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My only beef with these changes is the Seeker Missile redesign. Not only is it too similar to the Yamato Cannon, but it's weaker.
Both Seeker Missile and Yamato Cannon do 300 single-target damage, have a 3 second casting duration, and have 10 range. What makes Seeker Missile weaker is that it has 7 less range during its casting duration (easily dodged) and it costs 25 more energy. I guess the Raven's significantly lower cost and build time could be an argument in favor of using Seeker Missile rather than Yamato Cannon, but the Battlecruiser's high health, armor and dps (oh right, and the Raven's a pure spellcaster with no auto-attack), in addition to Yamato Cannon's lower energy cost and greater range during its casting duration, make it the clear choice in my opinion.
But what if I need it ASAP? Ravens cost less and build faster, right? Yeah, but you'll still have to wait for the energy to accumulate. Battlecruisers take 30 seconds longer to build than Ravens, but require 25 less energy (44.444 seconds of energy accumulation) to use Yamato Cannon than Ravens need for Seeker Missile. So if you start building a Battlecruiser and a Raven at the same time, despite its longer build time, the Battlecruiser's Yamato Cannon will be usable 14.444 seconds before the Raven's Seeker Missile. This will be true if you have neither Corvid Reactor nor Behemoth Reactor or if you have both. If you have Behemoth Reactor but not Corvid Reactor, then Yamato Cannon will be usable 88.888 seconds before Seeker Missile. If you have Corvid Reactor but not Behemoth Reactor, then Yamato Cannon and Seeker Missile will be usable at the exact same time. So it turns out that while Ravens build quicker and cost less than Battlecruisers, a Seeker Missile is never quicker to "build" than a Yamato Cannon. If time is of the essence, a Battlecruiser's Yamato Cannon should be your choice.
It seems to me that the only way that a Raven for Seeker Missile would ever be chosen over a Battlecruiser for Yamato Cannon is if you can't afford a Battlecruiser.
Yeah, but Seeker Missile isn't the only reason to build a Raven! What if I want Auto-Turrets, Point Defense Drones, or a detector? Then build some fucking Ravens, you idiot. That isn't my point. 
TL;DR: The redesigned HotS Seeker Missile is an inferior Yamato Cannon.
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On December 06 2012 20:49 Prog455 wrote:
Well first of all you should notice that every race has been buffed significantly. Medivacs have been buffed, but Protoss and Zerg has also been giving the means to deal with stronger bio forces
Huh? Where are the buffs for Protoss against terran bio ?
I'm very concerned by the medivac buff, it sounds really strong. Protoss air has been buffed, but I really do wonder how good it would be to go gate units + air without splash damage versus 12-13' MMM...
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On December 06 2012 22:44 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 22:41 Karpfen wrote:On December 06 2012 22:40 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 22:35 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:33 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 22:28 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:25 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 22:18 Grendel wrote:On December 06 2012 21:47 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 21:45 BeeNu wrote:
[quote]
I think you highly overestimate how strong Zerg is, they have [had] the Infestor, that's about it.
Blinding cloud is great but against units like Thors and Vikings enjoy losing at least a couple Vipers every single time you want to use Cloud. HP buff may help a bit but I doubt it will mean anything.
In the past Broodlords were only "just ok" when fighting Thors, now I see no reason why Thors should ever lose to Broods.
