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On December 08 2012 01:44 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +For reference, a banshee does 24 damage per attack, and a cooldown of 1.25, so does 19.2 DPS, whereas an oracle in it's current state deals 25 damage per attack with an attack cooldown of 1 (according to the tooltip). Which kills 1 probe per second, so 4 oracles can clear a fully saturated worker line in 6 seconds Banshees cost 50 less gas, and have 50% more range, and can be upgraded with cloak. I dunno, the tradeoffs seem pretty reasonable: Banshee - cheaper, higher range, cloaked Oracle - most expensive, lower range and can't cloak, but gets higher dps, higher speed, gets support spells
Range doesnt matter for a unit which is used for harrassment and all the supposed advantages of the Banshee which you so dilligently list are more than made up by the added utility of the other spells of that unit. Since the Banshee doesnt have much usefulness in any army composition I would always prefer the added utility of the Oracle over that ... if I didnt think the Oracle totally broken ... [broken in this case means "destroying the game through reducing skill and not being fun for the opponent"].
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United States7483 Posts
On December 08 2012 06:43 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 01:44 awesomoecalypse wrote:For reference, a banshee does 24 damage per attack, and a cooldown of 1.25, so does 19.2 DPS, whereas an oracle in it's current state deals 25 damage per attack with an attack cooldown of 1 (according to the tooltip). Which kills 1 probe per second, so 4 oracles can clear a fully saturated worker line in 6 seconds Banshees cost 50 less gas, and have 50% more range, and can be upgraded with cloak. I dunno, the tradeoffs seem pretty reasonable: Banshee - cheaper, higher range, cloaked Oracle - most expensive, lower range and can't cloak, but gets higher dps, higher speed, gets support spells Range doesnt matter for a unit which is used for harrassment and all the supposed advantages of the Banshee which you so dilligently list are more than made up by the added utility of the other spells of that unit. Since the Banshee doesnt have much usefulness in any army composition I would always prefer the added utility of the Oracle over that ... if I didnt think the Oracle totally broken ... [broken in this case means "destroying the game through reducing skill and not being fun for the opponent"].
Banshees have a ton of use in mech army compositions, and the range does matter: you can kite marines pretty easily with a banshee, and snipe at workers easier past turrets. It's not even a fair comparison really anyway, the two units aren't the same unit.
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Saying range doesnt matter is just not true. More range gives you more options for harrasment when there are static defenses present, and you can stick around longer against mobile defenses.
Not to mention is the oracles spell even targetable? Only used it once myself, but it seemed kinda attracted to static defenses.
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On December 08 2012 06:43 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 01:44 awesomoecalypse wrote:For reference, a banshee does 24 damage per attack, and a cooldown of 1.25, so does 19.2 DPS, whereas an oracle in it's current state deals 25 damage per attack with an attack cooldown of 1 (according to the tooltip). Which kills 1 probe per second, so 4 oracles can clear a fully saturated worker line in 6 seconds Banshees cost 50 less gas, and have 50% more range, and can be upgraded with cloak. I dunno, the tradeoffs seem pretty reasonable: Banshee - cheaper, higher range, cloaked Oracle - most expensive, lower range and can't cloak, but gets higher dps, higher speed, gets support spells Range doesnt matter for a unit which is used for harrassment and all the supposed advantages of the Banshee which you so dilligently list are more than made up by the added utility of the other spells of that unit. Since the Banshee doesnt have much usefulness in any army composition I would always prefer the added utility of the Oracle over that ... if I didnt think the Oracle totally broken ... [broken in this case means "destroying the game through reducing skill and not being fun for the opponent"].
what?range doesnt matter.. ermmm ok. the ability to kite or not to kite allows a harassment unit to harass much longer. With awesome kiting a banshee can kite marines for a very long time....oracle doesnt have that luxury
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On December 08 2012 07:09 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2012 06:43 Rabiator wrote:On December 08 2012 01:44 awesomoecalypse wrote:For reference, a banshee does 24 damage per attack, and a cooldown of 1.25, so does 19.2 DPS, whereas an oracle in it's current state deals 25 damage per attack with an attack cooldown of 1 (according to the tooltip). Which kills 1 probe per second, so 4 oracles can clear a fully saturated worker line in 6 seconds Banshees cost 50 less gas, and have 50% more range, and can be upgraded with cloak. I dunno, the tradeoffs seem pretty reasonable: Banshee - cheaper, higher range, cloaked Oracle - most expensive, lower range and can't cloak, but gets higher dps, higher speed, gets support spells Range doesnt matter for a unit which is used for harrassment and all the supposed advantages of the Banshee which you so dilligently list are more than made up by the added utility of the other spells of that unit. Since the Banshee doesnt have much usefulness in any army composition I would always prefer the added utility of the Oracle over that ... if I didnt think the Oracle totally broken ... [broken in this case means "destroying the game through reducing skill and not being fun for the opponent"]. what?range doesnt matter.. ermmm ok. the ability to kite or not to kite allows a harassment unit to harass much longer. With awesome kiting a banshee can kite marines for a very long time....oracle doesnt have that luxury
Oracle doesn't have that luxury because his attack is different. Banshee can hit and move, Oracle can't, it is basically channeling its attack.
