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On December 07 2012 17:14 Kvassten wrote:Don't like DT and medivac changes, the rest is good  Is a DT rush going to punish 1 rax FE now? When does the DT enter my base with these upgrades?
Your worries are in vain. Think about the DT rush, the limiting factor is the actual build time of the buildings, not the cost of them. The current fastest DT rush build order has no gap between buildings after you've built your gateway, until the dark shrine is complete. And it will be no different in HotS. The only thing that will be changed is that you basically can get 4 dts, instead of 3, when the dark shrine finishes. Though you might be able to get a slightly earlier gateway, since you don't need your second geyser as early.
1 DT extra will make no difference offensively, as either your opponent has detection, or not. What 4 DTs will do is make the transition into zealot/archon slightly easier after your initial DT harass.
This also promotes DT usage in the later game (what David Kim intended), because it doesn't leave a huge economic dent after building the initial Dark Shrine.
I will mention, though it's not important, that DTs will probably become more popular in team games.
Edit:
I tried the fastest DT rush in WoL, and the Dark Shrine finished at 5.50. Doing this I was starved for minerals because I did 9 pylon 9 gateway. After this its absolutely crucial to get two gas before cybernetics core. This left me with my second and third gateway delayed, so I had to "sprinkle" the dt's warpins.
In HotS, you don't need that early second gas, which enables you to build more probes after 9 pylon 9 gateway 10 gas. Delaying the second gas until after cybercore. The dark shrine still finished at 5.50, but I had more gateways ready at that point.
So in conclusion, you get more DTS out in HotS at the same timing as in WoL. This is just a slight buff to dark templar rushes, not a huge deal some of you may think.
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Medivac
The Medivac’s Caduceus Reactor upgrade at the Starport Tech Lab:
Health restored per second from 9 to 15.
Energy cost reduced from 3 health per 1 energy to 5 health per 1 energy.
Cost increased from 100/100 and 80 seconds to 150/150 and 110 seconds.
Not so sure about this. What if my HTs get EMPed? Will I have the DPS to fight the Terran's bio force now Medivacs heal so fast?
Reaper
Base speed increased from 2.95 to 3.375
Upgraded speed increased from 3.84 to 4.25.
TvP won't change I guess. TvZ will be interesting, but Reapers may turn out a bit too hard To deal with. TvT will still be trololo(and I hate it).
Widow Mine
No longer hits cloaked units.
New upgrade: Drilling Claws
Decreases burrow time from 3 to 1 second.
Requires Tech Lab and Armory. Costs 150/150, 110 second research time.
Totally hate this unit anyway. Fucking one-shot Medivacs and Warp Prisms, just fucking silly if you have units inside them. Anyway, if blizz want To make Widow Mines better in lategame, they should lower the supply to 1, since in late players care a lot more about supply and not costs. 3 mines at 200 supply are 2 tanks less in your army. Anyway, fucking stupid unit. Does nothing if your opponent has detection and are awared, MSC and Stalkers can clean up infinity WMs. And them fucking OP if blindly hits a Medivac with 8 Marines or something like that.
Armory
The Armory now only has one weapon and one armor upgrade for both air and ground upgrades for both Factory and Starport units.
Cool, but not so sure...
Mothership
Vortex now kills a single target.
Vortex does not affect massive units.
Pretty sure that they're are singing trololo at blizz's head quater right now. Fucking lame. Why not just make the old Vortex only affecting ground, since only air units stack up like crazy?
Dark Shrine
Cost is now 100/100, down from 100/250.
Not so sure about this one.
Tempest
Now requires Fleet Beacon.
Attacks with two weapons. The primary weapon, Kinetic Overload, hits air units and remains unchanged. The secondary weapon, Resonance Coil, hits ground units, and does not deal bonus damage to massive units.
Build time is now 60, down from 75.
If Tempest doesn't deal extra damage to Colossus anymore(pretty sure it doesn't), then I totally hate this. I can understand that blizz doesn't want Tempest To counter both Brood Lord and Ultralisk, but what about PvP? Colossus war again? And not so sure about moving it to Fleet Beacon tech.
Hydralisk
Speed upgrade now requires Lair tech.
