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i think the oracle is really really well designed right now
it has a powerful ability for early game that gives you incentive to open with them but doesnt scale with upgrades and thus get less and less powerful later on
for later game though it has a good synergy-ability with timewarp if you have the APM to use it
all in all toss skill ceiling is shaping up to be ridiculously high compared to WoL. different control groups for MsC, army, templars, oracles, tempests, phoenix, and so many abilities to use in a big fight. this might even make deathballs crashing into each other very entertaining to watch (and extremely apm-intense to play) because there are so many abilities in play
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How does the speed of the Oracle compare to the Banshee?
The video made me think of 3 Banshees in a mineral line which would do a ton of damage too. As long as the unit isn't too fast, and isn't too beefy (Oracle is pretty fragile) then I think it's fine.
I play Zerg fwiw.
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Time warp and forcefield is a crazy combination that basically forces the enemy to commit to an attack or get wiped out, especially devastating in PvT. I think the Oracle could stand to have it DPS reduced a little, at the moment that beam looks silly, it kills stuff so fast you don't even see the animation, the workers just explode...
On December 08 2012 00:27 ShamW0W wrote:
How does the speed of the Oracle compare to the Banshee?
The video made me think of 3 Banshees in a mineral line which would do a ton of damage too. As long as the unit isn't too fast, and isn't too beefy (Oracle is pretty fragile) then I think it's fine.
I play Zerg fwiw.
The attack speed + DPS are way too high at the moment, the speed is also a lot faster than banshee (3.375 to 2.75).
A banshee 2 shots probes, but takes double the time to do it, Oracles 2 shot probes and instantly target and shoot another probe.
I think the ideal DPS would be 10 (+5 vs light) with the current attack rate or lower the attack rate by quite a bit, in the ability's current state it basically makes time warp irrelevant until large battles occur, when Blizzard designed it to be a worker harassment spell.
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have to say, the orical is the hardest peice of shit to use... its so hard to make it worth while... and after the opening they can be shut down with ease and then are totally useless... wasted supply...
phonex are FAR better at being able to deal damage and use to harass...
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On December 08 2012 00:27 ShamW0W wrote:
How does the speed of the Oracle compare to the Banshee?
The video made me think of 3 Banshees in a mineral line which would do a ton of damage too. As long as the unit isn't too fast, and isn't too beefy (Oracle is pretty fragile) then I think it's fine.
I play Zerg fwiw.
Oracle has more HP than Banshee, and is faster than Banshee btw. Banshee HP: 140, Oracle HP/Shield: 100/60.
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On December 08 2012 00:50 baldgye wrote:
have to say, the orical is the hardest peice of shit to use... its so hard to make it worth while... and after the opening they can be shut down with ease and then are totally useless... wasted supply...
phonex are FAR better at being able to deal damage and use to harass...
What about time warp? Why can't you utilize that in late-game?
EDIT: The overall opinion in this thread I'm seeing is that oracle does too much damage and is too fragile/hard to work into the deathball.
Apart from the high damage, I think this is a good thing, it'll increase the skill ceiling of Protoss by a lot.
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On December 08 2012 00:20 summerloud wrote:
i think the oracle is really really well designed right now
it has a powerful ability for early game that gives you incentive to open with them but doesnt scale with upgrades and thus get less and less powerful later on
for later game though it has a good synergy-ability with timewarp if you have the APM to use it
all in all toss skill ceiling is shaping up to be ridiculously high compared to WoL. different control groups for MsC, army, templars, oracles, tempests, phoenix, and so many abilities to use in a big fight. this might even make deathballs crashing into each other very entertaining to watch (and extremely apm-intense to play) because there are so many abilities in play
Overall, I agree...
but one thing, even though Oracles don't scale with upgrades, they also ignore all armor (including hardened shields and guardian shield). So while they don't scale with upgrade, they kinda don't have to. They deal the same damage to a unit with 3 armor that they deal to one with no armor.