Neural is still a total joke, it's an ability you only use if you want to free up supply by sacrificing an Infestor. Ahahaaa, Zerg crying no more Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor defwin... LOVE IT!! :D Your post is just stupid. You really want to see another few years of one dimensional play? There are now close to no counters to a Thor except for the viper. Let's see how long it'll take terrans to prepare a little bit for that with either free fully upgraded vikings or some Ghosts. This isn't about anyone crying. Further, I don't think any Zerg in here liked playing infestor broodlord. It's just plain boring and incredibly bad for the game. So stop it.. Seriously, stop. They just dismantled 2-year 1-dimensional boring bl/infestor turtlefest and you cry like little baby.. Haha, not even worth a comment, not a single game in a new patch and we already know we got new 1-dimensional terran playstyle, lol.. Like, what? :D There are so counters to Thor - Lings, Roaches, Vipers, NP, Magic box muta, jesus christ this is funny.. :-) Nobody's jimmies are being rustled, you just make yourself look like a tool, congrats. Sorry, I don't get your comment.. Do you actually have something to say? I don't know, do you? You haven't made any intelligent comments and are just trolling (very poorly I might add) instead of actually contribute in the slightest. Well, don't you think it's a bit early to cry about infestor nerfs when not a single game of beta with those changes was played? Just try to answer this if you want intelligent perspective. Other than that, stupid whine deserves nothing more than stupid answers.. At least I tried to explain to you, that infestor nerf is not the end of the world for Zerg, but apparently, Zerg point of view is full of infestors, so I guess I understeand now.. well, can still use mutas.... nope, widow mines, speed medivacs, lolrange phoenixes.. Ok, Ill aply your logic so you see how silly it is. well, widow mines? Nope, overseer, viper, lolspeedhydra...
solution 1: makes mutalisks way slower (the speed buff rendered useless)
solution 2: hive tech, you serious ? to counter a t1 unit ?
solution 3: Hydras won't really get into the mineral line of the opponent rofl.
You failed to even mess with one of units i listed, not that silly of a logic i used, right?
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Only the medivac buffs seem totally broken, the rest I need to play with before commenting. Just the seeker missile seem kind of lame from a design stand point.
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On December 06 2012 22:38 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 22:32 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:28 Evangelist wrote:On December 06 2012 22:24 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:18 Evangelist wrote:On December 06 2012 22:10 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:06 Wildmoon wrote:On December 06 2012 22:04 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:03 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 21:55 BeeNu wrote:
[quote]
Well that's nice input, but sadly I play Random and not Zerg. I have 0 complaints about nerfing Infestors and making BL/Inf a lot weaker, but any scrub on the ladder knows that if you do something like that you have to compensate Zerg properly somehow or they're fucked, Blizzard made Zerg overly rely on Infestor, now that Infestor is nerfed what does Zerg get? Oh slightly faster Muta and Hydra, well that's nice.
But that's ok you sound like a gold league who blamed his loss on balance, rofl. Infestor is nerfed, so you HAVE TO immidiately buff everything else without even trying things out, right? I'm pretty sure Zerg will do more then fine late-game vs Terran (silly statement, right?).. You have several new tools to deal with mech army before Broodlords now, so don't act like they just nerfed infestor and thats it - Zerg is doomed.. Actually I got destroyed in beta playing mech against basic Roach/Hydra army with just a few Vipers mixed in.. Mech is how Terran can still lose, it's Bio vs Zerg that will not lose. And yes, if Infestors are heavily nerfed then Zerg needs buffs in other places. If I cut your right arm off you would probably want some compensation of strength in your left arm. Are you sure Zerg bio will not lose vs zerg? I don't think are that good at this game to call that. Yeah, I'm very positive actually. I only got to play about 3 real games before server shut down but I got to play with Terran a little. Every Terran will just go ahead and get the Medivac upgrade before switching the Starport to a Reactor, the buff to healing is insane. If