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On December 07 2012 00:08 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 23:56 Alex1Sun wrote:On December 06 2012 23:49 Karpfen wrote:
they have 4 months to get rid of all these stupid changes. lol, you are either trolling or don't play/watch competitive SC2  while infestor corruptor broodlord is (was?) really obnoxious and terrible to watch and imba and and etc... I really think that all the changes they've made were too drastic and cut off options from the Z point of view (see mutas not being that good at catching medivacs while still not being able to harrass all that well with mines around, ultras losing their mobility spell).
Mutas are now much faster and more useful vs protoss (just as harassing units should be) and ultras with proper support will now start murdering most things on the ground If it's still not the case, further buffs can be applied. The important thing is the game design, and the game design has IMHO been greatly improved with all these changes
I also like the new oracle a lot - cool micro-intensive harasser
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Gas-for-gas an oracle is the same as 1.5 Banshees:
1 Oracle = 29.1 DPS vs light = 19.4 DPS per 100 gas
1 Banshee = 19.2 DPS per 100 gas, against both light and armored
Oracles have 1 less range, have 160 hp+shields (107 hp / 100 gas) versus 140 HP for a banshee, and cannot cloak. Oh yeah, and their attack costs energy. In return they move a heckuva lot faster.
I think it's balanced.
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The oracle seems almost as good as a banshee in harass. The oracle moves faster and kills workers a little faster, but at the cost of shorter range and no shoot-and-scoot micro. If defense is in place, you can still get kills with a banshee by using the 6 range and micro potential. The oracle won't do that.
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you tried 1 queen + 1 spore vs 3 oracle ?
i would love to see that and aswel stargate is pretty much a big investment .
do i have to mention oracle takes 50 seconds now to build ? so it will take around 1 minute and 15 seconds with full chronoboost to have 3 oracles out ??
test them more intensive then just vs 1 queen , cuz if you didnt know 2 oracles > 1 spore even before patch .
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On December 07 2012 01:08 kcdc wrote:
The oracle seems almost as good as a banshee in harass. The oracle moves faster and kills workers a little faster, but at the cost of shorter range and no shoot-and-scoot micro. If defense is in place, you can still get kills with a banshee by using the 6 range and micro potential. The oracle won't do that.
Taken on its own. the Oracle is slightly worse at harassment than the Banshee for cost. However, it has better support spells, and more importantly Protoss air looks like it will synergize better--in particular, the new Void Ray, with no need for charge up time, is much better at flying in to quickly snipe defenses. Adding static defense may shut down pure Oracle comps, but there's no reason for Protoss to limit themselves to pure Oracle, given that their air units complement each other's capabilities.
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do they really get energy for killing drones that fast?
I think blizzard didnt try this patch before releasing it........it looks a bit overpowered :D
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At the moment zerg don't even need to react to toss air more than spore + queen per base (WOL).
Contrast this with muta play, if the toss scouts too late and he doesn't have enough stalkers, he straight up loses, and even if he does, he is forced to abandon any plans he made and play stalker -> templar, or die. All while the zerg gets massive map control.
It's about time toss air play get taken semi-seriously, though we still need something that deals with spores when they get critical mass, like muta deal with cannons in PvZ. Right now this may just force 2 spores instead of 1, while zerg just goes mass roach / infestorling.
I would take a muta esc unit anyday vs this crappy "harras" oracle, I don't see how oracle > phoenix at worker harras, but right know I'll take what I can get.
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On December 07 2012 01:18 AfricanPsycho wrote:
.
It's about time toss air play get taken semi-seriously, though we still need some thing that deals with spores when they get critical mass, like muta in PvZ. Right now this may just force 2 spores instead of 1, while zerg just goes mass roach / infestorling.
The new Void Rays owns spores hard. With its new ability, it does higher dps vs armored (including buildings) than the old Void Ray did charged, and it can do that damage right away and upfront rather than charging up, making it perfect to complement harassment.
I don't see how oracle harras > phoenix, but right know I'll take what I can get.
