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On December 08 2012 12:17 bhfberserk wrote:
Sometimes you might just want to target fire down the BLs. You don't necessarily wants to have splash to deal with corruptors or other flying units. HIP lets you target fire with (say 5 thors) and it can gun down couple BLs quite fast. Whereas, the javelin is much slower and less effective.
You might keep it in Javelin mode if you want, but when the BLs come spread out, it is too late to change mode.
I'll let you know when I see a single, spreadout, BL army come without any support 
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On December 08 2012 11:42 LgNKami wrote:
I feel that the only thing that needed to be removed from the thor was really the energy. The HIP is kinda.. pointless. It looks cool but I (imo) would much rather use the javelin missles seeing that they do splash. I feel HIP kind of overlaps with Vikings.
good point. Thor/Banshee 2-base timings become viable again without feedback. Interesting concept.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
Pointing out that a bunch of Thors doesn't beat a bunch of Brood Lords with this new ability is meaningless. Why should they, and how is that a realistic scenario? Very often the Mech player will have a ground force to deal with the broodlings and tank some of them.
It's simple: The numbers are there - against non light units it does ~50% more DPS. (there are some particulars like the splash benefits from upgrades by 1 damage more per upgrade, but that still doesn't make up for the 50% slower attack).
I do agree it's a fairly niche attack and nothing amazing or game changing. Splash is so good vs Air units that vs multiple non-light units it could still be better to use the splash attack, as just one splash on one other unit doubles your damage for that attack, so it can quickly overcome that 50% slower attack rate. Still, it's unarguable that it's an improvement over the splash attack in some situations.
But with this new shared air upgrades, I really don't understand the argument that Thors ALSO need to have some amazing non-light attack.
Once again, your Brood Lord example is meaningless - the numbers speak for themselves. And a good opponent won't clump them up very often. It's up to you to decide if you want to take that chance to exploit your opponent clumping, or you want to play it safe and have a decently better attack if they don't mess up.
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On December 08 2012 11:36 SirPinky wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 11:26 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
This should really go into simple questions and answers
High Impact Payload attacks 50% faster
It does better against units with high armor (like Carrier)
It also is better to use High Impact Payload if you are behind in upgrades (unlikely, but possible if you're behind)
I've done lots of tests with huge army sizes with T and P deathballs (thors tanks BCs ravens, carriers voidrays colossi stalkers), and with just basic spreading (only a second spent splitting, so it's doable any time in a real game), the High Impact Payload kept coming out with a noticeable advantage, despite how much clumping there still was.
Perhaps you might want half your thors in explosive, half in high impact, to make him worry about not clumping his units, and maybe it is better if you target fire with the explosive thors to parts of the army that clump a lot. It could be cool seeing this kind of decision making. This does not belong in simple question simple answer. Please get off your high horse. One does splash the other does not - both do similar damage with HIP having less cooldown. So is +1 cooldown better than splash, not to mention if light units are involved in a engagement is it worth the risk even having the cannon activated. This is far more technical than many of you are letting on.
It's as simple as testing it out in a unit tester yourself, and seeing the results. Many of the questions asked in Simple questions and answers are like that. "Does X beat Y with this in this situation"
Also, even David Kim explained that the purpose was for it to do better against armored air units. That pretty much answers the thread. He didn't say it directly but the meaning is implied
As such, we’ve given the Thor a new weapon that can be swapped with its anti-light, AoE weapon when it may be more useful for a particular situation. What isn't anti-light and AOE is a weapon that is better against non-light (basically, armored) units and has no AOE.
On December 08 2012 11:27 GattAttack wrote:
Wouldn't HIP scale much better into the late game as opposed to the javelin? In the early game where armour values are small, of course having the splash anti-air will be more useful (and it's more geared towards mid game units like mutalisks anyway), but as your enemy gains more armour upgrades and beefier units the javelin becomes quite pitiful.
What I'm trying to say is that the way the upgrades for the javelin work are +1 * 4, so actually for every weapon upgrade you get, your opponent getting an armour upgrade makes it a moot point. However for the HIP you just get a flat +4 damage, so for equal upgrades you're getting 3 extra damage. Including the increase in the weapon speed, this will make thor's anti-air scale incredibly well against armoured targets, something that mech really needed as the javelin becomes rather terrible against late game armies (and the thor is supposed to be a late game unit!).