Infestors had 0 nerfs it *might* be balanced out since you can nearly heal straight through Fungal, forget about the range and being able to dodge them. Add in all the other massive Terran buffs and the fact Zerg got basically nothing that will help in ZvT, yeah I think it's pretty safe to say Zerg is fucked. The mathematics of it don't work out like that I'm afraid. The upgrade makes a medivac worth around 1.6 medivacs in pure healing power. The upgrade itself costs 150/150 and requires 110 seconds to work. Given that most reactors on an early game starport go down as the starport is building or are already built, there is no latent addon building time so you can assume an instant swap. Since the upgrade is 110s you can undergo a full 3 building cycles before your medivacs are actually ready, meaning that for most early game timings you are actually better off having the 6 medivacs you will have out from your starport than the 3 upgraded medivacs. No only are they capable of more healing but they also have more hitpoints and can heal more bio at a given time. Not every day a Masters player gets schooled by a Gold leaguer :p Except you fail to take into account that your example only really works for a very specific timing window. Terrans won't NEED to cripple their enemy in the early-midgame now and hitting that specific timing as strong as humanly possible isn't so required, why not just set yourself up for an even stronger timing a little bit later and just switch your build order around a bit so you can macro harder till your Medivac timing. No, it's just flat out better for a good period of time. I'm not focusing on a specific attack window at all. I'm just stating flat out that you don't catch up in healing potential for at least 1-2 minutes after you have finished the upgrade. It is therefore best to not start the upgrade until you have, at minimum, a second starport. The best way to maximize your healing output remains to go one reactor starport and then to upgrade later. The timing remains the same and you have a much stronger early game army. And yet I still disagree that it is necessarily better to have 6 normal Medivacs over 3 upgraded Medivacs. In terms of sheer numbers yes, 6 Medivacs can potentially heal a larger number of HP but this isn't the only factor you have to consider. One example being if you use larger, fewer units like Marauders or Hellions to tank hits in chokes while medivacs keep them alive indefinitely so you don't necessarily need 6 different units being healed at the exact same time, in which you having that many medivacs is not as efficient as fewer, stronger medivacs. Focus fire will almost always overcome any amount of healing and in other situations the AI behaviour will result in a large number of targets being attacked. This is a silly argument - it is mathematically better to have 6 unupgraded vs 3 upgraded and remains better until you hit 10 and 7. You're relying on incredibly specific behaviour where someone is literally microing in the worst possible way they can vs 3 medivacs to make your point. The situation you describe simply does not exist. There is something to be said for an early starport tech lab going for medivac tech, provided you have already committed to a tech lab for other reasons as it'll help you catch up on your medivac count. However for early game power you should be going reactor starport in almost every circumstance.
Trying to target fire with Lings does nothing but make them worse and sinkhole your apm, I don't even know what you're talking about. What I'm talking about isn't some niche hypothetical situation, every Terran in the world already knows how to split micro his bio and set himself up in good chokes.
Well, don't you think it's a bit early to cry about infestor nerfs when not a single game of beta with those changes was played? Just try to answer this if you want intelligent perspective. Other than that, stupid whine deserves nothing more than stupid answers.. At least I tried to explain to you, that infestor nerf is not the end of the world for Zerg, but apparently, Zerg point of view is full of infestors, so I guess I understeand now..
Discussing = Crying, good to know we got your troll repertoire figured out.
It is early but some Beta games have been played, I managed to get about 4 full games in myself, one of such games was a nice TvT where I had early upgraded Medivacs and a single drop killed about 4x it's weight in bio, but yes in this specific type of situation I imagine target firing could reduce that number.
Oh you just now realized that Zergs were entirely dependent on Infestors? Glad you caught up to last year's metagame.
