anyway), but as your enemy gains more armour upgrades and beefier units the javelin becomes quite pitiful.
What I'm trying to say is that the way the upgrades for the javelin work are +1 * 4, so actually for every weapon upgrade you get, your opponent getting an armour upgrade makes it a moot point. However for the HIP you just get a flat +4 damage, so for equal upgrades you're getting 3 extra damage. Including the increase in the weapon speed, this will make thor's anti-air scale incredibly well against armoured targets, something that mech really needed as the javelin becomes rather terrible against late game armies (and the thor is supposed to be a late game unit!).
Overall perhaps the numbers will need to change, but the tradeoff of increased DPS and scalability for splash seems really interesting and will lead to a lot more player experimentation with the thor. Which is pretty cool. They increase by 4? wow, then yes you're right The only way to test this late game with two people playing - not a test map. Similar to what Idra and WhiteRa did today with PvZ. Two GM's including myself and Availo have mentioned we think this skill is lacking or useless most of the time. The greatest increase in the Thor's ability (this patch) is the elimination of energy, which makes them immune to feedback. I'm not arguing that the Thor is weak, I'm just questioning how this skill is any different from strike cannon during gameplay - I see the two as synonymous as not impacting the results of the game. Please don't respond to this post because you obviously take anything David Kim says at face value instead of truly testing it. I see this skill as one of the most prolific and interesting one of the upgrades, yet you dismiss it with simple DPS comparison as saying its a "improvement" without using logic, micro, and unit composition to guide your assumptions. To think you would relegate this question to something as a topic of "simple questions simple answers" is laughable. This is really a post about Thor splash damage impact versus direct damage (both with similar DPS but cooldown varying). We all know what the ability does. The question is...what is its usefulness. Start posting replays on this and see how it turns out. I will soon.
This plus the size reduction IMO.
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The normal mode has 8 dps (6.66 vs 1 armor, 5.33 vs 2 armor) vs armored targets. The new mode has 12 dps (11.5 vs 1 armor, 11 vs 2 armor). So you should pretty much always use the old mode when you can hit atleast 2 targets or light armored targets. Guess you shouldn't use the new mode unless you are behind on upgrades.
I hope the new mode gets buffed a bit.
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On December 08 2012 17:04 Crawdad wrote:
This is so simple, I'm not sure why this thread is four pages long.
1) HIP has a shorter attack rate, and therefore has higher DPS.
2) HIP is not split into four separate attacks, and is therefore less affected by armor.
HIP does better against non-light units than EP, no questions asked.
I'm so close to being done with this post b/c people like you. Please read the rest of the 4 pages before you comment. There is a reason for splash and its effectiveness. Please do not comment on this post unless you play Terran, are masters or higher and have the BETA. Thank you!
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On December 08 2012 18:05 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 17:04 Crawdad wrote:
This is so simple, I'm not sure why this thread is four pages long.
1) HIP has a shorter attack rate, and therefore has higher DPS.
2) HIP is not split into four separate attacks, and is therefore less affected by armor.
HIP does better against non-light units than EP, no questions asked. I'm so close to being done with this post b/c people like you. Please read the rest of the 4 pages before you comment. There is a reason for splash and its effectiveness. Please do not comment on this post unless you play Terran, are masters or higher and have the BETA. Thank you!
Tbh you are pretty much the only one who cant see the obvious. Thors normal splash is very small, it only works against really clumped up units. I could give you an example how enormously better 3/3 thors with HIP would be against 3/3 carriers than thors with javs, but you would then only rage at me. (We are talking about way more than twice the dps, uncreative troll should take native resistances into account, and also upgrade scaling).
Or glaringly obvious situations like you are walking around with a smallish mech army, bunch of hellbats, siege tanks, and 2-3 thors, and suddenly you find out your toss opponent managed to make some voids unscouted. Since we arent talking about 20 voids they wont clump up noticable, and AOE damage is fairly insignificant. But you are welcome to just stick to javs.
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I think it´s pretty obvious it´s going to be buffed in a while so it becomes more viable 
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I still believe that in this mode the Thor should become like a stationary Turret, with high DPS (antiair ofc). This is enabled by the positioning ability of the mech army. This mean the Thor can't move, but his Damage his increased a lot.
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On December 08 2012 18:10 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 18:05 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 17:04 Crawdad wrote:
This is so simple, I'm not sure why this thread is four pages long.
1) HIP has a shorter attack rate, and therefore has higher DPS.
2) HIP is not split into four separate attacks, and is therefore less affected by armor.