A Phoenix needs at least 1, preferably 2 or 3 other Phoenixes to harass. At that point, they become capable of killing 1 worker per 50 energy. It does 18 dps vs workers, but the one lifting can't attack, reducing their effective dps for cost when harassing.
Oracles can deal damage to workers without support. They deal 29 dps to workers--3 Oracles will deal 87 dps to workers. 3 Phoenixes will deal 36 dps to workers since one will need to lift. And they are vastly more energy efficient--it takes an Oracle 8 energy to kill 1 worker (they kill a worker every 1.72 seconds, meaning they need to channel their ability for 2 seconds per worker and it costs 4 energy a second), compared to 50 for a phoenix. With 50 energy, an Oracle can kill 6 workers compared to the Phoenix's 1 kill.
So in what way is Oracle harass not > phoenix harass?
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On December 06 2012 19:56 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 16:52 Fragile51 wrote:
Oh shit, it's like a banshee without cloak!
...That relies on energy to attack..
I'm sorry, what is the big issue here again? It's 2x as fast, less expensive, and comes out of a tier 2 tech structure instead of tier 3 (with a tech lab requirement) and does roughly 2x the dps with 0 overkill as it is a channeled ability. So I guess it's really not very similar to a banshee...
Um, it would be more reasonable to consider Stargates on the same tech as Stargate. Gateway>Cyber>Stargate.
Also it's not less expensive.. it's 50 more gas.
And the range is 4, so that means you can't kite marines.
You're right, it's not very similar to a banshee, but it's definitely not overpowered. They are similar in that they should both be decent harass units, but different in that their different designs will allow different kinds of harass.
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On December 07 2012 00:19 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 00:08 Karpfen wrote:On December 06 2012 23:56 Alex1Sun wrote:On December 06 2012 23:49 Karpfen wrote:
they have 4 months to get rid of all these stupid changes. lol, you are either trolling or don't play/watch competitive SC2 while infestor corruptor broodlord is (was?) really obnoxious and terrible to watch and imba and and etc... I really think that all the changes they've made were too drastic and cut off options from the Z point of view (see mutas not being that good at catching medivacs while still not being able to harrass all that well with mines around, ultras losing their mobility spell). Mutas are now much faster and more useful vs protoss (just as harassing units should be) and ultras with proper support will now start murdering most things on the ground If it's still not the case, further buffs can be applied. The important thing is the game design, and the game design has IMHO been greatly improved with all these changes I also like the new oracle a lot - cool micro-intensive harasser
I we are talking about game design only i completely agree, stuff is much better now under that aspect.
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Im sure the bonus +10 to light will be changed to need an upgrade from fleet beacon.
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On December 07 2012 01:18 AfricanPsycho wrote:
At the moment zerg don't even need to react to toss air more than spore + queen per base (WOL).
Contrast this with muta play, if the toss scouts too late and he doesn't have enough stalkers, he straight up loses, and even if he does, he is forced to abandon any plans he made and play stalker -> templar, or die. All while the zerg gets massive map control.
It's about time toss air play get taken semi-seriously, though we still need something that deals with spores when they get critical mass, like muta deal with cannons in PvZ. Right now this may just force 2 spores instead of 1, while zerg just goes mass roach / infestorling.
I would take a muta esc unit anyday vs this crappy "harras" oracle, I don't see how oracle > phoenix at worker harras, but right know I'll take what I can get.
Yes, but isnt this the old "force the Zerg to build X and then attack them with stuff that is good against X" tactic? It seems a tad overpowered AND Oracles do more than just deal damage and thus are far better than Banshees.
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On December 06 2012 18:31 BeyondCtrL wrote:
I'm just jerking off to how smooth your upload is. I'm assuming it's 720p/60fps and a bitrate around 2.8k+? I really wish every stream was like this :<
Yeah, those are exactly my stream settings, actually
After reading some of the thoughts in this thread, I'm starting to be a little more convinced that the buff isn't horribly OP. I would still be in favor of a bit of a tone down.
