EPTYou can't really use them in fights with anti-air because of how fragile they are, you have to time warp and get them out of there. They're also 3 supply each and 150/150, more expensive than a banshee. They run out of energy fast too.
[D] Oracle changes seem overly powerful - Page 7
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
You can't really use them in fights with anti-air because of how fragile they are, you have to time warp and get them out of there. They're also 3 supply each and 150/150, more expensive than a banshee. They run out of energy fast too. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
It's still a good lead off to get some harass done and scout out what's going on, then go from there. | ||
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Nadril
68 Posts
Oracle vs Hydra: Oracle seems to always win a 1:1 fight (supply wise) with hydras. The oracles were 1 armor 1 shield, hydras were 1 weapon 1 armor. Even against 3 weapon 3 armor hydras (and 3 armor+3 shield oracles) the oracles win with 30 supply left out of a 48 supply start. Oracle vs Marine: With 33 supply of oracles 0/0 vs 33 supply of marines 0/0 (combat shield+stim) the oracles won with 6 supply left. With 3 armor 3 shield oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and both at 102 supply, the oracles win with 22 supply left. Oracles vs Marine+Medvac: With 81 supply each, 3 shield 3 armor oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and 5 medvacs (no upgrade) the oracles won with 16 supply left. With the same values BUT the medvac upgrade, the marines barely win with 3 marines left. So obviously the biggest thing is oracles cost a LOT more than any of these other units. Still for the most part they win by a massive landslide which means that air toss might be a possibility. It's cool to see that they are so strong against T1+T2 light units. The biggest thing is it seems like the oracle doesn't benefit from weapon upgrades so they aren't going to be as strong in a fully upgraded fight. They seem perfectly good though (A lot better than I thought) in a straight up fight though early. | ||
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unteqair
United States308 Posts
On December 07 2012 17:04 Nadril wrote: So I was curious about how well the oracle could be used in a straight up fight. I'm in the unit tester now and testing with 0 micro from both sides. So far I've found: Oracle vs Hydra: Oracle seems to always win a 1:1 fight (supply wise) with hydras. The oracles were 1 armor 1 shield, hydras were 1 weapon 1 armor. Even against 3 weapon 3 armor hydras (and 3 armor+3 shield oracles) the oracles win with 30 supply left out of a 48 supply start. Oracle vs Marine: With 33 supply of oracles 0/0 vs 33 supply of marines 0/0 (combat shield+stim) the oracles won with 6 supply left. With 3 armor 3 shield oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and both at 102 supply, the oracles win with 22 supply left. Oracles vs Marine+Medvac: With 81 supply each, 3 shield 3 armor oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and 5 medvacs (no upgrade) the oracles won with 16 supply left. With the same values BUT the medvac upgrade, the marines barely win with 3 marines left. So obviously the biggest thing is oracles cost a LOT more than any of these other units. Still for the most part they win by a massive landslide which means that air toss might be a possibility. It's cool to see that they are so strong against T1+T2 light units. The biggest thing is it seems like the oracle doesn't benefit from weapon upgrades so they aren't going to be as strong in a fully upgraded fight. They seem perfectly good though (A lot better than I thought) in a straight up fight though early. That's great, I think. Late game you could switch them to a time warp role. | ||
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Nadril
68 Posts
On December 07 2012 17:11 unteqair wrote: That's great, I think. Late game you could switch them to a time warp role. Yeah. It seems like you can use them early and mid game for harass and for just fighting head-on with these early T1/T2 light units, and then as you phase them out for carriers, tempests and void rays (I tested and void rays demolish corruptors atm) you can use them as a time warp unit (and still harassment too) which would let you micro more efficiently with the carrier. It really is kind of exciting. | ||
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Entirety
1423 Posts
