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On December 10 2012 22:49 weikor wrote:
Even if this ability turns out to be situational. Can you really compain?
Pro
-Strike cannons where worse
-Energy is gone
-Additional single target damage
-looks cool
Cons
...
Yeah i don't really get the complaint either. Thors not having an energy bar anymore and actually having an ability that does something is a massive buff considering they weren't that bad of a unit in the first place. They were bulky and very much ineffective vs non light air unit, now that the scale has been changed and they gained HIP with the combination of mech upgrades affecting air and ground i think they are pretty damn good, just not in a vacuum.
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On December 10 2012 22:49 weikor wrote:
Even if this ability turns out to be situational. Can you really compain?
Pro
-Strike cannons where worse
-Energy is gone
-Additional single target damage
-looks cool
Cons
...
Well the cons might be ...
- its not a "click and something nifty happens" ability, so it is kinda not exciting,
- its not doing enough damage yet OR - if buffed - it could easily be too much damage. The Thor is 6 supply and should deal enough damage to be able to fight 1.5 Broodlords at 4 supply (if you just take the supply). Increasing the damage accordingly would probably be too much for such a high hit point unit. The BW Goliath was a much smaller "dose" and thus probably easier to balance against its counterparts.
Personally I would have liked the following change to the AA attack of the Thor best:
- The old splash attack is removed and replaced by 4 shots of X damage (no bonus damage restrictions) which hit separate targets - if avalable - OR a single target if only one is around OR the Thor is told to attack that unit. This would add a lot of decisions to the Thor, remove the abusive magic boxing (which made the Thor useless against the unit it was designed against) and allows for a relatively high amount of single target damage.
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You could deal with Broodlords if you were ahead on upgrades with the Javelin already. The HIP removes this need to be ahead in upgrades as it is a single hit, the trade of is no splash. If they would make it considerably stronger, then someone that could already deal with Broodlords by using Javelines, would just rip Broodlords and that would deny this techtree completely.
If you don't know how to get past Broodlings with your Thors, you should probably rely on Vikings. It is quiet troubling to get them in range, but if you managed it the Broodlords will take losses. In TvZ you need many Thors anyway against a Broodlord Corruptor army, so it is quiet effective to still have a few Javelins out to focus clumps.
Anyway I think HIP is working fine. But it is not really smart to only rely on one fire mode. The best Anti Air combination for Terran is anyway Viking/Thor with Raven support. Especially since they share their upgrade snow. Of course it is always a matter of control.
I like that the Thors needs abit more decision making and that the micro against "capital ships" got a bit more rewarding.
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In my honest opinion:
- HSM/Yamato needs to have splash to differentiate, and none of the Terran air units deal splash.
- Thor HIM is a start, but needs to be more functionally different to the Thor's current AA ability; maybe buff the damage and add a cool vulnerability(??) idk.
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Did some testing of my own.
On December 11 2012 07:24 Came Norrection wrote:
HIP counters corrupters.
Depends purely on the situation, if you have corruptors not moving around with each other, just standing there still and shooting you will notice that they die faster with HIP.
However, as is often the case players do move their army around. Often for micro reasons and sometimes for slight misclicks. Since corruptors like many other units clump up even for small steps the javelin will often do more damage thanks to splash.
So in theory HIP will win but in reality the javelin work better against corruptors, in most cases at least.
But as I mentioned it depends on the situation. If you're up against a lot of corruptors I can guarantee that javelin will do more total damage. If it's just 5-7 units HIP will most likely be better but not with much.
I like this change. Now Thors will be a lot more viable against protoss and a great soft counter against brood lords. Vikings will always be the true counter against air units as terran but now Thors can be a great addition to the main army with HIP. I hope this change stays and I don't see a reason to buff the damage either atm but as everything else it will need more field testing.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Has anyone actually managed to get HiP to actually work against broodlords in a game?
Every time I try it I suffer the same problem as before with the Thors bugging out on the broodlings and never attacking constantly.
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IMO HIP is pretty decent against armor-type units but still prefer to use vikings to take those broodlords tempest carriers down than HIP. Now the upgrades for both Mech and Air units so vikings damage much more better when those heavy armor-types unit come out. HIP damage isn't really good against air and has no AoE, short range.
In TvZ: Few thors for defend muta early and support army later, however the core of mech army is still Helions and Sieged tanks. Zergs easily get rid of thors by switching to mass roaches and Ultralisks play.
In TvP: The best thing is Engery bar has gone ( Thanks Blizzard ), so that make thors much more stronger in this matchup with helions ghosts and few vikings.
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The main difference of the High Impact Payload upgrade is that it deals 24 flat damage to air units, like how others before me have already explained. I think they made it this way so that Thors become more viable against small numbers of Brood Lords, while they work up to transition to Viking or Ravens.