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As an old BW player, (haven't played HoTS) I think the obvious comparison of this new Oracle is simple: It's a Reaver.
Reavers had high DPS, were great at worker harass, and pretty much destroyed any stray low HP units that were being kept around for defense. Zergs and Terrans were forced to build 2 spores/turrets and keep a few delaying in units in reserve to slow down that rush, and even then might lose 3-4 workers. The drawback was that if you didn't do enough damage with it, then you were behind in bases or economy. Reavers, however, provided a decent defensive option if the drop failed, and meant having a shuttle around for future harass. I'm not sure if Oracle's utility after a failed rush is there or not in the midgame.
Even the "uses energy" mechanic for the attack is sort of similar to the required micro and maintenance of making scarabs for your Reaver. As an old BW player, I highly approve of the changes to the Oracle.
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On December 08 2012 00:55 InoyouS2 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 00:50 baldgye wrote:
have to say, the orical is the hardest peice of shit to use... its so hard to make it worth while... and after the opening they can be shut down with ease and then are totally useless... wasted supply...
phonex are FAR better at being able to deal damage and use to harass... What about time warp? Why can't you utilize that in late-game? EDIT: The overall opinion in this thread I'm seeing is that oracle does too much damage and is too fragile/hard to work into the deathball. Apart from the high damage, I think this is a good thing, it'll increase the skill ceiling of Protoss by a lot.
you can but its a waste of time... spend the gas on phonex can you can snipe overlords and tank dmg from vikings... oricals are weak as shit, hard to even get them to attack and shutdown with either one turret or a spore and a queen... hell have one mine, one mine in your mineral line and you can one shot them...
They are as useful as banshee's without cloak and that you have to spend about 50apm on them just so they wil start attacking, as attack move more often than not just moves them to a location, and there new ability isn't selectiable like before so they just fly to a mineral line and then sit there while you try and get them to attack, and ofc everytime they move they can't attack...
I don't see the point at all
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I'm on the fence. Early game oracle harass (in zvp) can be incredibly potent since they deal with low amounts of queens well.
But my games after that entered a really cool dynamic where I was constantly forced to pressure with my roach/hydra army or else the oracles would come in and zap my mineral fields all day. Even though I was getting some horrendous trades (12 hydralisks killed by 6 oracles without suffering any losses), I was trading oracle energy for army, so I was eventually able to overrun him.
The high energy cost to pulsar beam seems to balance out how monstrous oracles are to ground units. I think the only questionable point is how potent they are with early harass since zerg can't get serious AA until hydras.
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I don't have an issue with the balance, because there have been so many changes recently, who knows?
It kills workers about 50% faster than the Banshee, for reference.
It's not that this is necessarily broken, but I really thought we were supposed to be straying from the whole "harass=coin flippy harvester genocide" concept and moving towards "soft harass" where the opponent does not just outright die.
Idea: maybe time warp should actually increase the amount of time it takes for a worker to mine a mineral patch, instead of only affecting the move speed.
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On December 08 2012 01:10 LavaLava wrote:
I don't have an issue with the balance, because there have been so many changes recently, who knows?
It kills workers about 50% faster than the Banshee, for reference.
It's not that this is necessarily broken, but I really thought we were supposed to be straying from the whole "harass=coin flippy harvester genocide" concept and moving towards "soft harass" where the opponent does not just outright die.
Idea: maybe time warp should actually increase the amount of time it takes for a worker to mine a mineral patch, instead of only affecting the move speed.
Perhaps they need a slight charge up time... again, the DPS is just too high at the moment, but once it reaches a level where it looks sensible and still is very powerful, that's when it'll be in an ideal state.
For reference, a banshee does 24 damage per attack, and a cooldown of 1.25, so does 19.2 DPS, whereas an oracle in it's current state deals 25 damage per attack with an attack cooldown of 1 (according to the tooltip). Which kills 1 probe per second, so 4 oracles can clear a fully saturated worker line in 6 seconds.
The sheer reaction speed needed to defend against that is completely insane, and if you have nothing close they will kill absolutely every worker and still be able to join the main deathball to use time warp.
