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On December 08 2012 11:05 SirPinky wrote:
I'm just saying risks outweigh the small small small damage increase reward. Especially if a Protoss has Phoenix in their Carrier or Tempest army or Corruptors with their BL (which always happens). You'll be trying to target all day while your thors clump up and die, when you could have just done more effective damage with splash. Would anyone disagree?
I think most disagree honestly, and again, the claim that the high inpact is awsome against BLs or carriers isnt there but that its better is pretty obvious. If the dps difference is 5 (12 and 7) then its not a small increase.. its almost the double. And splas doesnt really come into effect vs these units unless the zerg/toss is absolutely horrible. Without knowing the exact numbers the dps difference will get bigger with attack upgrades for the terran and armor for the zerg/toss. Eventually it will be quite huge.
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On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making.
This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on.
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I feel that the only thing that needed to be removed from the thor was really the energy. The HIP is kinda.. pointless. It looks cool but I (imo) would much rather use the javelin missles seeing that they do splash. I feel HIP kind of overlaps with Vikings.
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I dont know what the problem is....if its not strong enough they will buff it. Why does every act like this is the final product
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On December 08 2012 11:36 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making. This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on.
alright, so against carrier/pheonix this is far more techincal perhaps but vs BL corruptor it is not. No zerg will have mutas in that army so no light units are present.
In a superlate situation the dps difference targetting a fully upgraded BL with a fully upgraded thor is 16dps vs 6.67. No splash will make that worthwhile.
And you claim that splash makes it harder to transfuse? well, it doesnt, its quite the opposite hoestly. With the tickling of the thors on BLs with the splash you have plenty of time to transfuse them all. now, with 6-7thors or how many you have a BL will die fast enough that failing to transfuse is actually possible, there will even come a time when oneshotting a BL is possible.. at 225hp you would need .7 thors with 3attack vs 1armor broods.. that could change alot tbh.
THOUGH
Im making a huge asumption with these numbers , and that is that the high payload gets +4damage per upgrade. Can anyone confirm this?. the dps will still increase aslong as its not 1 but obviously not by as much. 4seemed to be the logical amount since well, the javelin gets 4 in total.
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On December 08 2012 11:30 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:05 SirPinky wrote:
I'm just saying risks outweigh the small small small damage increase reward. Especially if a Protoss has Phoenix in their Carrier or Tempest army or Corruptors with their BL (which always happens). You'll be trying to target all day while your thors clump up and die, when you could have just done more effective damage with splash. Would anyone disagree? I think most disagree honestly, and again, the claim that the high inpact is awsome against BLs or carriers isnt there but that its better is pretty obvious. If the dps difference is 5 (12 and 7) then its not a small increase.. its almost the double. And splas doesnt really come into effect vs these units unless the zerg/toss is absolutely horrible. Without knowing the exact numbers the dps difference will get bigger with attack upgrades for the terran and armor for the zerg/toss. Eventually it will be quite huge.
Uh, you say "And splas doesnt really come into effect vs these units unless the zerg/toss is absolutely horrible." That's a huge statement. Even pro's have a hard time spreading their units perfectly, while engaging units like viking versus their corruptors. I guess you tacked on that statement to completely nullify my splash damage argument, but I completely disagree with it. Only advantage I might concede is a medium size Carrier or BC army, which it seems more effective. The rest are pretty useless -ill take splash any day over a critical mass Carrier or BL army.
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On December 08 2012 11:42 LgNKami wrote:
I feel that the only thing that needed to be removed from the thor was really the energy. The HIP is kinda.. pointless. It looks cool but I (imo) would much rather use the javelin missles seeing that they do splash. I feel HIP kind of overlaps with Vikings.
my guess is that this is geared to not forcing the terran to make vikings but having more thors/tanks instead. overlapping with a unit is fine if it means you can skip making unit x.
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On December 08 2012 11:44 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:30 doffe wrote:On December 08 2012 11:05 SirPinky wrote:
I'm just saying risks outweigh the small small small damage increase reward. Especially if a Protoss has Phoenix in their Carrier or Tempest army or Corruptors with their BL (which always happens). You'll be trying to target all day while your thors clump up and die, when you could have just done more effective damage with splash. Would anyone disagree? I think most disagree honestly, and again, the claim that the high inpact is awsome against BLs or carriers isnt there but that its better is pretty obvious. If the dps difference is 5 (12 and 7) then its not a small increase.. its almost the double. And splas doesnt really come into effect vs these units unless the zerg/toss is absolutely horrible. Without knowing the exact numbers the dps difference will get bigger with attack upgrades for the terran and armor for the zerg/toss. Eventually it will be quite huge. Uh, you say "And splas doesnt really come into effect vs these units unless the zerg/toss is absolutely horrible." That's a huge statement. Even pro's have a hard time spreading their units perfectly, while engaging units like viking versus their corruptors. I guess you can tack on that statement to completely nullify my splash damage argument, but I completely disagree with it. Only advantage I might concide is a medium size Carrier or BC army, which it seems more effective. The rest are pretty useless -ill take splash any day over a critical mass Carrier or BL army.
its not like the thor splashradius is superbig. And obviously some splash will occur but I hardly think its enough. And with the lower dps on each target its easier to pull them back and/or transfuse before they die. Id say its better to kill 2 BLs then to get 4 in the red.