About "reducing" skill, and "not being fun for the opponent", I don't know what the heck he even means by that...
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People just aren't used to protoss air units being... well... good! You have to remember, since the void ray nerf, that and the carrier have been complete jokes. The fact that toss air can now do similar things as the other races would naturally be unnerving. But that's the point! The whole protoss part of the expansion is meant to make Stargate viable, and Blizzard succeeded in that. Don't go running scared at the new prospects, embrace them, and watch HotS become great.
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The damage isn't necessarily too high, the mana cost p/second is way too low.
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I'm not going to say "I'm calling it" or whatnot, but I predict that the harass part of oracles (ie not the usage of time warp), will generally not be very effective at pro levels. They work just the same as late game DT's used to imo - have to catch your opponent underprepared to make it justify the cost.
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A lot of things in this patch are way too powerful. But at least people will use it, and they can adjust numbers accordingly.
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Here are some performance numbers on the new Oracle attack:
An Oracle will kill a worker in 1.72 seconds for 8 energy. 1 Oracle with 50 energy will kill 6 workers in about 10 seconds. 2 Oracles will wipe out nearly an entire worker line in the same time. They perform exactly the same vs. Lings, though at least zergings are fast enough they can just run away (banelings, not so much).
An Oracle will kill a marine in 1.72 seconds for 8 energy, and will take 12 damage in response. An Oracle can take on 4 marines at once, and will win with 40 health left. With stim and stutter step, they can semi-kite Oracles though and become more efficient.
An Oracle will kill a hydralisk in 3.44 seconds for 16 energy, and will take 48 damage in response. An Oracle can take on 2 Hydras at once, and will win with 16 health left. On creep or with the speed upgrade, however, Hydras have the same speed as Oracles and better range and acceleration, so they can quasi-kite Oracles and trade more cost effectively, especially if they also have range.
An Oracle will kill a Queen in 10.32 seconds for 40 energy, and will take 90 damage in response. One transfuse will tip the fight in the Queen's favor.
An Oracle will kill a stalker in 9.46 second for 36 energy, and will take 60 damage in response. With Blink things even up a bit more.
Against anything else on the ground that can shoot back like Thors or Static Defense, Oracles get stomped really hard.
However, they do potentially have some additional utility in focusing down Immortal Hardened Shields (Oracle attack is spell damage, so it ignores Hardened Shields)--Oracles can destroy Hardened Shields in just 6 seconds. They can also, in theory chip in against other things on the ground that can't shoot back, but against more armored units it will not be an efficient use of energy.
edit: The takeaway from all this is that while Oracles deal enough dps to be occasionally helpful chipping in, the reality is they are not very cost efficient in direct conflict. 5 Marines cost 250 minerals and no gas, and can kill a 150/150 Oracle. 3 Hydras cost 300/150 and will utterly own an Oracle--one Oracle vs 200/100 worth of Hydras is almost exactly even. 2 Stalkers cost 250/100 and will wreck an Oracle pretty hard. 2 Queens cost 300/0 and will destroy a 150/150 Oracle. Hydras, Stalkers and Marines can all be upgraded to becomes significantly stronger, and all 4 of these units can be microed to either semi-kite Oracles, or else use transfuse in the Queen's case, and become much more cost effective against them.
Basically, the "omg Oracles OP" griping seems overblown to me. With routine scouting, any of the anti-air units available to the 3 races can be produced in sufficient number to beat Oracles quite cost effectively. Thats not to say Oracles aren't useful, because they can harass well and are good in support. But if you're scouting well, and not playing absurdly greedy or really skimping on anti-air, Oracles are far from some unbeatable threat.
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Chargelot + Oracle: the new Chargelot + Arcon vs Bio?
Given the crazy DPS and movement speed, it seems like it'd have potential.
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oracles might be balanced if given 2.25 speed, 5range, and make their cannon only target ground units.
from above says a oracle kills a worker in 1.72 seconds for 8 energy
well a banshee kills a worker in what 2shots for 0 energy. problem is oracles can kill banshees. seems op.