HIP does better against non-light units than EP, no questions asked. I'm so close to being done with this post b/c people like you. Please read the rest of the 4 pages before you comment. There is a reason for splash and its effectiveness. Please do not comment on this post unless you play Terran, are masters or higher and have the BETA. Thank you! Tbh you are pretty much the only one who cant see the obvious. Thors normal splash is very small, it only works against really clumped up units. I could give you an example how enormously better 3/3 thors with HIP would be against 3/3 carriers than thors with javs, but you would then only rage at me. (We are talking about way more than twice the dps, uncreative troll should take native resistances into account, and also upgrade scaling). Or glaringly obvious situations like you are walking around with a smallish mech army, bunch of hellbats, siege tanks, and 2-3 thors, and suddenly you find out your toss opponent managed to make some voids unscouted. Since we arent talking about 20 voids they wont clump up noticable, and AOE damage is fairly insignificant. But you are welcome to just stick to javs.
And again, you are a perfect example of a person who obviously did not read the rest of the posts. I conceded units like BC and mid-size carrier armies are worse against HIP than Javelin missles. But, for the most part, this is not how Blizzard presents this weapon - better versus "mostly air" armies. It is no better versus units like BL or other mid-size (non-light) units - in fact worse because it doesn't splash clumped up corruptors/phoenix etc. At critical mass air (such as carriers) this weapon is useless. Sounds like myself and Availo are the only people that actually see this ability as useless. As GM I don't post many unfounded complaints unless it is blaringly obvious. I urge the next person to disprove me via replays. Thank you.
Edit: And this has nothing to do with the Thor's strength - it is very strong in its current state (imo). This is just a statement "what the hell is this ability supposed to be used for." Thank you for the elimination of the energy component - I'm content with that....
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The better question is whether or not Blizzard is going to buff it a little bit. It is not that much of an improvement on non-light air units at the moment, especially against two keys units - Broodlords and Void Rays which are both going to be seen a lot in HOTS. I've had big groups of thors melt to both of these units with HIP on.
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On December 08 2012 18:23 HyDrA_solic wrote:
I still believe that in this mode the Thor should become like a stationary Turret, with high DPS (antiair ofc). This is enabled by the positioning ability of the mech army. This mean the Thor can't move, but his Damage his increased a lot.
Nice idea. The conversion time would have to be thought out though. It would have to be longer than 4 seconds to be in defensive mode, but it could work. I dont see it working in a offensive engagement because it would be too versitile. Nobody wants to see mass thors (even as a Terran I concede that).
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On December 08 2012 18:30 Scila wrote:
The better question is whether or not Blizzard is going to buff it a little bit. It is not that much of an improvement on non-light air units at the moment, especially against two keys units - Broodlords and Void Rays which are both going to be seen a lot in HOTS. I've had big groups of thors melt to both of these units with HIP on.
I too have had them melt. I fear this new ability will just fall by the waste side like strike cannon. But I do not want it too: I think this concept is a good idea, it just needs some tweaking. When it first came out I thought this conversion reduced Thor light damage in place for max single unit damage. So, for instance, HIP becomes 50-60 dmg flat (no splash) and can only hit air, when converted back it is the standard thor in WoL. I thought that concept was a interesting idea until I saw what Blizzard had really rolled out.
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im pretty sure it will be buffed. the idea itself is good design-wise, but the damage right now is ridiculous, especially compared to the over-the-top animation of the morphing and the attack
AAAAND THE THOR BRINGS OUT THE BIG GUNS... to do the same damange :o
its even worse than tempest, which also, right now, has an over-the-top attack animation doing actually little damage
possible buffs would be just to buff dps, or buff dps even more in return for making thors stationary when using it, or just bring back the old 250mm and let them hit air
with air/ground upgrades shared its prolly not even necessary to make the thor so good anti-air, it will just overlap with vikings. so instead im all for making the thor:
-stronger
-slower
-more expensive
-give it at least one more ability
to turn it into a non-massable high damage versatile support unit for mech. the versatility of different "transformer-forms" and the micro-effort for these will offset its clunkyness
i could even imagine making the thor really good but limiting the amount of thors you can have, a la MsC
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On December 08 2012 11:20 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Since Blizz combined the mech & air upgrades, I don't think the Thor needs to be an exceptional anti-air unit.
I'm with this guy.
I think the HIP Cannons make the Thor a more useful anti-air unit vs larger enemies (if only slightly)due to the armor issue but I don't think they're meant to completely invalidate Vikings especially now that Vikings are so much more accessible with shared upgrades.
At the end of the day too regardless of how effective 250cannons are, there's 2 points that can't really be argued against.
1. HIP is fucking cool. Seeing Thors walking around with giant cannons on their shoulders is AWESOME.
2. Thors lost their energy bar. Which means HTs can't feedback them anymore. That alone is a huge plus with the new system.
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EPT
