On December 13 2012 02:57 Chloroplaste wrote: Protoss already got a free 4gate or 7gate allin with mothership core recall, now they have upgraded banshee. Terran got widow mine, and free speedreaper.
Although I thought patch was going in right direction, reaper and oracle are too strong for me.
Hots will be a pain if it's stay like that for non-grandmaster. (I play random)
I am a non-grandmaster player and I have been able to deal with the reaper and oracle without much of a problem. Also, the oracle is not an upgaded banshee. The thing has serious flaws that the banshee does not, like a messed up combat animation and the fact that it burns enegry when it isn't firing(and super fast too).
Four and seven gate all-ins have been terrible forever and are telagraphed so early that I don't even consider them any more, even with the recall. With the increased overlord speed, they are so easy to scout. Also, a single viper and one good yank will ruin that plan.
The patch to the Oracle is interesting. 25 energy to activate, then 2 energy after that. That means that if you can get at least 12 shots, it will come out to the same energy efficiency as before (for example, previously it was 48 energy to kill 6 workers, each one costing 8. now killing 6 workers is about the same, but its 25 upfront to activate, then 24 energy to kill 6 workers for a total energy cost of 49). If you can kill more than 6 workers, the new version is actually more efficient...but if the opponent reacts quickly and drives you off before killing 6 workers, it is significantly less. For example, if they drive you off after killing 1 worker, you've wasted 29 energy on one kill.
The net effect seems to be that Protoss need to pick their spots more carefully with Oracles. if you catch your opponent out of position or undefended, you can do crazy high damage very quickly. But if defenses are ready, such that you're only going to be able to get in a few shots before you'll need to pull back, then it generally won't be worth the energy cost. No more darting in to snipe a worker for 8 energy,take minimal damage, then fly away to regen shields and come back and repeat.
The difference is that Oracle harass is actually powerful, whereas Phoenix harass is more of an annoyance. Any Zerg with a few queens can drone harder than Phoenixes are capable of punishing, whereas Oracles force a real response.
In addition oracles can kill off lings attack better than voids and phoenixes.
The difference is that Oracle harass is actually powerful, whereas Phoenix harass is more of an annoyance. Any Zerg with a few queens can drone harder than Phoenixes are capable of punishing, whereas Oracles force a real response.
In addition oracles can kill off lings attack better than voids and phoenixes.
Well, that is what I expect from a freaking 200 gas unit.
The difference is that Oracle harass is actually powerful, whereas Phoenix harass is more of an annoyance. Any Zerg with a few queens can drone harder than Phoenixes are capable of punishing, whereas Oracles force a real response.
In addition oracles can kill off lings attack better than voids and phoenixes.
Well, that is what I expect from a freaking 200 gas unit.
I have only met them once, but then I lost to mass oracle on two base with mass upgraded hydra on two bases, and I scouted them well in advance and spored up each base. If you only build 2 oracles you are doing it wrong.
Next time ill try lings to tank the shots so the hydras doesn't melt, or infestors so I can keep them away from the squishy hydras...
Zerg should be able to handle oracle much much easely now with queens and/or hydra. Just keep pulling your units back when he engages, and attack when he disables his beam or pulls away. The up front energy cost wrecks their offensive styles so much as long as you exploit the fact.
On December 13 2012 19:05 KrosusZorg wrote: I have only met them once, but then I lost to mass oracle on two base with mass upgraded hydra on two bases, and I scouted them well in advance and spored up each base. If you only build 2 oracles you are doing it wrong.
Next time ill try lings to tank the shots so the hydras doesn't melt, or infestors so I can keep them away from the squishy hydras...
It takes forevvvvvver to mass Oracles, during which time you can go steamroll Protoss. They are super gas heavy, thus making you light on Sentries and tech units. They are very bad in a straight up fight as they are fragile and have low range.
Zerg should be able to handle oracle much much easely now with queens and/or hydra. Just keep pulling your units back when he engages, and attack when he disables his beam or pulls away. The up front energy cost wrecks their offensive styles so much as long as you exploit the fact.
I thought hydras are slower than oracles. Maybe burrow as a response to activation (but I dont like the idea of forcing robo when I go mass hydra =) ). That would be really cool.
It takes forevvvvvver to mass Oracles, during which time you can go steamroll Protoss. They are super gas heavy, thus making you light on Sentries and tech units. They are very bad in a straight up fight as they are fragile and have low range.
FE into 3 stargate was what i faced, with zelaot pressure. Yes it takes a long time to mass oracle but they are a threat to the economy in low number as well. And massing hydras and getting upgrades takes time too. Is a two base roach ling push viable vs toss air? Maybe SH (as they wreck static defence and oracles cant detect burrowed). Ill try that next time. Its also the same path as infestors which I think is necessary when you eventually have to deal with the oracles (as opposed to just pushing them out of your base with static).
This is how the engagements looked like in my game (without the storms) "oracle counters hydras"
Just to be clear, I don't claim balance issues. I dont even care about balance (as long as it is reasonably just), I will win 50% of all games anyway due to matchmaking system. I just find it funny how ineffective hydras were.
On December 13 2012 21:07 KrosusZorg wrote: This is how the engagements looked like in my game (without the storms) "oracle counters hydras"
Just to be clear, I don't claim balance issues. I dont even care about balance (as long as it is reasonably just), I will win 50% of all games anyway due to matchmaking system. I just find it funny how ineffective hydras were.