I think, regardless, it's nice to have a more reliable harass unit than Phoenix, and I now have a few more ideas on how to do fun things with Skytoss. Thanks for all the feedback and helping me make sense of my initial "WTF?!??!" reaction lol
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On December 07 2012 01:58 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 18:31 BeyondCtrL wrote:
I'm just jerking off to how smooth your upload is. I'm assuming it's 720p/60fps and a bitrate around 2.8k+? I really wish every stream was like this :< Yeah, those are exactly my stream settings, actually After reading some of the thoughts in this thread, I'm starting to be a little more convinced that the buff isn't horribly OP. I would still be in favor of a bit of a tone down. I think, regardless, it's nice to have a more reliable harass unit than Phoenix, and I now have a few more ideas on how to do fun things with Skytoss. Thanks for all the feedback and helping me make sense of my initial "WTF?!??!" reaction lol
We understand, the thought of Protoss having one of the premier worker-killing units in the game is a little disorienting. It's almost like Blizzard wanted Protoss players to use their APM.
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On December 07 2012 02:23 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 01:58 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On December 06 2012 18:31 BeyondCtrL wrote:
I'm just jerking off to how smooth your upload is. I'm assuming it's 720p/60fps and a bitrate around 2.8k+? I really wish every stream was like this :< Yeah, those are exactly my stream settings, actually After reading some of the thoughts in this thread, I'm starting to be a little more convinced that the buff isn't horribly OP. I would still be in favor of a bit of a tone down. I think, regardless, it's nice to have a more reliable harass unit than Phoenix, and I now have a few more ideas on how to do fun things with Skytoss. Thanks for all the feedback and helping me make sense of my initial "WTF?!??!" reaction lol We understand, the thought of Protoss having one of the premier worker-killing units in the game is a little disorienting. It's almost like Blizzard wanted Protoss players to use their APM.
Agreed. I doubt the unit is over powered, but it is a massive change to everything protoss normally has. Standard XvP do not account for them being able to harass the mineral line with an airborn unit. Even builds that use the WP still rely on ground units to do the damage. People are not used to respecting the Stargate in any way.
I am ok with it feeling overpowered. I have seen the medivac upgrade.
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Yeah the one full game that I managed to fit in last night fell along similar lines. I got out a quick couple of oracles against my terran opponent and went pretty savage on his SCVs in a short amount of time. It was pretty entertaining.
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On December 07 2012 00:55 Piousflea wrote:
Gas-for-gas an oracle is the same as 1.5 Banshees:
1 Oracle = 29.1 DPS vs light = 19.4 DPS per 100 gas
1 Banshee = 19.2 DPS per 100 gas, against both light and armored
Oracles have 1 less range, have 160 hp+shields (107 hp / 100 gas) versus 140 HP for a banshee, and cannot cloak. Oh yeah, and their attack costs energy. In return they move a heckuva lot faster.
I think it's balanced.
What about their attack mechanism? I think the banshee can't actually kill workers as quickly as the current oracle given the way the damage is distribute, despite their DPS being identical.
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Pulsar beam now drains 4 energy per second. You need to be careful or the investiment may not pay off.
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On December 07 2012 02:44 Inf-badguy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 00:55 Piousflea wrote:
Gas-for-gas an oracle is the same as 1.5 Banshees:
1 Oracle = 29.1 DPS vs light = 19.4 DPS per 100 gas
1 Banshee = 19.2 DPS per 100 gas, against both light and armored
Oracles have 1 less range, have 160 hp+shields (107 hp / 100 gas) versus 140 HP for a banshee, and cannot cloak. Oh yeah, and their attack costs energy. In return they move a heckuva lot faster.
I think it's balanced. What about their attack mechanism? I think the banshee can't actually kill workers as quickly as the current oracle given the way the damage is distribute, despite their DPS being identical.
Huh? Banshees 2 shot workers. How is the damage "distributed" to prevent they from killing workers quickly?
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The damage seems a tad high, but not too ridiculous(maybe a slight nerf to non-light targets). Remember, this is mostly what they are designed to do at this point; they don't have a lot of straight-up fight effectiveness like mutas or stimmed marines or hellions might.
They are basically flying reapers with a little more utility (spells) now, so they need to be able to kill workers fast, as that is their primary purpose (a far cry from the "worker-friendly" entomb oracle we saw in the beginning).
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EPT
