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Hi Everyone,
I'm a big mech fan all around in WoL against all races (even P). So, of course, I was excited to see an addition to the Thor. But for the last hour I have been testing the new Thor addition called "High Impact Payload" on a unit test map.
I am really confused about this weapon: When the cannon is activated it deals 24 flat damage to air (regardless of unit size). Currently, the Javalin missile does 48 damage (12x4) to light and 24 (6x4) damage to non-light. Someone please tell me the point of this weapon; I thought it was supposed to be an answer to heavy air, yet the Javelin deals the same 24 damage to heavy as the "High Impact Payload" (HIP) canon. In fact, the Javilin does splash, so there is even more of a reason never to use HIP. I'm finding it even more cumbersome because you have to continuously target too with no increased damage compared to Javelin.
Can someone please help me understand how why this canon is not less useless than it's brother 250mm strike cannon?
Thank you
EDIT: So many of you are wondering about Colossi in this post. High Impact Payload does not hit colossi - it is a air ONLY weapon. Do not bring this into the discussion. Please go to "simple question simple answers for this." This thread is mainly to discuss the Thor Javelin splash versus HIP - which has close to the same output damage, but one has faster cooldown (HIP) and the other does not. We are getting opinions of "value added" to this ability. Please do not respond to this unless you have a beta key and have tested. Thank you.
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with the javelin missile you have to count 4 times the armor of the ennemy air unit. So if you target one big unit like broodlord for exemple the high impact payload do more damage.
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On December 08 2012 10:45 RenZan wrote:
with the javelin missile you have to count 4 times the armor of the ennemy air unit. So if you target one big unit like broodlord for exemple the high impact payload do more damage.
This is correct.
Because the missiles deal damage separated into 4 missiles, armor deductions are counted 4 times. So assuming the target has 1 armor, each of the 6 damage missiles will have its damage reduced to 5, which makes the total damage only 20 instead of 24.
With the cannons, the armor deduction is only counted once for the one instance of damage, so the 24 damage is only reduced to 23. Plus, the cannons have a cooldown of 2 seconds as opposed to the 3 second cooldown that the missiles have, so the cannons end up firing faster.
Using the cannons, one Thor will beat one Broodlord. Using missiles, the Thor loses.
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I'm not really sure about your "armor" point. Regardless i suggest you test trying to target a heavy BL army with the HIP - your out of range thors just clump up and die to broodlings. Its better to get the splash of the Javelin missile than try to manage a out-of-range clunky unit that is dead by the time it maneuvers past the broodlings. I don't see this being used at all aside from TvT with Battlecruisers versus Thors.
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On December 08 2012 10:51 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 10:45 RenZan wrote:
with the javelin missile you have to count 4 times the armor of the ennemy air unit. So if you target one big unit like broodlord for exemple the high impact payload do more damage. This is correct. Because the missiles deal damage separated into 4 missiles, armor deductions are counted 4 times. So assuming the target has 1 armor, each of the 6 damage missiles will have its damage reduced to 5, which makes the total damage only 20 instead of 24. With the cannons, the armor deduction is only counted once for the one instance of damage, so the 24 damage is only reduced to 23. Plus, the cannons have a cooldown of 2 seconds as opposed to the 3 second cooldown that the missiles have, so the cannons end up firing faster. Using the cannons, one Thor will beat one Broodlord. Using missiles, the Thor loses.
Thanks for the clarification on the armor. But take a look at my last post regarding a heavy BL armor. It becomes a moot point with targeting...you might as well take the Javelin splash instead.
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what's the rate of fire (cooldown) for total dps and the range (for both)?
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On December 08 2012 10:57 y0su wrote:
what's the rate of fire (cooldown) for total dps and the range (for both)?
Dunno about total DPS, but the rate of fire is 2 seconds for the High-Impact Payload cannons and 3 seconds for the missiles. Both have range 10.
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On December 08 2012 10:57 y0su wrote:
what's the rate of fire (cooldown) for total dps and the range (for both)?
since I'm only concerned about attack versus heavy air (obviously Javelin missile is the better choice for light) it is:
Javelin = 6dmg x 4 hits = 24 total damage with 3 second cooldown. Javelin has splash.