On December 07 2012 17:04 Nadril wrote: So I was curious about how well the oracle could be used in a straight up fight. I'm in the unit tester now and testing with 0 micro from both sides. So far I've found: Oracle vs Hydra: Oracle seems to always win a 1:1 fight (supply wise) with hydras. The oracles were 1 armor 1 shield, hydras were 1 weapon 1 armor. Even against 3 weapon 3 armor hydras (and 3 armor+3 shield oracles) the oracles win with 30 supply left out of a 48 supply start. Oracle vs Marine: With 33 supply of oracles 0/0 vs 33 supply of marines 0/0 (combat shield+stim) the oracles won with 6 supply left. With 3 armor 3 shield oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and both at 102 supply, the oracles win with 22 supply left. Oracles vs Marine+Medvac: With 81 supply each, 3 shield 3 armor oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and 5 medvacs (no upgrade) the oracles won with 16 supply left. With the same values BUT the medvac upgrade, the marines barely win with 3 marines left. So obviously the biggest thing is oracles cost a LOT more than any of these other units. Still for the most part they win by a massive landslide which means that air toss might be a possibility. It's cool to see that they are so strong against T1+T2 light units. The biggest thing is it seems like the oracle doesn't benefit from weapon upgrades so they aren't going to be as strong in a fully upgraded fight. They seem perfectly good though (A lot better than I thought) in a straight up fight though early. Supply-efficiency definitely plays a part in the lategame. In the earlygame/midgame, however, cost-efficiency is much more important. I would personally like to know how Oracles fare against Hydras, cost for cost. Chances are, Hydras are more cost-effective (Oracles - 150 gas, Hydras - 50 gas), more versatile (as in Hydras deal good dps vs. armored), and they are a Zerg unit (which means Zergs can pump out 20 at a time and their build time isn't that high). Same with Marines, I would gladly trade 100 Marines for 30 Oracles because Marines are Minerals... if I build 100 Marines, what about my gas? I could be amassing an army of Tanks/Ghosts/Vikings/Thors/Banshees/BCs/Ravens as my main army and Marines are my mineral dump... on the other hand, Protoss cannot afford to lose the gas cost of Oracles. Oracles are not expendable. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
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Nadril
68 Posts
The big deal with it is that it is a harassment unit that isn't going to make you incredibly weak to some T1/T2 timing. It means you can buy a lot of time harassing, without worrying about having to try and force some kind of base trade. It's a really fast unit, and it's still got a very useful ability in time warp. I also think that ideally you would be building zealots alongside of this unit. with time warp slowing down the enemy units I think that zealot+oracle could be a very cost effective composition against early units from T/Z. This is all just theory though. I really need to play some games and see how it works out. Obviously air toss is going to be a more expensive army, like Terran mech. The key will be to see if we can have the same defensive capabilities with it (or at least, be able to delay your opponent enough through harass) so that you can build up a bunch of void rays or carriers or tempests or w/e. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
The viability of airtoss is interesting - the +1 range on Phoenixes feel reeeally nice. Harassing is many times easier which is great. Muta vs phoenix is fairly balanced as well, until phoenix get +2 range. Void ray with their charge could have some potential to bring back Stalker/VR PvT busts. Also they dominate corruptors really hard. Fungal, still, is the biggest enemy of both Phoenix and VRs though. | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
The oracle seems so cool now, I want to play them so bad. I like how they really feel like DT tech now. | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On December 07 2012 17:04 Nadril wrote: So I was curious about how well the oracle could be used in a straight up fight. I'm in the unit tester now and testing with 0 micro from both sides. So far I've found: Oracle vs Hydra: Oracle seems to always win a 1:1 fight (supply wise) with hydras. The oracles were 1 armor 1 shield, hydras were 1 weapon 1 armor. Even against 3 weapon 3 armor hydras (and 3 armor+3 shield oracles) the oracles win with 30 supply left out of a 48 supply start. Oracle vs Marine: With 33 supply of oracles 0/0 vs 33 supply of marines 0/0 (combat shield+stim) the oracles won with 6 supply left. With 3 armor 3 shield oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and both at 102 supply, the oracles win with 22 supply left. Oracles vs Marine+Medvac: With 81 supply each, 3 shield 3 armor oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and 5 medvacs (no upgrade) the oracles won with 16 supply left. With the same values BUT the medvac upgrade, the marines barely win with 3 marines left. So obviously the biggest thing is oracles cost a LOT more than any of these other units. Still for the most part they win by a massive landslide which means that air toss might be a possibility. It's cool to see that they are so strong against T1+T2 light units. The biggest thing is it seems like the oracle doesn't benefit from