EPT[D] Oracle changes seem overly powerful - Page 9
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baldgye
United Kingdom1108 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On December 08 2012 01:48 baldgye wrote: i'd rather have a spell like entomb, that works like a projectile for slowing down workers or something... lol god no. Entomb sucked. Pacifist harass doesn't work. Even if it can be balanced, there's no interesting micro by either the attacker or defender, and since the damage it does is all invisible rather than directly killing shit, there's no wow moment for spectators or satisfaction for the attacker. Its just boring. | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
On December 08 2012 01:44 awesomoecalypse wrote: Banshees cost 50 less gas, and have 50% more range, and can be upgraded with cloak. I dunno, the tradeoffs seem pretty reasonable: Banshee - cheaper, higher range, cloaked Oracle - most expensive, lower range and can't cloak, but gets higher dps, higher speed, gets support spells Don't forget cloak costs 200/200, so relative cost of the banshee in a realistic situation is higher. The oracle doesn't need to upgrade anything. I would say reduce the damage to light by 5-10 so that it no longer kills workers in 2 ticks, that should also make it look a lot nicer than what the OP linked. | ||
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baldgye
United Kingdom1108 Posts
On December 08 2012 01:49 awesomoecalypse wrote: lol god no. Entomb sucked. Pacifist harass doesn't work. Even if it can be balanced, there's no interesting micro by either the attacker or defender, and since the damage it does is all invisible rather than directly killing shit, there's no wow moment for spectators or satisfaction for the attacker. Its just boring. really? so everything has to die otherwise its boring?? entomb was bad becasue it was a shift que move that required no skill... i'd rather have the ability to use oricals to harass and do passsive dmg to force the guy to micro rather than ohh sorry u didnt have a turret u have no workers looool.... | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On December 08 2012 01:52 InoyouS2 wrote: Also can someone explain why those oracles killed the queen so damn quick? Last I checked queens aren't light. how many oracles we talking about? 2? 3? 4?.....banshees can kill queens without even taking damage aswell. that being said I can easily see its damage being changed to 10 +15 to light instead of 15 +10 to light Edit: oops your refering to video of 3 oracles, ok, well thats basicially 3 cloaked banshees or 4 uncloaked banshees (gas wise) queens die quickly | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On December 08 2012 01:52 InoyouS2 wrote: Also can someone explain why those oracles killed the queen so damn quick? Last I checked queens aren't light. 15 dmg x 3 oracke, only needs 4 ticks to kill . Def will be nerfed soon, dps is too high. Also, does this energy attack bypass armor? | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
really? so everything has to die otherwise its boring?? entomb was bad becasue it was a shift que move that required no skill... i'd rather have the ability to use oricals to harass and do passsive dmg to force the guy to micro rather than ohh sorry u didnt have a turret u have no workers looool.... Shit not dying is boring, yes. When units deal economic "damage" by delaying mining without actually hurting anything, all the damage is invisible. Units that hypothetically would have been built in some other game will not be built in this one. There's no actual event to get excited for, and its fairly unintuitive to figure out how much real damage has actually been dealt--when 5 workers are killed, the impact is immediately clear. When 5 workers are delayed from mining for a while and then resume, the impact is much murkier for spectators, and much less satisfying for the harassing player. So, yes, harassment should involve dealing damage. | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
On December 08 2012 01:57 SuperYo1000 wrote: how many oracles we talking about? 2? 3? 4?.....banshees can kill queens without even taking damage aswell. that being said I can easily see its damage being changed to 10 +15 to light instead of 15 +10 to light Edit: oops your refering to video of 3 oracles, ok, well thats basicially 3 cloaked banshees or 4 uncloaked banshees (gas wise) queens die quickly 3 cloaked banshees cost 500 gas, and they don't have any other abilities, whereas oracles do. That comparison is pushing it IMO, the damage is way too high compared to banshees at the moment. | ||
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Morton
United States152 Posts
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
On December 08 2012 01:57 RavenLoud wrote: 15 dmg x 3 oracke, only needs 4 ticks to kill . Def will be nerfed soon, dps is too high. Also, does this energy attack bypass armor? Yes. It seems to bypass armor. Testing it on marines, with 0 armor vs. 3 armor, their health chunks down in ticks of 25 regardless. The only thing that affects their survivability vs. oracles is combat shield which lets them live for 3 ticks instead of 2. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3134 Posts