Overall perhaps the numbers will need to change, but the tradeoff of increased DPS and scalability for splash seems really interesting and will lead to a lot more player experimentation with the thor. Which is pretty cool.
They increase by 4? wow, then yes you're right
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
They increase by 4? wow, then yes you're right
He is incorrect. The non-splash attack increases by 2, not 4. So it get's only a +3 (1 extra because it attacks 50% more in the same time frame) increase in DPS compared to the Splash attack which gets a +4. Even with +3 upgrades this difference isn't significant enough to make the Splash better in a situation where it already wasn't, and vice versa.
Of course what GattAttack said is true though - because it increases by a flat 2 instead of 1*4, the upgrades aren't cancelled out if the opponent only matches you in Armor upgrades.
I would just like to point out that in the late game, vs any decent number of air units, clumping is almost an inevitability. Just one instance of splash at all with the attack almost without fail will make the splash attack a better option in late game engagements vs anything but perhaps BC's and Carriers - who tend to clump the least and have particularly high base armor.
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What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same.
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On December 08 2012 13:28 ZjiublingZ wrote:He is incorrect. The non-splash attack increases by 2, not 4. So it get's only a +3 (1 extra because it attacks 50% more in the same time frame) increase in DPS compared to the Splash attack which gets a +4. Even with +3 upgrades this difference isn't significant enough to make the Splash better in a situation where it already wasn't, and vice versa. Of course what GattAttack said is true though - because it increases by a flat 2 instead of 1*4, the upgrades aren't cancelled out if the opponent only matches you in Armor upgrades. I would just like to point out that in the late game, vs any decent number of air units, clumping is almost an inevitability. Just one instance of splash at all with the attack almost without fail will make the splash attack a better option in late game engagements vs anything but perhaps BC's and Carriers - who tend to clump the least and have particularly high base armor.
Ah, ok I see, that's nice. Yeah, against units like voids and phoenix and even BL and corruptor (unless in small numbers) splash will probably be good. I tested it out against a bunch of carriers (clumped) and the splash was so little.
I got a question about the splash actually, I think i'm confusing it with the [old?] ultra splash mechanics.
So if you hit a carrier, and the next carrier is further than 0.5 away from the center of the first carrier, does it get splashed? Or does the outside of the unit have to be within 0.5 of the outside of the other?
On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same.
As they noted, I think it's just to buff mech in general. Both Thors and Vikings are stronger now. This makes it less unforgiving too, if you happen to not have enough vikings out on the map and have only thors for AA. I like this direction of being more forgiving.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same.
If I had to guess? It's because Thors are becoming less useful in HotS, while other races air units are becoming stronger. What with the Widow Mine providing another anti-air option for Mech, Thors being pretty bad against almost every Protoss air unit (even with the bonus damage vs Phoenix and Oracles, I personally would prefer to have Vikings against at least the Oracles because of their mobility). And Protoss air units only getting considerably stronger (except the Tempest). Not to mention in vs Zerg Swarm Hosts can really force the T away from making any more than 2-3 Thors, the same is true for Roach/Hydra. Honestly I don't see Thors being a very common unit to make with or without this buff, might as well give them this extra utility. Not to mention it puts in place an attack they can buff if they decide to alter the Mech + Air shared upgrades - because this could very well be too strong.
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its slightly better vs bl's and corruptors and amazingly better vs bc cuz of bc high armor. Still both bc and bl beat thor(supply/cost).
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On December 08 2012 13:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same. If I had to guess? It's because Thors are becoming less useful in HotS, while other races air units are becoming stronger. What with the Widow Mine providing another anti-air option for Mech, Thors being pretty bad against almost every Protoss air unit (even with the bonus damage vs Phoenix and Oracles, I personally would prefer to have Vikings against at least the Oracles because of their mobility). And Protoss air units only getting considerably stronger (except the Tempest). Not to mention in vs Zerg Swarm Hosts can really force the T away from making any more than 2-3 Thors, the same is true for Roach/Hydra. Honestly I don't see Thors being a very common unit to make with or without this buff, might as well give them this extra utility. Not to mention it puts in place an attack they can buff if they decide to alter the Mech + Air shared upgrades - because this could very well be too strong.
