EPTsc2 in a nutshell.
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[D] Oracle changes seem overly powerful - Page 14
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
sc2 in a nutshell. User was warned for this post | ||
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
Also for a laugh, compare oracle harass to medivac/widow mine harass. Sure it's strong, but they're fragile, and in general while a great harass addition that protoss didn't have, by no means do they seem imbalanced. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On December 12 2012 03:51 Zergrusher wrote: The new oracle is a great unit, They could get rid of the mother ship and give the oracle a upgrade that gave it a passive cloaking field. and I have a feeling Bisu will enjoy the oracle, mark my words I don't think the Oracle needs a cloaking field. For one thing, I think its plenty strong as is--the ability to transition between strong anti-worker harass, and strong ground support via timewarp gives it a clear purpose without making them outright gamebreaking. Adding cloaking field on top of that seems uncessary. But more importantly, from a design perspective, adding a cloaking field encourages you to keep your Oracles right over a big clump of units. One of the main points of the Oracle was to encourage Toss to split up supply more and have units at different places around the map--this is why the Oracle attack is so strong in harass, but is difficult to use in large engagements without instantly losing the unit. Even the support spell, Timewarp, is one shot and then lasts a while, encouraging Protoss to fly by and get a TW off with their Oracle, then pull it back to safety to regenerate energy and/or harass at other points on the map. In contrast, Cloaking Field encourages deathballing. As to you second point...I agree, I can't wait to see what Bisu does with the new Protoss air force. Skytoss right now seems tailor made for players who can multitask effectively, and few do that better than Bisu. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 12 2012 03:51 Zergrusher wrote: The new oracle is a great unit, They could get rid of the mother ship and give the oracle a upgrade that gave it a passive cloaking field. and I have a feeling Bisu will enjoy the oracle, mark my words They have said they do not like Cloaking Field and won't be bringing it back to the Oracle. As far as it being too strong, I think it might receive a small nerf before release (the attack spell specifically) because of how strong it is vs Terran early on, for example they could give it 15+7 to light so it has to 3-shot SCV's/Marines, but still 2-shotting drones and probes. but I don't think it is as strong as some people might get the impression. Right now we see things like 4 Oracle's flying into a naked mineral line at 10 minutes and just using all their energy on that. But I do feel like that is the Protoss drastically over-investing in a primarily harass unit, leaving them really vulnerable to counter-attacks. Not to mention I think it will have to be standard to have at least one spore in every mineral line vs Protoss after ~7 minutes, with Oracles and the new cheap DT. | ||
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
On December 12 2012 00:56 kcdc wrote: People are only reading the OP. You might edit the OP. Good idea, done. | ||
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blackbrrd
Norway477 Posts
The Oracle looks very similar to a Banshee. Running 2-3 banshees into someones unprotected base will kill a lot of workers. That people aren't scouting it or protecting against it is their problem - they know how to do it vs Banshees. Either you attack before the Banshees hit or you protect/expand against it. Doing nothing will lose you the game. I think the Oracle brings some very good harass opportunities to Protoss that they have been lacking. For the cost - about equal with Banshee - I do think it feels balanced. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
I saw 6-7 games by FXOChoya today and he really run right over his opponents with Protoss Air. I think it will take a little while before people get used to Protoss air being a viable threat that they need to account for. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 12 2012 09:35 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think it will take a little while before people get used to Protoss air being a viable threat that they need to account for. Not to mention it's almost impossible to judge balance when you have a player like Choya going up against non-professional gamers (in 99% of games at least). | ||
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BerthaG
France74 Posts
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Tharkun
France43 Posts
On December 12 2012 19:37 BerthaG wrote: The big issues on the Oracle: Ok i understand it need mana to harrass, but this make it useless in front battle vs lings or marine, the mana leave so fast .... The lings and marines also get killed so fast  My concern for late game PvT though is ghosts. Their EMP gets even more powerful if Oracles are part of the protoss army. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On December 12 2012 19:49 Tharkun wrote: The lings and marines also get killed so fast My concern for late game PvT though is ghosts. Their EMP gets even more powerful if Oracles are part of the protoss army. Oracles are not supposed to be used in your main army in the first place just like Banshee. Yes, they may be strong in some engagement but in big fight they just die before doing anything. | ||
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Tharkun
France43 Posts