High Impact Payload = 24 flat damage (regardless of air type) with 2 second cool down. HIP no splash.
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I'm just saying risks outweigh the small small small damage increase reward. Especially if a Protoss has Phoenix in their Carrier or Tempest army or Corruptors with their BL (which always happens). You'll be trying to target all day while your thors clump up and die, when you could have just done more effective damage with splash. Would anyone disagree?
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with 0/0 upgrates HIP is about 12 dps on a GG lord while the javelins are around 7 ish dps. Brood lords are pretty big so even if your opponent is terrible the splash will still be minimal as the eventually naturally spread out. Given that HIP has 1 more range , i feel its better than javelin against brood lords.
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The high impact payload right now...sucks. I hope they strengthen it so it let's you deal with carriers/tempest better. I've tried the high impact vs broodlords but with all the broodlings it seems this ability is more geared towards countering carrier/tempest/BCS.
It doesn't feel strong though, try it on a medivac and you're like "wow my thor is just barely hitting it lol."
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Your claim doesn't make any sense. The range on both things is the same, splash doesn't increase the range that the thors can fire from. How does the lack of splash of the HIP affect targeting at all? And corruptors or pheonix should not be being targeted by your thors. If you're not microing your thors then they won't be effective anyway.
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United Kingdom12027 Posts
On December 08 2012 11:13 avilo wrote:
The high impact payload right now...sucks. I hope they strengthen it so it let's you deal with carriers/tempest better. I've tried the high impact vs broodlords but with all the broodlings it seems this ability is more geared towards countering carrier/tempest/BCS.
It doesn't feel strong though, try it on a medivac and you're like "wow my thor is just barely hitting it lol."
It's still way more than what happened before.
I found today that I could actually use thors to counter protoss air, I just had massive problems dealing with broodlords purely for the broodling issue.
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Since Blizz combined the mech & air upgrades, I don't think the Thor needs to be an exceptional anti-air unit.
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so what are we discussing here? Obviously the 24damage one with 2s CD is better then the 6*4 damage one with 3s CD against broods since they ahve the same range?. Is this even a topic... Noone is claiming that its awsome and counter unit x w/e but that its better isnt really in question, its pretty damn obvious given the numbers.
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On December 08 2012 11:14 Zyrnak wrote:
Your claim doesn't make any sense. The range on both things is the same, splash doesn't increase the range that the thors can fire from. How does the lack of splash of the HIP affect targeting at all? And corruptors or pheonix should not be being targeted by your thors. If you're not microing your thors then they won't be effective anyway.
a) I would suggest you should try it if you can unit test beta and you will see what I mean against a decent BL army. b) If your opponent positions corruptors or Phoenix in the same vicinity as the Javelin, it will splash both the corruptors and the BL. When I target one BL with a Javelini missile, it typically impacts several of the surrounding Broodlords and/or corruptors (at least to some degree). So what happens with the HIP? I target 1 broodlord and they micro it back...what am I supposed to do...follow it while broodlings block and swarm my entire army? And what if they bring queens with transfuse? It is pretty obvious the zerg knows which BL to transfuse making it even less effective. This weapon makes it far more easy for your opponent to just target micro away from the unit being targeted, while your cluncky thors try to follow it.
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This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making.
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Wouldn't HIP scale much better into the late game as opposed to the javelin? In the early game where armour values are small, of course having the splash anti-air will be more useful (and it's more geared towards mid game units like mutalisks anyway), but as your enemy gains more armour upgrades and beefier units the javelin becomes quite pitiful.
What I'm trying to say is that the way the upgrades for the javelin work are +1 * 4, so actually for every weapon upgrade you get, your opponent getting an armour upgrade makes it a moot point. However for the HIP you just get a flat +4 damage, so for equal upgrades you're getting 3 extra damage. Including the increase in the weapon speed, this will make thor's anti-air scale incredibly well against armoured targets, something that mech really needed as the javelin becomes rather terrible against late game armies (and the thor is supposed to be a late game unit!).
Overall perhaps the numbers will need to change, but the tradeoff of increased DPS and scalability for splash seems really interesting and will lead to a lot more player experimentation with the thor. Which is pretty cool.
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EPT