On December 08 2012 02:06 InoyouS2 wrote: 3 cloaked banshees cost 500 gas, and they don't have any other abilities, whereas oracles do. That comparison is pushing it IMO, the damage is way too high compared to banshees at the moment. But the Oracle's other abilities compete for energy with its attack. A single Oracle has a lot less utility than you're letting on. It's attack is powerful, but limited by energy. A Banshee is only slightly less powerful and a little slower, but can attack indefinitely and cloak. It's not a matter of what's imbalanced or balanced, but that there are tradeoffs involved in each unit, which is exactly how it should be. The two units are not directly comparable. The question is not if Oracle's are too strong relative to Banshees, but if they're too strong period. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 08 2012 02:13 Morton wrote: I would agree that the dps vs workers is pretty insane, but it is kind of a given that with such huge changes there are going to be some op units,I forsee the dps getting pulled back slightly, but scouting getting spores and turrets up in time should be able do decently well against this The unit is also capped at the amount of damage it can do. Once it is out of enegry, its a flying paperweight until it gets enough to do damage again. Also, it will be no help if a zerg goes hydras in response to a stargate, since the protoss's ground army at that time will be garbage. I think zergs will respond to them much the same way protoss respond to mutas: Saying "Oh thats the game we are playing, huh? I've dealt with this before." | ||
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LavaLava
United States235 Posts
On December 08 2012 02:13 Morton wrote: I would agree that the dps vs workers is pretty insane, but it is kind of a given that with such huge changes there are going to be some op units,I forsee the dps getting pulled back slightly, but scouting getting spores and turrets up in time should be able do decently well against this Well, since Spores have 1 armor, Oracles and Banshees actually have almost the same exact DPS versus the Spores. So if you get 4 Oracles they can really quickly snipe spores. Like in 5 seconds. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On December 08 2012 03:43 LavaLava wrote: Well, since Spores have 1 armor, Oracles and Banshees actually have almost the same exact DPS versus the Spores. So if you get 4 Oracles they can really quickly snipe spores. Like in 5 seconds. 4 Oracles costs 600/600 and 200 seconds of build time (not counting CB). An investment like that should be scary. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
zerg and terran can do the same damage, if not more, with the same amount of resources. like always, people are overreacting. | ||
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dragonblade369
Canada464 Posts
On December 08 2012 02:06 InoyouS2 wrote: 3 cloaked banshees cost 500 gas, and they don't have any other abilities, whereas oracles do. That comparison is pushing it IMO, the damage is way too high compared to banshees at the moment. Now you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Do you know the difference between the range of those two units? The range difference is huge! The range effectively dictates the squishiness of an air unit as Oracle cannot hit units without getting hit, despite its high speed. You talk about the utility of the Oracles other than harassing. I agree that it has other utilities, if it manages to survive. On top of that, if an Oracle is harassing, it cannot use its utility spell as both harassing and utility uses energy. This means that in order to use the other spells, the oracles have to stop harassing, which makes your point a moot. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On December 08 2012 04:01 awesomoecalypse wrote: 4 Oracles costs 600/600 and 200 seconds of build time (not counting CB). An investment like that should be scary. you mean as scary as 6-8 mutas?  and they are useful in lategame stages with timewarp and revelation. so the investment is not too high. so yes their DPS is too high now but that is just a balance thing and can be adjust easily. i think their new attack is awesome designwise. it forces micro to do it. it forces micro to defend it if you defend with units or good scouting and positioning if you defend it with queens + spores, turrets/mines, cannons + stalker. but i think the oracle has a design flaw which is timewarp. deathball already kills everything on the ground that isnt airheavy. so why give protoss yet another antiground AoE spell which also has the downside of negating micro? i really hope they change that and give the oracle another non-micropreventing, non-deathballspell/mechanic. | ||
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Ramone
Canada85 Posts
What's the earliest an oracle can come up in an expand build? 7.5 minutes for one maybe? I like the fact that you have to respond a little to these unlike with phoenix, where you basically smirk and go back to droning after making an extra queen or two along with a spore per base. Although that exact same reaction would probably shut down pure oracle harass...it's only when you start throwing in voids that it takes more of a response from the zerg. Ah well, maybe it'll get toned back a tiny notch...but I certainly love the idea of actually having an airborne harass unit that is actually scary and requires a real reaction from my opponent. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
How about moving the damage to 5(+15 light) so they still 2 shot workers, and also increase the time between damage "pulses"? Though maybe it has to be 10(+15 light) because I'm not sure if drone regen would make 5(+15 light) require 3 shots. Either way, increasing the time between damage pulses, should keep them pretty effective vs workers, but much less effective vs other things. However, this might reintroduce the problem of "If you open Stargate to harass, a Tier 1 counter rush can just straight up kill you" which is one of the main reasons Stargate openings can be so risky, especially vs Terran | ||
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