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On December 06 2012 22:18 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 22:10 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:06 Wildmoon wrote:On December 06 2012 22:04 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:03 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 21:55 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 21:47 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 21:45 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 21:39 Qikz wrote:On December 06 2012 21:33 Grendel wrote:
[quote]
Great. Except for the Viper, there is now not a single zerg unit that can beat Thors. And no, ultralisks don't beat them cost effectively, and lings get raped already by hellbats.. I think you've overestimating how weak zerg is. Binding cloud shuts down thors, neural can really own thors completely and broodlords will still do well against thors unless you get a bunch of them firing at the same time which will be hard in a tight space. I think you highly overestimate how strong Zerg is, they have [had] the Infestor, that's about it. Blinding cloud is great but against units like Thors and Vikings enjoy losing at least a couple Vipers every single time you want to use Cloud. HP buff may help a bit but I doubt it will mean anything. In the past Broodlords were only "just ok" when fighting Thors, now I see no reason why Thors should ever lose to Broods. Neural is still a total joke, it's an ability you only use if you want to free up supply by sacrificing an Infestor. Ahahaaa, Zerg crying no more Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor defwin... LOVE IT!! :D Well that's nice input, but sadly I play Random and not Zerg. I have 0 complaints about nerfing Infestors and making BL/Inf a lot weaker, but any scrub on the ladder knows that if you do something like that you have to compensate Zerg properly somehow or they're fucked, Blizzard made Zerg overly rely on Infestor, now that Infestor is nerfed what does Zerg get? Oh slightly faster Muta and Hydra, well that's nice. But that's ok you sound like a gold league who blamed his loss on balance, rofl. Infestor is nerfed, so you HAVE TO immidiately buff everything else without even trying things out, right? I'm pretty sure Zerg will do more then fine late-game vs Terran (silly statement, right?).. You have several new tools to deal with mech army before Broodlords now, so don't act like they just nerfed infestor and thats it - Zerg is doomed.. Actually I got destroyed in beta playing mech against basic Roach/Hydra army with just a few Vipers mixed in.. Mech is how Terran can still lose, it's Bio vs Zerg that will not lose. And yes, if Infestors are heavily nerfed then Zerg needs buffs in other places. If I cut your right arm off you would probably want some compensation of strength in your left arm. Are you sure Zerg bio will not lose vs zerg? I don't think are that good at this game to call that. Yeah, I'm very positive actually. I only got to play about 3 real games before server shut down but I got to play with Terran a little. Every Terran will just go ahead and get the Medivac upgrade before switching the Starport to a Reactor, the buff to healing is insane. If Infestors had 0 nerfs it *might* be balanced out since you can nearly heal straight through Fungal, forget about the range and being able to dodge them. Add in all the other massive Terran buffs and the fact Zerg got basically nothing that will help in ZvT, yeah I think it's pretty safe to say Zerg is fucked. The mathematics of it don't work out like that I'm afraid. The upgrade makes a medivac worth around 1.6 medivacs in pure healing power. The upgrade itself costs 150/150 and requires 110 seconds to work. Given that most reactors on an early game starport go down as the starport is building or are already built, there is no latent addon building time so you can assume an instant swap. Since the upgrade is 110s you can undergo a full 3 building cycles before your medivacs are actually ready, meaning that for most early game timings you are actually better off having the 6 medivacs you will have out from your starport than the 3 upgraded medivacs. No only are they capable of more healing but they also have more hitpoints and can heal more bio at a given time.
This. These misconceptions from others need to stop.