Finally, have always been thinking why the speed upgrade was at Hive at the firat place. It's not like Hydralisks are OP or something. Sure some Hydralisk bursts were good against Protoss, but now Protoss has MSC for defence. And getting both range and speed upgrade for your Hydralisk Will delay your attack timing. So good change!
Mutalisk
Speed increased from 3.75 to 4. Acceleration stays at 3.5.
Not sure about this one. Widow Mines still shut down Mutalisks hard. And if the Phoenix range buff was to compensate this, then this is just lame.
Infestor
Fungal Growth:
Is now a projectile.
Speed of the projectile is 10.
Range down to 8.
Infested Terrans no longer gain weapon and armor upgrades.
Infested Terran egg health down to 70.
Huge nerf for both the main spells! Not sure if they needed to lower the egg health if Infested Terrans no longer get any upgrades. Hopefully not overnerfed.
Ultralisk
Burrow Charge has been removed.
Damage changed from 15+20 armored to 35 flat damage.
Good change! But why not keep the Burrow Charge? It's not like the ability was OP or something, in fact rarely used.
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i was watching a stream of a guy who had about 7 oracles floating around in a pack killing workers, the speed at which they kill every single worker in one base is much much faster then a marine drop or hellion drop. that energy beam thing is insane
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On December 07 2012 19:38 FinestHour wrote:
i was watching a stream of a guy who had about 7 oracles floating around in a pack killing workers, the speed at which they kill every single worker in one base is much much faster then a marine drop or hellion drop. that energy beam thing is insane
Yeah there was a video in this thread sometime earlier. I have no idea how it got past the office.
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On December 07 2012 04:35 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:29 dust7 wrote:
I think the new seeker is way too similar to yamato. 300 single target damage that needs to charge up and has long range... Yamato: 10 range, 3 second charge up, 100 energy, single target New Seeker: 10 range, 3 second charge up, 125 energy, single target Hmmm... 
Also, both do 300 damage.
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On December 07 2012 19:21 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 19:17 Breach_hu wrote:On December 07 2012 19:04 Veldril wrote:On December 07 2012 18:56 Breach_hu wrote:On December 07 2012 18:38 Qikz wrote:On December 07 2012 17:06 Breach_hu wrote:
zerg still goes really strong, mech still not viable againts roach hydra viper. This is coming from someone who plays mech, but good tank spread (don't have 2 on top of each other) and good viking or now thor control can stop vipers being a massive pain so it's really viable still. Also don't underestimate the importance of mines against that composition. You'll have less tanks, but get a lot of mines. 4) Oracles have an attack now, and it MELTS worker lines. MELTS. You thought pre-nerf BFH was bad? You ain't seen nothing yet. I'd say this is a good thing, it's easily shut down by spores and or turrets. ^^ Againts spread out tanks they use swarmhosts, and they are just wrecking spread out tanklines. I have around 500 games played on HotS, top8 GM constantly (NSHGolem BTW if you see me on ladder) Lol, I think I just saw you played Ganzi and got wrecked by Reapers opening  Watching him play really makes me think that Reaper is really strong right now. I wrecked him with reaper then he reverse wrecked me with reapers :D So you think there is no way to prevent Roach/Hydra/Viper obliterating mech? Like 2/2 Vikings, Seeker missile (PDD maybe?), etc...? They might get off some blinding cloud, but lose all vipers and if you spread well they should not hit everything so you can hold Roach/Hydra? Just curious.. Ill try myself as soon as get home..
In late game there is way sure, but if the Z plays it properly you are stucked on 3 base forever.
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i don't have the beta, there is a video of all these changes?
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Does PDD stop fungal now that it's projectile?
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Medivacs are still 100/100...
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On December 07 2012 19:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 19:38 FinestHour wrote:
i was watching a stream of a guy who had about 7 oracles floating around in a pack killing workers, the speed at which they kill every single worker in one base is much much faster then a marine drop or hellion drop. that energy beam thing is insane Yeah there was a video in this thread sometime earlier. I have no idea how it got past the office.
You need to be prepared for it basically, it's very easy to defend.
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On December 07 2012 19:58 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 04:35 avilo wrote:On December 07 2012 04:29 dust7 wrote:
I think the new seeker is way too similar to yamato. 300 single target damage that needs to charge up and has long range... Yamato: 10 range, 3 second charge up, 100 energy, single target New Seeker: 10 range, 3 second charge up, 125 energy, single target Hmmm... Also, both do 300 damage.