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On December 08 2012 11:44 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:36 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making. This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on. alright, so against carrier/pheonix this is far more techincal perhaps but vs BL corruptor it is not. No zerg will have mutas in that army so no light units are present. In a superlate situation the dps difference targetting a fully upgraded BL with a fully upgraded thor is 16dps vs 6.67. No splash will make that worthwhile. And you claim that splash makes it harder to transfuse? well, it doesnt, its quite the opposite hoestly. With the tickling of the thors on BLs with the splash you have plenty of time to transfuse them all. now, with 6-7thors or how many you have a BL will die fast enough that failing to transfuse is actually possible, there will even come a time when oneshotting a BL is possible.. at 225hp you would need .7 thors with 3attack vs 1armor broods.. that could change alot tbh. THOUGH Im making a huge asumption with these numbers , and that is that the high payload gets +4damage per upgrade. Can anyone confirm this?. the dps will still increase aslong as its not 1 but obviously not by as much. 4seemed to be the logical amount since well, the javelin gets 4 in total.
You're missing the corruptor part in BL/corruptor. HIP is just not viable in the combination. Thors and Vikings are typically present in a mech composition versus BL corruptor. When the corruptors start targeting BL, then what happens? Obviously, the Zerg player advances their corruptors to hit the vikings. When this happens Thors prioritize their attacks to hit the corruptors (which generally begin to clump when try to target vikings). The splash is mainly for corruptors not BL. I'd much rather take out all the corruptors and clean up with vikings than risk picking off one BL at a time with HIP while trying to target 1 units at a time with a clunky unit.
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Thors can help snipe Colossi now, which can help in lategame TvP
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On December 08 2012 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Thors can help snipe Colossi now, which can help in lategame TvP
What? No they can't...they will always use the "thor cannon" versus colossi. They are no different than in WoL
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On December 08 2012 11:57 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Thors can help snipe Colossi now, which can help in lategame TvP What? No they can't...they will always use the "thor cannon" versus colossi. They are no different than in WoL
Longer range = everything. They outrange Colossi now.
Also, something everyone seems to be forgetting in the BL vs Thor debate: You won't go mass Thor vs Mass BL. Other factors play in, like Hellions.
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On December 08 2012 11:53 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:44 doffe wrote:On December 08 2012 11:36 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making. This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on. alright, so against carrier/pheonix this is far more techincal perhaps but vs BL corruptor it is not. No zerg will have mutas in that army so no light units are present. In a superlate situation the dps difference targetting a fully upgraded BL with a fully upgraded thor is 16dps vs 6.67. No splash will make that worthwhile. And you claim that splash makes it harder to transfuse? well, it doesnt, its quite the opposite hoestly. With the tickling of the thors on BLs with the splash you have plenty of time to transfuse them all. now, with 6-7thors or how many you have a BL will die fast enough that failing to transfuse is actually possible, there will even come a time when oneshotting a BL is possible.. at 225hp you would need .7 thors with 3attack vs 1armor broods.. that could change alot tbh. THOUGH Im making a huge asumption with these numbers , and that is that the high payload gets +4damage per upgrade. Can anyone confirm this?. the dps will still increase aslong as its not 1 but obviously not by as much. 4seemed to be the logical amount since well, the javelin gets 4 in total. You're missing the corruptor part in BL/corruptor. HIP is just not viable in the combination. Thors and Vikings are typically present in a mech composition versus BL corruptor. When the corruptors start targeting BL, then what happens? Obviously, the Zerg player advances their corruptors to hit the vikings. When this happens Thors prioritize their attacks to hit the corruptors (which generally begin to clump when try to target vikings). The splash is mainly for corruptors not BL. I'd much rather take out all the corruptors and clean up with vikings than risk picking off one BL at a time with HIP while trying to target 1 units at a time with a clunky unit.
you could simply not make vikings now if the thor is actually good at singletargetting BLs. I asume this is the biggest point of this upgrade, to give the option to counter zerg lategame with pure ground, making the switch back and forth to ultras alot less potent. viking and thordps vs broods will be basically the same but you will most likely be far ahead on ground upgrades.
Sure, vikings are cheaper but if making no vikings has the zerg with plenty of useless corrupters thats fine.
1question aswell, at what level are you playing?
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On December 08 2012 11:59 iKill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:57 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Thors can help snipe Colossi now, which can help in lategame TvP What? No they can't...they will always use the "thor cannon" versus colossi. They are no different than in WoL Longer range = everything. They outrange Colossi now. Also, something everyone seems to be forgetting in the BL vs Thor debate: You won't go mass Thor vs Mass BL. Other factors play in, like Hellions.
Thor vs BL debate aside, b/c it is a big one. They don't outrange Colossi with thermal lance. Anyone that doesn't have thermal lance (in general) shouldn't be going colossus unless they have some one base timing up their sleeve. I see no change Colossi versus Thor.