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On December 09 2012 10:03 kcdc wrote:
Chargelot + Oracle: the new Chargelot + Arcon vs Bio?
Given the crazy DPS and movement speed, it seems like it'd have potential.
EMP says hi.
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On December 09 2012 19:48 kaokentake wrote:
oracles might be balanced if given 2.25 speed, 5range, and make their cannon only target ground units.
from above says a oracle kills a worker in 1.72 seconds for 8 energy
well a banshee kills a worker in what 2shots for 0 energy. problem is oracles can kill banshees. seems op.
Huh?
I thought Oracles already can't target air units...
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On December 09 2012 20:19 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 19:48 kaokentake wrote:
oracles might be balanced if given 2.25 speed, 5range, and make their cannon only target ground units.
from above says a oracle kills a worker in 1.72 seconds for 8 energy
well a banshee kills a worker in what 2shots for 0 energy. problem is oracles can kill banshees. seems op. Huh? I thought Oracles already can't target air units...
They can't, he's making stuff up.
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Here they comes, learn to scout.. finally protoss player have options, they can harass or being aggressive, the time of marine marine marine or drone drone drone are gone (hopefully).
Early oracles are pretty good against 1 rax expand or 3 hatches play, I've tested 2 stargate after an FFE against zerg, starting with 2 oracles and then 4 void. Get a third at 10:30 with only zealots and some sentries and continue your harass (YEAH FINALLY AN HARASS THAT DO DAMAGE). If the zerg is lazy and send like 2 queens without getting spores or hydra you can kill the entire mineral line plus the hatchery, just focus with oracles and void + charge.
Against terran I usually do a 1 gate stargate expand, it is pretty good and safe, oracles + zealots and mothership core are very good against marines/hellion pressure, and if he just expand you can be aggressive or harass hard, just remember.. mines are the best counter to oracles, just 1 mine per mineral line is enough, oracle has 4 range, widow 5.. so is pretty easy to understand that against a stargate opening you should get mines.
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I really don't see the problem with oracles sweeping mineral lines within a couple of seconds.
They are an expensive unit, require a seperate techtree (spoiler alert: you won't be able to compete against T and Z with only stargate tech) and are actually really hard to control.
It's great that protoss now has a unit that is actually deadly enough to force preperations from the enemy. The other races already have their deadly harass unit that can end games right away if the protoss does not prepare for it in general (hellion, bio drops, banshee) or specifically (muta). Hell, try to defend against a mid-sized muta ball with only a single cannon and a stalker.
And it's not like the oracle does not have any tradoffs. Despite the results people got from the unit tester oracles are actually pretty terrible in a straight up mid- to lategame engagement. The slowfield does not really have an impact and their range is too short to use it against bio or anything that has hydras, mutas, thor or vikings in it. It actually has less range than a marines has and thus melts within seconds unless in great numbers (in which case they still don't trade cost-efficient). Their main problem in those fights have to be the horrible acceleration/deceleration and low range. You can not hit-and-run like you could with a banshee or viking. They won't cast their beam until they have come to a full halt.
Opening oracle will delay the much needed splash in a PvT match. Since the addition of hellbats and the buff to medivacs chargelots on their own are not enough to deal with a 10-12 minute bio/hellbat/medivac push. The oracles need to deal significant damage in order to pay off in the long run. With that I mean sweeping an entire line of worker.
When comparing oracles to other types of harass I would say it's closest to a blueflame hellion drop in PvT. If it goes unchecked it will clean the entire mineral line. If defenses are in place they will deal almost no damage or absolutely no damage. Both don't really perform well in a direct engagement (not counting hellbats) and come with a tech tradoff that is worth mentioning.
I use it more like a mid-game harass addition to my main techroute in order to force map-awareness and defenses from my opponent while also not delaying my more important tech too much. The oracles does an OKish job in that niche.
I'd like people to actually play and experiment with the oracle against competent enemies before calling it OP. Requesting to put the +light as an upgrade to the fleet beacon is like putting banshee cloak to the fusion core.
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Watched the video. Nothing wrong there. I mean... Replace the oracles with 3 banshees and you will see the same result. There were no spores and the queens engaged one by one... So yeah. Oracles are fine. Finally protoss has an unit that can be really dangerous for the opponent's mineral line and that is great.
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Replace with 2 Infestors or 3 banelings they can't even run away
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I was watching Idra's stream and he played a bunch of games with whitera and had no trouble with oracles at all. He was saying they are so fragile that if you get up defense for them they can't really do much before having to fly away to regenerate shield. If caught without proper defense however I'm sure they can be deadly to a mineral line.
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EPT