Also can someone confirm whether or not there is a delay when switching targets? The attack deals 25 damage to light per second, but there is no cooldown, unlike the banshee, so that could be the reason it destroys worker lines so fast at the moment.
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On December 08 2012 01:10 LavaLava wrote:Idea: maybe time warp should actually increase the amount of time it takes for a worker to mine a mineral patch, instead of only affecting the move speed.
The problems with that (and with the mineral barriers) are:
(1) It's all or nothing or alternatively, there's no room for micro to shine.
(2) The damage done is not obvious to the player or the spectator.
Killing stuff requires more micro (targeting individual units, balancing energy usage) and it's clear that the damage is done.
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On December 08 2012 01:24 InoyouS2 wrote:
Also can someone confirm whether or not there is a delay when switching targets? The attack deals 25 damage to light per second, but there is no cooldown, unlike the banshee, so that could be the reason it destroys worker lines so fast at the moment.
Nope, it's like a VR charge beam, and that's a good observation to make. Once you hit the critical mass of oracles to instantly disintegrate workers, then you can shift-click through them all very quickly.
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On December 08 2012 01:29 Kambing wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 01:24 InoyouS2 wrote:
Also can someone confirm whether or not there is a delay when switching targets? The attack deals 25 damage to light per second, but there is no cooldown, unlike the banshee, so that could be the reason it destroys worker lines so fast at the moment. Nope, it's like a VR charge beam, and that's a good observation to make. Once you hit the critical mass of oracles to instantly disintegrate workers, then you can shift-click through them all very quickly.
Ah, good to know, so that is probably why they seem to do such extreme damage.
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losing 15 workers to 4 hellions...I dont know, call me crazy but I think its fine that protoss gets a great early game harassment unit finally, Especially since it is 150 gas per unit. I know people like to compare them to banshee but imo I think we should realize that 2 oracles = 3 banshee gas cost wise. I say thats a better assessment
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the problem with comparing them to banshee's though, is that late game they have so little application... and the slow down mechanic dsnt really do much at all...
the biggest problem with it is that there is still no good harassment unit for protoss other than the phonex... which still isn't that great either...
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On December 08 2012 01:36 SuperYo1000 wrote:
losing 15 workers to 4 hellions...I dont know, call me crazy but I think its fine that protoss gets a great early game harassment unit finally, Especially since it is 150 gas per unit. I know people like to compare them to banshee but imo I think we should realize that 2 oracles = 3 banshee gas cost wise. I say thats a better assessment
Honestly if they just gave Protoss a big yellow Banshee I still wouldn't like it, because I feel that we need lower DPS in this game.
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For reference, a banshee does 24 damage per attack, and a cooldown of 1.25, so does 19.2 DPS, whereas an oracle in it's current state deals 25 damage per attack with an attack cooldown of 1 (according to the tooltip). Which kills 1 probe per second, so 4 oracles can clear a fully saturated worker line in 6 seconds
Banshees cost 50 less gas, and have 50% more range, and can be upgraded with cloak.
I dunno, the tradeoffs seem pretty reasonable:
Banshee - cheaper, higher range, cloaked
Oracle - most expensive, lower range and can't cloak, but gets higher dps, higher speed, gets support spells
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On December 08 2012 01:44 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +For reference, a banshee does 24 damage per attack, and a cooldown of 1.25, so does 19.2 DPS, whereas an oracle in it's current state deals 25 damage per attack with an attack cooldown of 1 (according to the tooltip). Which kills 1 probe per second, so 4 oracles can clear a fully saturated worker line in 6 seconds Banshees cost 50 less gas, and have 50% more range, and can be upgraded with cloak. I dunno, the tradeoffs seem pretty reasonable: Banshee - cheaper, higher range, cloaked Oracle - most expensive, lower range and can't cloak, but gets higher dps, higher speed, gets support spells
we should also note that oracle cant attack indefinitely. It basically has an attack duration
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EPT