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On December 08 2012 12:04 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:59 iKill wrote:On December 08 2012 11:57 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Thors can help snipe Colossi now, which can help in lategame TvP What? No they can't...they will always use the "thor cannon" versus colossi. They are no different than in WoL Longer range = everything. They outrange Colossi now. Also, something everyone seems to be forgetting in the BL vs Thor debate: You won't go mass Thor vs Mass BL. Other factors play in, like Hellions. Thor vs BL debate aside, b/c it is a big one. They don't outrange Colossi with thermal lance. Anyone that doesn't have thermal lance (in general) shouldn't be going colossus unless they have some one base timing up their sleeve. I see no change Colossi versus Thor.
Colossus with Thermal Lance is range 9. HIP is range 10.
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On December 08 2012 12:03 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:53 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:44 doffe wrote:On December 08 2012 11:36 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making. This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on. alright, so against carrier/pheonix this is far more techincal perhaps but vs BL corruptor it is not. No zerg will have mutas in that army so no light units are present. In a superlate situation the dps difference targetting a fully upgraded BL with a fully upgraded thor is 16dps vs 6.67. No splash will make that worthwhile. And you claim that splash makes it harder to transfuse? well, it doesnt, its quite the opposite hoestly. With the tickling of the thors on BLs with the splash you have plenty of time to transfuse them all. now, with 6-7thors or how many you have a BL will die fast enough that failing to transfuse is actually possible, there will even come a time when oneshotting a BL is possible.. at 225hp you would need .7 thors with 3attack vs 1armor broods.. that could change alot tbh. THOUGH Im making a huge asumption with these numbers , and that is that the high payload gets +4damage per upgrade. Can anyone confirm this?. the dps will still increase aslong as its not 1 but obviously not by as much. 4seemed to be the logical amount since well, the javelin gets 4 in total. You're missing the corruptor part in BL/corruptor. HIP is just not viable in the combination. Thors and Vikings are typically present in a mech composition versus BL corruptor. When the corruptors start targeting BL, then what happens? Obviously, the Zerg player advances their corruptors to hit the vikings. When this happens Thors prioritize their attacks to hit the corruptors (which generally begin to clump when try to target vikings). The splash is mainly for corruptors not BL. I'd much rather take out all the corruptors and clean up with vikings than risk picking off one BL at a time with HIP while trying to target 1 units at a time with a clunky unit. you could simply not make vikings now if the thor is actually good at singletargetting BLs. I asume this is the biggest point of this upgrade, to give the option to counter zerg lategame with pure ground, making the switch back and forth to ultras alot less potent. viking and thordps vs broods will be basically the same but you will most likely be far ahead on ground upgrades. Sure, vikings are cheaper but if making no vikings has the zerg with plenty of useless corrupters thats fine. 1question aswell, at what level are you playing?
I'm GM toss High master T.
And, no, you can't go mass Thors now with this upgrade. BL armies will always defeat them overwhelmingly in a maxed thor versus maxed BL army. You need air support, that how Blizzard designed it. My argument is there really isn't any significant change with the HIP; I find splash more viable for most unit compositions.
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The people who thinks it outrages collosi without thermal are incorrect. It NEVER attacks collosi with its anti-air attacks, it just uses its stronger attack vs ground, which is better, but has less range. Even if it is in range for the new AA attack but not for the ground attack is simply tries to get closer to use its regular ground attack.
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On December 08 2012 12:06 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 12:04 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:59 iKill wrote:On December 08 2012 11:57 SirPinky wrote:On December 08 2012 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Thors can help snipe Colossi now, which can help in lategame TvP What? No they can't...they will always use the "thor cannon" versus colossi. They are no different than in WoL Longer range = everything. They outrange Colossi now. Also, something everyone seems to be forgetting in the BL vs Thor debate: You won't go mass Thor vs Mass BL. Other factors play in, like Hellions. Thor vs BL debate aside, b/c it is a big one. They don't outrange Colossi with thermal lance. Anyone that doesn't have thermal lance (in general) shouldn't be going colossus unless they have some one base timing up their sleeve. I see no change Colossi versus Thor. Colossus with Thermal Lance is range 9. HIP is range 10.
Your Thor Hammer is used to hit Colossi not HIP. HIP cannot hit Colossi and the Thor Hammer only has 7 range.
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The Aoe is most likely much better from the Javelin than the IAS on the HIP in terms of raw damage. I feel like it would be cool to have a High damage single target attack with like 3.5 second cooldown.
Edit: the armor argument is bad because you should assume equal attack upgrades, thus when you equip both sides equally the math is negated.
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Sometimes you might just want to target fire down the BLs. You don't necessarily wants to have splash to deal with corruptors or other flying units. HIP lets you target fire with (say 5 thors) and it can gun down couple BLs quite fast. Whereas, the javelin is much slower and less effective.
You might keep it in Javelin mode if you want, but when the BLs come spread out, it is too late to change mode.
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EPT