On December 06 2012 22:11 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 22:04 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 22:03 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 21:55 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 21:47 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 21:45 BeeNu wrote:On December 06 2012 21:39 Qikz wrote:On December 06 2012 21:33 Grendel wrote:On December 06 2012 19:35 Everlong wrote:On December 06 2012 19:31 Existor wrote:
[quote]
It's not works for me, gives error Really? I just tested 5 Thors vs 5 Broodlords and Thors won with 3 left, 1 half healt lol.. :D Great. Except for the Viper, there is now not a single zerg unit that can beat Thors. And no, ultralisks don't beat them cost effectively, and lings get raped already by hellbats.. I think you've overestimating how weak zerg is. Binding cloud shuts down thors, neural can really own thors completely and broodlords will still do well against thors unless you get a bunch of them firing at the same time which will be hard in a tight space. I think you highly overestimate how strong Zerg is, they have [had] the Infestor, that's about it. Blinding cloud is great but against units like Thors and Vikings enjoy losing at least a couple Vipers every single time you want to use Cloud. HP buff may help a bit but I doubt it will mean anything. In the past Broodlords were only "just ok" when fighting Thors, now I see no reason why Thors should ever lose to Broods. Neural is still a total joke, it's an ability you only use if you want to free up supply by sacrificing an Infestor. Ahahaaa, Zerg crying no more Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor defwin... LOVE IT!! :D Well that's nice input, but sadly I play Random and not Zerg. I have 0 complaints about nerfing Infestors and making BL/Inf a lot weaker, but any scrub on the ladder knows that if you do something like that you have to compensate Zerg properly somehow or they're fucked, Blizzard made Zerg overly rely on Infestor, now that Infestor is nerfed what does Zerg get? Oh slightly faster Muta and Hydra, well that's nice. But that's ok you sound like a gold league who blamed his loss on balance, rofl. Infestor is nerfed, so you HAVE TO immidiately buff everything else without even trying things out, right? I'm pretty sure Zerg will do more then fine late-game vs Terran (silly statement, right?).. You have several new tools to deal with mech army before Broodlords now, so don't act like they just nerfed infestor and thats it - Zerg is doomed.. Actually I got destroyed in beta playing mech against basic Roach/Hydra army with just a few Vipers mixed in.. Mech is how Terran can still lose, it's Bio vs Zerg that will not lose. And yes, if Infestors are heavily nerfed then Zerg needs buffs in other places. If I cut your right arm off you would probably want some compensation of strength in your left arm instead of "Well that right hook of yours was really something...so much for that!" Bio is still every bit as weak against zerg splash as it always has been. It'll still get mauled by infestor/ling/bling and still get overrun by huge numbers of cracklings mixed in with ultras and a few infestors. You still need tanks to take either composition out. Yes, late game medivacs will make it a little easier for terran to cope with the huge swarms of cracklings and fungals and everything else that rains down on a late game terran army but it's not that big a change.
Not to mention the Ultralisks significantly buffed damage which will likely be toned down.
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On December 06 2012 22:45 TheNut wrote:
Hmmm not ones really mentioned the fact that the HSM now only does Target unit damage and has no splash damage. Whilst 300 damage is obvioiusly a huge amount, i cant see how single unit damage will help it be useful in countering late game corruptor/bl/inf
It works against colossi though.
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What did hydra speed upgrade require before?
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On December 06 2012 22:46 Nyast wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 20:49 Prog455 wrote:
Well first of all you should notice that every race has been buffed significantly. Medivacs have been buffed, but Protoss and Zerg has also been giving the means to deal with stronger bio forces
Huh? Where are the buffs for Protoss against terran bio ? I'm very concerned by the medivac buff, it sounds really strong. Protoss air has been buffed, but I really do wonder how good it would be to go gate units + air without splash damage versus 12-13' MMM...
well the buff was that oracle got this huge AoE slow spell that kinda stop bio getting out from storm easily and harder to kite chargelots.