That's a biased test IMO. What's up with testing a 1800 gas army vs a 900 gas one ? Of course oracles do shred hydras to pieces when you do that. All that proves is that food-for-food hydras are less efficient, which shouldn't be a surprise given that oracles cost twice as much. That doesn't mean oracles are cost effective. In addition, all your oracles were at max energy. In a real game that wouldn't happen, you'd be harassing with your oracles, so you wouldn't have that much energy left during a direct fight.
Personally so far I find oracles pretty okay, but not that great either.
have to say, the orical is nice and everything, but I much prefer phonex atm, becasue tempest are a legit unit in most match-ups you can go for phonex early do a decent amount of dmg, maybe have an orical or two with them and you cannot die to early pressure...
phonex imo are probally still the best unit to harass as oricals are so easily shut down, especially vs Z queen and two spores and wtf you gona do? tickle an evo chamber?
That's a biased test IMO. What's up with testing a 1800 gas army vs a 900 gas one ?
Not my test, and I agree, It doesnt give a very clear picture. I guess the best argument for his point of view from his vid is the fact that 12 oracles (full energy) win vs 26 3/3 hydras. I know gas is "more valuable" than minerals but 1gas:1mineral the hydra army in that example is more expensive. (hydras cost 2600 minerals, 1300 gas (not including upgrades), vs oracles for 1800 min 1800 gas). On the other hand, its quite a commitment to be able to engage a harass unit. Concerning max energy or not: if you are at not at max energy, I guess you have killed something else.
Oracles are dangerous if you don't take the necessary precautions for them and you're caught off-guard. This doesn't mean you even have to scout it. Just place a few marines and a widow mine or two in each mineral line until you're ready to move out or if you know the toss isn't making oracles. Then when you have a better eco just put down a turret.
Zerg can defend against oracles just fine with a spore and queen.
It's still a new unit, just adapt to it instead of playing the same way you did in WoL, expecting the old method to be strong against all the new units. Adapt.
On December 14 2012 20:26 rpgalon wrote: can't you build a single multalisk to deny all oracles? I mean, oracle can't hit air and are slower than multalisk. so, you can't even retreat.
It kills the Oracle slowly and costs 300/300 (Spires ain't cheap). Spore is a better answer.
On December 14 2012 20:26 rpgalon wrote: can't you build a single multalisk to deny all oracles? I mean, oracle can't hit air and are slower than multalisk. so, you can't even retreat.
It kills the Oracle slowly and costs 300/300 (Spires ain't cheap). Spore is a better answer.
I was joking, of course if the protoss player builds 5 oracles one muta alone won't cut it, I just wanted to point out that if you have some mutas, a spotted oracle is a 100% dead oracle.
also you shouldn't include the price of the spire, because the way HotS is going, any zerg that wants to play the late game has to put a spire somewhere into their builds.
Day[9] at 16m45s cleared 12 hydralisks with 15 oracles, just mowed them down under 3s... It's official, VR/phoneix/oracle will clean up any mid-game comp of equal numbers.
Day[9] at 16m45s cleared 12 hydralisks with 15 oracles, just mowed them down under 3s... It's official, VR/phoneix/oracle will clean up any mid-game comp of equal numbers.
12 Hydralisks - 1200 minerals, 600 gas, 24 supply, 33 second build time and can be built en masse 15 Oracles - 2250 minerals, 2250 gas, 45 supply, take 50 seconds to build each one
In what way is 15 Oracles owning 12 Hydralisks a problem?
And there's a reason that Stargate units do well vs "equal numbers"--they're expensive as fuck and take ages to build. For example, 6 Corruptors vs 6 Voids is 900/600 and 12 supply vs. 1500/900 and 18 supply. Those 6 corruptors can be built all at once and you can have them in 40 seconds. Those 6 Void Rays will take at minimum, meaning you went double stargate and chrono them constantly, 120 seconds...and chances are it will be a lot closer to 4 or 5 minutes if you only have one stargate.
If stargate units weren't better than equal numbers of other races' air units, they would be unbelievably shitty, because they cost so much more and take forever to get.
On December 15 2012 01:47 awesomoecalypse wrote: 12 Hydralisks - 1200 minerals, 600 gas, 24 supply, 33 second build time and can be built en masse 15 Oracles - 2250 minerals, 2250 gas, 45 supply, take 50 seconds to build each one
In what way is 15 Oracles owning 12 Hydralisks a problem?
And there's a reason that Stargate units do well vs "equal numbers"--they're expensive as fuck and take ages to build. For example, 6 Corruptors vs 6 Voids is 900/600 and 12 supply vs. 1500/900 and 18 supply. Those 6 corruptors can be built all at once and you can have them in 40 seconds. Those 6 Void Rays will take at minimum, meaning you went double stargate and chrono them constantly, 120 seconds...and chances are it will be a lot closer to 4 or 5 minutes if you only have one stargate.
If stargate units weren't better than equal numbers of other races' air units, they would be unbelievably shitty, because they cost so much more and take forever to get.
What gave you that idea that I didn't like it?
Protoss is SUPPOSED to dominate in equal numbers because that's their culture, and what we players know and love them for it!
30 3/3marines vs. 30 3/3/0 chargelots will not end well for the marines.
It seems like to me that hydras shouldn't have to be in equal numbers with oracles in.order to beat them. Oracles aren't just attack units, they have alot of other things that hydras don't. Like the ability to harass and much better mobility plus a few spells.
EPT