I guess that might be it. I'd like to see a more complete Thor redesign in that case, though. Maybe as a kind of anti-Archon unit, because that seems like what Mech struggles with.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 14:11 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 13:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same. If I had to guess? It's because Thors are becoming less useful in HotS, while other races air units are becoming stronger. What with the Widow Mine providing another anti-air option for Mech, Thors being pretty bad against almost every Protoss air unit (even with the bonus damage vs Phoenix and Oracles, I personally would prefer to have Vikings against at least the Oracles because of their mobility). And Protoss air units only getting considerably stronger (except the Tempest). Not to mention in vs Zerg Swarm Hosts can really force the T away from making any more than 2-3 Thors, the same is true for Roach/Hydra. Honestly I don't see Thors being a very common unit to make with or without this buff, might as well give them this extra utility. Not to mention it puts in place an attack they can buff if they decide to alter the Mech + Air shared upgrades - because this could very well be too strong. I guess that might be it. I'd like to see a more complete Thor redesign in that case, though. Maybe as a kind of anti-Archon unit, because that seems like what Mech struggles with.
lol Thors basically are an anti-Archon unit. They trade with them SO well. But I understand your point - the unit doesn't feel totally fitting compared to many other units, especially in the Mech composition. I think we should really see how things shake out though first before we conclude they should be scrapped. It isn't as if players are going to make 0 Thors in any match-up. ZvT for obvious reasons, ZvP they are still good to have a few of in a maxed army because of their HP and blocking ability, and still having good DPS. In TvT they are pretty meh, but can be useful for defending from air switches when you lack the appropriate Starport production (same goes for vs Protoss and Zerg). Going for a redesign of them would be pretty bold and it's hard to think of the effects it could have on every match-up.
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On December 08 2012 14:17 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 14:11 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 13:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same. If I had to guess? It's because Thors are becoming less useful in HotS, while other races air units are becoming stronger. What with the Widow Mine providing another anti-air option for Mech, Thors being pretty bad against almost every Protoss air unit (even with the bonus damage vs Phoenix and Oracles, I personally would prefer to have Vikings against at least the Oracles because of their mobility). And Protoss air units only getting considerably stronger (except the Tempest). Not to mention in vs Zerg Swarm Hosts can really force the T away from making any more than 2-3 Thors, the same is true for Roach/Hydra. Honestly I don't see Thors being a very common unit to make with or without this buff, might as well give them this extra utility. Not to mention it puts in place an attack they can buff if they decide to alter the Mech + Air shared upgrades - because this could very well be too strong. I guess that might be it. I'd like to see a more complete Thor redesign in that case, though. Maybe as a kind of anti-Archon unit, because that seems like what Mech struggles with. lol Thors basically are an anti-Archon unit. They trade with them SO well. But I understand your point - the unit doesn't feel totally fitting compared to many other units, especially in the Mech composition. I think we should really see how things shake out though first before we conclude they should be scrapped. It isn't as if players are going to make 0 Thors in any match-up. ZvT for obvious reasons, ZvP they are still good to have a few of in a maxed army because of their HP and blocking ability, and still having good DPS. In TvT they are pretty meh, but can be useful for defending from air switches when you lack the appropriate Starport production (same goes for vs Protoss and Zerg). Going for a redesign of them would be pretty bold and it's hard to think of the effects it could have on every match-up.