@above,
hydra speed upgrade required hive. So hydra was still kinda useless because the speed comes too late and too many counters would already be on the field. (tanks, storm, colossus etc)
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On December 06 2012 22:45 Acetone wrote:My only beef with these changes is the Seeker Missile redesign. Other than that they're used by different units, the only differences between the new Seeker Missile and the Yamato Cannon are that the Seeker Missile has 7 less range during its casting duration and costs 25 more energy. They both do 300 single-target damage and have a 3 second casting duration. I guess the Raven's significantly lower cost and build time could be an argument in favor of using Seeker Missile rather than Yamato Cannon, but the Battlecruiser's high health, armor and dps (oh right, and the Raven's a pure spellcaster with no auto-attack), in addition to Yamato Cannon's lower energy cost and greater range during its casting duration, make it the clear choice in my opinion. But what if I need it ASAP? Ravens cost less and build faster, right? Yeah, but you'll still have to wait for the energy to accumulate. Battlecruisers take 30 seconds longer to build than Ravens, but require 25 less energy (44.444 seconds of energy accumulation) to use Yamato Cannon than Ravens need for Seeker Missile. So if you start building a Battlecruiser and a Raven at the same time, despite its longer build time, the Battlecruiser's Yamato Cannon will be usable 14.444 seconds before the Raven's Seeker Missile. This will be true if you have neither Corvid Reactor nor Behemoth Reactor or if you have both. If you have Behemoth Reactor but not Corvid Reactor, then Yamato Cannon will be usable 88.888 seconds before Seeker Missile. If you have Corvid Reactor but not Behemoth Reactor, then Yamato Cannon and Seeker Missile will be usable at the exact same time. So it turns out that while Ravens build quicker and cost less than Battlecruisers, a Seeker Missile is never quicker to "build" than a Yamato Cannon. If time is of the essence, a Battlecruiser's Yamato Cannon should be your choice. It seems to me that the only way that a Raven for Seeker Missile would ever be chosen over a Battlecruiser for Yamato Cannon is if you can't afford a Battlecruiser. Yeah, but Seeker Missile isn't the only reason to build a Raven! What if I want Auto-Turrets, Point Defense Drones, or a detector? Then build some fucking Ravens, you idiot. That isn't my point. TL;DR: The redesigned HotS Seeker Missile is an inferior Yamato Cannon.
Yeah the new Seeker Missile seems kinda of a mediocre idea that probably will again be changed. Although with the buffs to units that shoot missile attacks PDD might actually be the main reason to get Ravens. The new Seeker on the other hand from the few times a managed to use them didn't seem all that strong. Single Target damage is almost never worth it.
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Is it just me or does the medivac upgrade not exist? I just tried out all the units in the map editor and the medivac upgrade was the same old.
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On December 06 2012 22:52 tili wrote:
What did hydra speed upgrade require before?
Hive.
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The seeker missile seems like a much more interesting Yamato.
So, it pops out in front of the raven, and you have three seconds to get 13 range away from it. So, if I shoot from max range, you have to move 3 away. If I shoot from 8 range, you have to get 5 away. So, the closer the raven is, the harder the missile is to dodge. At point-blank, not even a speed reaper can escape.
Edit: Are seeker missiles still free in HotS? This spell is actually *really* good against tanks, and against Thors in spash mode.
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On December 06 2012 22:52 tili wrote:
What did hydra speed upgrade require before?
3 base lead and balls of steel.
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thor is fucking amazing now.
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prepare for a lot more DT rushes. i do mean A LOT more DT rushes
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On December 06 2012 22:10 Qikz wrote:
A good thing about the thor change is you can finally kill overlords with thors without taking like 10 attacks :/
Overlords don't have any armor so it will require the same number of shots. The patch notes didn't indicate any new attack speed for the alternate attack, but apparently it's 2 seconds instead of 3, so it will kill them faster though, yes.
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On December 06 2012 23:05 DarkHeartsDie wrote:
prepare for a lot more DT rushes. i do mean A LOT more DT rushes
If you're not zerg, yes. Cos zerg has easy detection.
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Am I the only one that thinks those medivac buffs are a little absurd? to say the least. Bio is going to be tough as hell. I definitely think T needed some help against Z, but... pretty sure T is going to steamroll protoss now, if not zerg as well. Armory upgrades change is very good.
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For PvT Bio, storms and colossus are still very strong, with healing costing less medivacs will have higher energy which means feedback is more potent( Unless the speed boost costs energy and terrans can try and keep the energy low) Theres still the potential of surrounds with zealots and forcefields. The oracles slow makes it harder to kite or dodge storms and 7 range phoenix could do a good job of killing medivacs as well as protecting colossus from vikings. There are a lot of options.
Really nice changes overall. Does vortex still pull in units? I am guessing it would allow you to focus down massive units while the rest of the army is in the vortex?
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EPT