You could argue a Raven has more practical use/versatility than a BC and is cheaper and quicker to produce. But essentially yeah, it's really silly duplicating the move in all most every way possible.
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On December 07 2012 20:34 Garmer wrote:
i don't have the beta, there is a video of all these changes?
Yeah, HuskyStarcraft has made videos explaining the T and P changes as of yet. And soon to be the Z changes I presume.
youtube.com/huskystarcraft - his two latest videos
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Can anyone confirm which attack Tempests use vs Colossi?
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DT does have a considerable impact on the protoss openings.
Now protoss doesnt need a fast 3rd gas when going DT off of FFE or, he can have more minerals after a DT rush to allow for an expo or get some sentries in case rush fails and other player decides to 1 base it and allin... opens up quite some options.
Although I still think they should allow DT on templar archive tech and scrap shrine alltogether.
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As a Zerg... I just can't find my self winning any games in the beta. In WoL I'm fine, but currently I just feel like Terran and Protoss are using all these tools that are incredibly hard to stop. Widow Mines also screw up every thing as well, mutalisk play is so hard against it. I basically have to carry an overseer with me if I want to harrass a mineral line.
My ZvZ is 100% win ratio so far this season while my protoss/terran is something rediculously low xD
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Can't they nerf swarm hosts it's really frustrating to play against -_-
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On December 07 2012 21:09 hugman wrote:
Can anyone confirm which attack Tempests use vs Colossi?
Cant confirm, but it is usually always the better one (like thors use vs ground, yet queens vs air when fighting colossi)
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On December 07 2012 19:37 FroZeN.Broken wrote:
Tempest
Now requires Fleet Beacon.
Attacks with two weapons. The primary weapon, Kinetic Overload, hits air units and remains unchanged. The secondary weapon, Resonance Coil, hits ground units, and does not deal bonus damage to massive units.
Build time is now 60, down from 75.
If Tempest doesn't deal extra damage to Colossus anymore(pretty sure it doesn't), then I totally hate this. I can understand that blizz doesn't want Tempest To counter both Brood Lord and Ultralisk, but what about PvP? Colossus war again? And not so sure about moving it to Fleet Beacon tech.
Colossus is still hard-countered by the Tempest, but Ultralisk, Archon and Thor are not. They did a very good job on it if you ask me.
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Jeeze.. they sure didn't pull out stops on the number of changes.
There are just so many changes I don't know where to begin. Terran got majorly buffed, I'm not familiar with current HOTS meta but was terran even worse off than they were in WOL?
I'm not sure that I like Terran only having 2 sets of upgrades in total now (2 bio, 2 mech/air). Z and P both have 5 total upgrades to max for. It's mostly just nostalgia from BW.. terran has always had air and mech upgrades separate (not that that's a very compelling reason).
No more energy bar on thor means that it can be used in tvp mech. Thor swappable aa is pretty interesting actually, I hadn't considered going that way but I think it's a good thing. This turns the thor more into a goliath but it still keeps the thor. I know Bliz didn't add the gol back because they knew it would pretty much kill the thor. I can see mech as being something other than a glorified timing attack before BLs now. Spamming a good number of thors with support hellion/tank should be able to fend off z hive play. Now you'll see z's trying to exploit mech speed.
Super medivacs are interesting. Increasing their strength slightly more than increasing their cost should produce a net bonus. They've made it easier to land drops with the bonus move speed, but the cost for losing a drop is now 50/50 more. This increases the strength of bio play (more heal for same supply) in the 200/200 engagement.
Raven and seeker missile. I don't necessarily hate the 10 range, 3 second charge time, opportunity for some micro. The problem I see is that seeker missile costs a huge amount of energy, is a single target spell, and your opponent can micro away from it. I don't see this change as being the final change for seeker missile - but I guess it's a step in the right direction.
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On December 07 2012 21:21 archonOOid wrote:
Can't they nerf swarm hosts it's really frustrating to play against -_-
Swarm hosts are OK and they are just bad vs bio because the bio dps kill locusts so fast...
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EPT