weapon upgrades so they aren't going to be as strong in a fully upgraded fight. They seem perfectly good though (A lot better than I thought) in a straight up fight though early. Wow, that is pretty amazing. Something that is not dealing AoE damage, and is trading greatly with Marines with the same supply! Of course, cost is much higher, but it is still pretty cool. I was thinking about something. I am not Protoss player, so I don't know the timings, but, could you go for Oracle + Zealot timing attack together with Mothership core at the start? Just Imagine, even without speed, Zealots would be hard to kite because of Time Warp, and Oracles can deal a ton of damage together with Zealots to the Marines. If Marines are focusing Zealots, Oracles melt them, and if they focus Oracles, Zealots shred them, even though, Oracles are tougher than Mutas, have a bit higher range, so won't die that fast, and are themselves pretty fast, you could be dancing with them over Zealots, and constantly pick up Marines. I imagine, the only problem that early could be the Widow Mines, and you could get 1-2 Stalkers, with Mothership core to clean them. What do you guys think? | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
Go go muta vs oracle base trade at 8 min. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
On December 07 2012 20:34 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I like the fact that toss can now wreck a mineral as well as the other races now. Go go muta vs oracle base trade at 8 min. the oracle spell can't hit air right? my bet is on the mutas! | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
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Trumpstyle
Sweden114 Posts
Only good thing is they kill workers pretty fast. Blizzard gonna need to rework stargate play because I still think it will be pretty rare openers as we see now in wings of liberty. Edit: Actually after testing it further you can instant attack by activating the beam than attack move also you target down target you want, so you can actually control the beam. Things I said was actually wrong XD. | ||
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AfricanPsycho
South Africa158 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
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Seiniyta
Belgium1815 Posts
On December 07 2012 23:28 Nyast wrote: Yeah I did some tests and I'm also shocked at how fast energy depletes. Considering that in a real game the last 1-2 of them are going to be next to useless after a couple seconds.. It's nice that they're doing well against ground light units ( especially marines and zerglings ) but if you have no energy left they're useless, and it takes a considerable amount of time to get back to a good amount of energy.. I indeed think they do spent energy a little bit too fast. Perhaps they could try out 3 energy instead of 4. Which I see them probably doing. | ||
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Piousflea
United States259 Posts
On December 07 2012 17:04 Nadril wrote: So I was curious about how well the oracle could be used in a straight up fight. I'm in the unit tester now and testing with 0 micro from both sides. So far I've found: Oracle vs Hydra: Oracle seems to always win a 1:1 fight (supply wise) with hydras. The oracles were 1 armor 1 shield, hydras were 1 weapon 1 armor. Even against 3 weapon 3 armor hydras (and 3 armor+3 shield oracles) the oracles win with 30 supply left out of a 48 supply start. Oracle vs Marine: With 33 supply of oracles 0/0 vs 33 supply of marines 0/0 (combat shield+stim) the oracles won with 6 supply left. With 3 armor 3 shield oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and both at 102 supply, the oracles win with 22 supply left. Oracles vs Marine+Medvac: With 81 supply each, 3 shield 3 armor oracles vs 3/3 marines (shield+stim) and 5 medvacs (no upgrade) the oracles won with 16 supply left. With the same values BUT the medvac upgrade, the marines barely win with 3 marines left. So obviously the biggest thing is oracles cost a LOT more than any of these other units. Still for the most part they win by a massive landslide which means that air toss might be a possibility. It's cool to see that they are so strong against T1+T2 light units. The biggest thing is it seems like the oracle doesn't benefit from weapon upgrades so they aren't going to be as strong in a fully upgraded fight. They seem perfectly good though (A lot better than I thought) in a straight up fight though early. All you're really saying is that a 150/150/3 unit is really supply-efficient. You can also A-move 50 mutalisks into 50 hydras and win, but that doesn't mean that Mutas beat Hydras. That said, against light units the Oracle appears to perform at least as well as Banshees, and it has a considerably faster movement speed. It is much much worse than Banshees vs. turrets and spores. | ||
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