On December 12 2012 19:55 Wildmoon wrote: Oracles are not supposed to be used in your main army in the first place just like Banshee. Yes, they may be strong in some engagement but in big fight they just die before doing anything. I know but i think it is worth looking into. Oracles kill marines insanely fast. Theoretically, in a fight between a chargelot/oracle/HT army and terran MMM, chargelots should be targeted first by the marines. I believe their targetting priority is ground (much like the stalker, which will shoot zerglings before mutalisks). So, having oracles as part of your main army should be possible and effective, since they wont be the first to die... until ghosts come into play of course. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On December 12 2012 23:56 Tharkun wrote: I know but i think it is worth looking into. Oracles kill marines insanely fast. Theoretically, in a fight between a chargelot/oracle/HT army and terran MMM, chargelots should be targeted first by the marines. I believe their targetting priority is ground (much like the stalker, which will shoot zerglings before mutalisks). So, having oracles as part of your main army should be possible and effective, since they wont be the first to die... until ghosts come into play of course. The thing is,Chargelots already shred Marines pretty badly with Timewarp support, and it costs too much energy to really do a lot of damage to a marine ball with Pulsar Beam and have enough left over to keep them consistently timewarped. I'm sure there's some niche use for using leftover energy for Pulsar Beam, but the vast majority of the time you're better off Timewarping IMO. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On December 13 2012 00:06 awesomoecalypse wrote: The thing is,Chargelots already shred Marines pretty badly with Timewarp support, and it costs too much energy to really do a lot of damage to a marine ball with Pulsar Beam and have enough left over to keep them consistently timewarped. I'm sure there's some niche use for using leftover energy for Pulsar Beam, but the vast majority of the time you're better off Timewarping IMO. I agree, including oracles vs. any T comp with marines included is a huge risk. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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Darrkhan
Finland1236 Posts
On December 06 2012 16:52 Fragile51 wrote: Oh shit, it's like a banshee without cloak! ...That relies on energy to attack.. I'm sorry, what is the big issue here again? Yeah and like banshee but kills 40 workers in 2 seconds | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On December 13 2012 01:57 Darrkhan wrote: Yeah and like banshee but kills 40 workers in 2 seconds 6 workers in 10 seconds, at which point it will generally run out of energy. In contrast, Banshees kill 6 workers in 15 seconds, but at longer range and never run out of energy. in what way is the Oracle broken? Becuase Protoss isn't supposed to have harass units that don't suck? | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
And well the Banshee has multiple ways to be stopped, but you really must try hard to fail at doing damage with Oracles or to lose the Oracle in the early game. I hope they make it stoppable and not reduce its damage, so that it will become useless for anyone capable of using the Phoenix. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On December 13 2012 02:25 FeyFey wrote: It is funny that people prefer the Oracle over the Phoenix. But I guess it is mostly due to the easy control it has and the ability to hit buildings. And well the Banshee has multiple ways to be stopped, but you really must try hard to fail at doing damage with Oracles or to lose the Oracle in the early game. I hope they make it stoppable and not reduce its damage, so that it will become useless for anyone capable of using the Phoenix. its not a matter of control, the simple fact is the Oracle is a really good worker killer, and the Phoenix isn't. A Phoenix needs at least 1, preferably 2 or 3 other Phoenixes to harass. At that point, they become capable of killing 1 worker per 50 energy. It does 18 dps vs workers, but the one lifting can't attack, reducing their effective dps for cost when harassing. Oracles can deal damage to workers without support. They deal 29 dps to workers--3 Oracles will deal 87 dps to workers. 3 Phoenixes will deal 36 dps to workers since one will need to lift. And they are vastly more energy efficient--it takes an Oracle 8 energy to kill 1 worker (they kill a worker every 1.72 seconds, meaning they need to channel their ability for 2 seconds per worker and it costs 4 energy a second), compared to 50 for a phoenix. With 50 energy, an Oracle can kill 6 workers compared to the Phoenix's 1 kill. edit: and the Oracle is actually more "stoppable" than the Phoenix. it costs more and takes longer to build (so therefore is easier to scout, and is also a bigger setback if you lose it), it is slower (and has much slower acceleration), and it has less health. In terms of keeping your units alive, there's no question its easier to keep Phoenix alive than Oracle. The difference is that Oracle harass is actually powerful, whereas Phoenix harass is more of an annoyance. Any Zerg with a few queens can drone harder than Phoenixes are capable of punishing, whereas Oracles force a real response. | ||
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Chloroplaste
France281 Posts
Terran got widow mine, and free speedreaper. Although I thought patch was going in right direction, reaper and oracle are too strong for me. Hots will be a pain if it's stay like that for non-grandmaster. (I play random) | ||
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