It's about how FAST they trade with Archons. Archons aren't good against mech because they do a ton of damage. That's the job of Zealots and Immortals. They're good because they soak up immense amounts of damage. Ever since BW, mech has always been a glass cannon strategy. You pray that your Tanks and Vultures can do enough damage before the enemy closes in, because once they do you're in serious trouble. Thors are bulky and as such trade excellently against Archons, but that's not what they need to win the battle.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 14:25 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 14:17 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 14:11 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 13:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same. If I had to guess? It's because Thors are becoming less useful in HotS, while other races air units are becoming stronger. What with the Widow Mine providing another anti-air option for Mech, Thors being pretty bad against almost every Protoss air unit (even with the bonus damage vs Phoenix and Oracles, I personally would prefer to have Vikings against at least the Oracles because of their mobility). And Protoss air units only getting considerably stronger (except the Tempest). Not to mention in vs Zerg Swarm Hosts can really force the T away from making any more than 2-3 Thors, the same is true for Roach/Hydra. Honestly I don't see Thors being a very common unit to make with or without this buff, might as well give them this extra utility. Not to mention it puts in place an attack they can buff if they decide to alter the Mech + Air shared upgrades - because this could very well be too strong. I guess that might be it. I'd like to see a more complete Thor redesign in that case, though. Maybe as a kind of anti-Archon unit, because that seems like what Mech struggles with. lol Thors basically are an anti-Archon unit. They trade with them SO well. But I understand your point - the unit doesn't feel totally fitting compared to many other units, especially in the Mech composition. I think we should really see how things shake out though first before we conclude they should be scrapped. It isn't as if players are going to make 0 Thors in any match-up. ZvT for obvious reasons, ZvP they are still good to have a few of in a maxed army because of their HP and blocking ability, and still having good DPS. In TvT they are pretty meh, but can be useful for defending from air switches when you lack the appropriate Starport production (same goes for vs Protoss and Zerg). Going for a redesign of them would be pretty bold and it's hard to think of the effects it could have on every match-up. It's about how FAST they trade with Archons. Archons aren't good against mech because they do a ton of damage. That's the job of Zealots and Immortals. They're good because they soak up immense amounts of damage. Ever since BW, mech has always been a glass cannon strategy. You pray that your Tanks and Vultures can do enough damage before the enemy closes in, because once they do you're in serious trouble. Thors are bulky and as such trade excellently against Archons, but that's not what they need to win the battle.
I totally agree, Archons are pretty good vs Mech because of their non-armored type and high hit points. Still, they aren't that scary by any means and I don't think it's something that Mech needs a better counter for, not at all. Even with their new bonus damage against Battle-Hellions. Archons are really used just because they are the best gas dump in the mineral heavy anti-Mech Protoss composition of Immortal/Chargelot (and they of course are made from HT who are fairly useful vs Mech). Thors got a big buff vs Templar tech by the energy removal anyways.
Once again, I think it's extremely premature to say Thors should be redesigned - especially as an anti-Archon unit. They may end up being quite strong as Mech vs Protoss as is.
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On December 08 2012 14:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 14:25 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 14:17 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 14:11 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 13:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same. If I had to guess? It's because Thors are becoming less useful in HotS, while other races air units are becoming stronger. What with the Widow Mine providing another anti-air option for Mech, Thors being pretty bad against almost every Protoss air unit (even with the bonus damage vs Phoenix and Oracles, I personally would prefer to have Vikings against at least the Oracles because of their mobility). And Protoss air units only getting considerably stronger (except the Tempest). Not to mention in vs Zerg Swarm Hosts can really force the T away from making any more than 2-3 Thors, the same is true for Roach/Hydra. Honestly I don't see Thors being a very common unit to make with or without this buff, might as well give them this extra utility. Not to mention it puts in place an attack they can buff if they decide to alter the Mech + Air shared upgrades - because this could very well be too strong. I guess that might be it. I'd like to see a more complete Thor redesign in that case, though. Maybe as a kind of anti-Archon unit, because that seems like what Mech struggles with. lol Thors basically are an anti-Archon unit. They trade with them SO well. But I understand your point - the unit doesn't feel totally fitting compared to many other units, especially in the Mech composition. I think we should really see how things shake out though first before we conclude they should be scrapped. It isn't as if players are going to make 0 Thors in any match-up. ZvT for obvious reasons, ZvP they are still good to have a few of in a maxed army because of their HP and blocking ability, and still having good DPS. In TvT they are pretty meh, but can be useful for defending from air switches when you lack the appropriate Starport production (same goes for vs Protoss and Zerg). Going for a redesign of them would be pretty bold and it's hard to think of the effects it could have on every match-up. It's about how FAST they trade with Archons. Archons aren't good against mech because they do a ton of damage. That's the job of Zealots and Immortals. They're good because they soak up immense amounts of damage. Ever since BW, mech has always been a glass cannon strategy. You pray that your Tanks and Vultures can do enough damage before the enemy closes in, because once they do you're in serious trouble. Thors are bulky and as such trade excellently against Archons, but that's not what they need to win the battle. I totally agree, Archons are pretty good vs Mech because of their non-armored type and high hit points. Still, they aren't that scary by any means and I don't think it's something that Mech needs a better counter for, not at all. Even with their new bonus damage against Battle-Hellions. Archons are really used just because they are the best gas dump in the mineral heavy anti-Mech Protoss composition of Immortal/Chargelot (and they of course are made from HT who are fairly useful vs Mech). Thors got a big buff vs Templar tech by the energy removal anyways. Once again, I think it's extremely premature to say Thors should be redesigned - especially as an anti-Archon unit. They may end up being quite strong as Mech vs Protoss as is.