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On December 08 2012 21:56 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 18:48 Vindicare605 wrote:On December 08 2012 11:20 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Since Blizz combined the mech & air upgrades, I don't think the Thor needs to be an exceptional anti-air unit. I'm with this guy. I think the HIP Cannons make the Thor a more useful anti-air unit vs larger enemies (if only slightly)due to the armor issue but I don't think they're meant to completely invalidate Vikings especially now that Vikings are so much more accessible with shared upgrades. At the end of the day too regardless of how effective 250cannons are, there's 2 points that can't really be argued against. 1. HIP is fucking cool. Seeing Thors walking around with giant cannons on their shoulders is AWESOME. 2. Thors lost their energy bar. Which means HTs can't feedback them anymore. That alone is a huge plus with the new system. Vikings REALLY are a terrible concept, because they become pretty much useless the moment when all air opponents are dead. This is a fate they share with the Corruptor, except the Corruptor still has a moderately useful but annoying to use spell. Landing Vikings and using them as cannon fodder is a waste IMO unless you are on the brink of winning, since they cost a lot of gas to reproduce and if the Zerg/Protoss goes for a full size ground army (without Colossi) their usefulness is at an end. Giving a "looks cool" as a reason for thinking the change is great is simply typical for this time. Its all about the looks and not the content. The change for HIP is nice, but the Thor is still terrible as AA when compared to the Goliath and its relationship with the Guardian. Since Blizzard has reduced the size of the Thor as well it seems they try to make it more like the Goliath, but its not enough. [I wonder if they reduced the size of the Odin in the campaign as well, hehe.]
With the shared armory upgrades, the viking gets indirectly buffed. You can build a handful of vikings to help fight corruptors. Since in many cases you have starports anyway, you can get AA more quickly with producing thors at fax and vikings at the port.
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On December 08 2012 11:22 doffe wrote:
so what are we discussing here? Obviously the 24damage one with 2s CD is better then the 6*4 damage one with 3s CD against broods since they ahve the same range?. Is this even a topic... Noone is claiming that its awsome and counter unit x w/e but that its better isnt really in question, its pretty damn obvious given the numbers.
We're discussing how people are smart, of course.
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I think this is a great addition to the thor. As most of you have concluded in the thread, the HIP is great under different circumstances which I like since it makes the player have to make a decision wether to use it or not. What would be most effective would probably be to have a mix of thors with javelins and HIP.
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Why is people thinking that thors should counter broodlords ? They shouldn't, they are now a bulky multipurpose unit, not a direct counter to anything specifically speaking aside light air if clumped up. The new strike cannon make them more multipurpose, which it is it's role imho. The only thing i find it's missing from the thor, is the ability to shoot air + ground at the same time.
Vikings are our direct counter to broodlords. Ravens to corruptors, and micro/spread to fungal since now it has 8 range and it is a projectile.
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Indeed, the thor is not cost effective versus broods, but they can do a bit better now in the new mode.
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If they just gave the Thor resistance to splash damage it would have a nice role as mech's meathshield.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 11 2012 18:59 Zrana wrote:
If they just gave the Thor resistance to splash damage it would have a nice role as mech's meathshield.
It's not even Splash that's an issue with the thor, it's just stuff like broodlings really mucking up their movement AI.
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On December 11 2012 19:01 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2012 18:59 Zrana wrote:
If they just gave the Thor resistance to splash damage it would have a nice role as mech's meathshield. It's not even Splash that's an issue with the thor, it's just stuff like broodlings really mucking up their movement AI.
Which is why you need hellbats in front to deal with those. I still don't see the problem here, thors with HIP are a step in the right direction without being OP. They shouldn't be the best solution to carriers and broodlords but at least they aren't completely useless against them anymore. Vikings and the new and improved raven in combination with the new thors should be more than enough to deal with broodlord infestor and the inevitable carrier/tempest/void ray/whatever comp that protoss will go for vs mech.
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On December 11 2012 09:24 Qikz wrote:
Has anyone actually managed to get HiP to actually work against broodlords in a game?
Every time I try it I suffer the same problem as before with the Thors bugging out on the broodlings and never attacking constantly.
I think same rules apply that exist in WOL, that means you need hellions to deal with broodlings, you need to repair the thors and vikings are necessary if the BL numbers get out of hand.
Gotta understand the zerg POV too, broodlord tech is expensive and if thors just flat-out countered them they would never be made again.
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You guys are greedy. 3-3 vikings and an anti air-armored thor (dont forget the mode switches to a 2sec only cooldown) isn't enought?
PS - Also feedback no longer destroys thors
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EPT