Perhaps. I'm still just really unexcited about where the Thor currently is. It just doesn't seem to offer as much to the game as it ought to.
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 08 2012 14:39 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 14:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 14:25 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 14:17 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 14:11 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 13:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same. If I had to guess? It's because Thors are becoming less useful in HotS, while other races air units are becoming stronger. What with the Widow Mine providing another anti-air option for Mech, Thors being pretty bad against almost every Protoss air unit (even with the bonus damage vs Phoenix and Oracles, I personally would prefer to have Vikings against at least the Oracles because of their mobility). And Protoss air units only getting considerably stronger (except the Tempest). Not to mention in vs Zerg Swarm Hosts can really force the T away from making any more than 2-3 Thors, the same is true for Roach/Hydra. Honestly I don't see Thors being a very common unit to make with or without this buff, might as well give them this extra utility. Not to mention it puts in place an attack they can buff if they decide to alter the Mech + Air shared upgrades - because this could very well be too strong. I guess that might be it. I'd like to see a more complete Thor redesign in that case, though. Maybe as a kind of anti-Archon unit, because that seems like what Mech struggles with. lol Thors basically are an anti-Archon unit. They trade with them SO well. But I understand your point - the unit doesn't feel totally fitting compared to many other units, especially in the Mech composition. I think we should really see how things shake out though first before we conclude they should be scrapped. It isn't as if players are going to make 0 Thors in any match-up. ZvT for obvious reasons, ZvP they are still good to have a few of in a maxed army because of their HP and blocking ability, and still having good DPS. In TvT they are pretty meh, but can be useful for defending from air switches when you lack the appropriate Starport production (same goes for vs Protoss and Zerg). Going for a redesign of them would be pretty bold and it's hard to think of the effects it could have on every match-up. It's about how FAST they trade with Archons. Archons aren't good against mech because they do a ton of damage. That's the job of Zealots and Immortals. They're good because they soak up immense amounts of damage. Ever since BW, mech has always been a glass cannon strategy. You pray that your Tanks and Vultures can do enough damage before the enemy closes in, because once they do you're in serious trouble. Thors are bulky and as such trade excellently against Archons, but that's not what they need to win the battle. I totally agree, Archons are pretty good vs Mech because of their non-armored type and high hit points. Still, they aren't that scary by any means and I don't think it's something that Mech needs a better counter for, not at all. Even with their new bonus damage against Battle-Hellions. Archons are really used just because they are the best gas dump in the mineral heavy anti-Mech Protoss composition of Immortal/Chargelot (and they of course are made from HT who are fairly useful vs Mech). Thors got a big buff vs Templar tech by the energy removal anyways. Once again, I think it's extremely premature to say Thors should be redesigned - especially as an anti-Archon unit. They may end up being quite strong as Mech vs Protoss as is. Perhaps. I'm still just really unexcited about where the Thor currently is. It just doesn't seem to offer as much to the game as it ought to.
I can understand that sentiment for sure, but we will have to see how much it does indeed offer to the game once things really pan out.
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1 Thor vs 1 BL
Thor dies, and BL has 40%HP left if Thor uses missiles.
BL dies, and Thor has like a few HP, if Thor uses punisher cannon.
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On December 08 2012 14:42 ZjiublingZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 14:39 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 14:33 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 14:25 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 14:17 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 14:11 Acritter wrote:On December 08 2012 13:56 ZjiublingZ wrote:On December 08 2012 13:39 Acritter wrote:
What I don't understand about it is the overlap with Vikings. Merged upgrades gives pretty much no reason to not just build the damn Vikings. The Broods can't hit 'em. Yeah, they have to deal with Corruptors and Infestors, but that's just not quite the same. If I had to guess? It's because Thors are becoming less useful in HotS, while other races air units are becoming stronger. What with the Widow Mine providing another anti-air option for Mech, Thors being pretty bad against almost every Protoss air unit (even with the bonus damage vs Phoenix and Oracles, I personally would prefer to have Vikings against at least the Oracles because of their mobility). And Protoss air units only getting considerably stronger (except the Tempest). Not to mention in vs Zerg Swarm Hosts can really force the T away from making any more than 2-3 Thors, the same is true for Roach/Hydra. Honestly I don't see Thors being a very common unit to make with or without this buff, might as well give them this extra utility. Not to mention it puts in place an attack they can buff if they decide to alter the Mech + Air shared upgrades - because this could very well be too strong. I guess that might be it. I'd like to see a more complete Thor redesign in that case, though. Maybe as a kind of anti-Archon unit, because that seems like what Mech struggles with. lol Thors basically are an anti-Archon unit. They trade with them SO well. But I understand your point - the unit doesn't feel totally fitting compared to many other units, especially in the Mech composition. I think we should really see how things shake out though first before we conclude they should be scrapped. It isn't as if players are going to make 0 Thors in any match-up. ZvT for obvious reasons, ZvP they are still good to have a few of in a maxed army because of their HP and blocking ability, and still having good DPS. In TvT they are pretty meh, but can be useful for defending from air switches when you lack the appropriate Starport production (same goes for vs Protoss and Zerg). Going for a redesign of them would be pretty bold and it's hard to think of the effects it could have on every match-up. It's about how FAST they trade with Archons. Archons aren't good against mech because they do a ton of damage. That's the job of Zealots and Immortals. They're good because they soak up immense amounts of damage. Ever since BW, mech has always been a glass cannon strategy. You pray that your Tanks and Vultures can do enough damage before the enemy closes in, because once they do you're in serious trouble. Thors are bulky and as such trade excellently against Archons, but that's not what they need to win the battle. I totally agree, Archons are pretty good vs Mech because of their non-armored type and high hit points. Still, they aren't that scary by any means and I don't think it's something that Mech needs a better counter for, not at all. Even with their new bonus damage against Battle-Hellions. Archons are really used just because they are the best gas dump in the mineral heavy anti-Mech Protoss composition of Immortal/Chargelot (and they of course are made from HT who are fairly useful vs Mech). Thors got a big buff vs Templar tech by the energy removal anyways. Once again, I think it's extremely premature to say Thors should be redesigned - especially as an anti-Archon unit. They may end up being quite strong as Mech vs Protoss as is. Perhaps. I'm still just really unexcited about where the Thor currently is. It just doesn't seem to offer as much to the game as it ought to. I can understand that sentiment for sure, but we will have to see how much it does indeed offer to the game once things really pan out.
Perhaps. They're so anti-micro it bugs me, though.
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now the question on my mind is does this ability work on collosi?
if it doesn't then it really should
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On December 08 2012 14:49 larse wrote:
1 Thor vs 1 BL
Thor dies, and BL has 40%HP left if Thor uses missiles.
BL dies, and Thor has like a few HP, if Thor uses punisher cannon.
then perhaps the best way to change the BL is to decrease the range from 9.5 to 9
and/or increase the supply cost of the morph to 4
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You know, while I would say the new ability is useful - certainly to the extent where pros could utilize it against massive air units - I don't think it's necessarily well designed, or at all exciting. It just feels kind of rushed, as if blizzard needed a quick way to show that it recognized the community's constenation at the uselessness of strike cannons and the energy bar, which made hts counter mech far too readily.
Blizzard should just retool the ability to be more like what strike cannons ought to have been ideally: a mode which, when toggled on, makes the Thor immobile but more powerful. Perhaps by buffing the damage output in HIP mode, making the Thor immobile like a sieged tank, but then increasing the thor's speed slightly when not in HIP mode.
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EPT
