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I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent.
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On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent.
I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing".
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On December 04 2012 18:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent. I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing".
so you dont play HOTS and refer to WoL.
in HOTS zerg definetly needs changes, especially if infestor gets hard nerfs. the problem will still be that hydras are way too weak to become a T2 coreunit. lairtechspeed (which makes them offcreep still slower than oncreep) is a step in the right direction but they still suck and lose to marauder, blinkstalker, immortals, voidrays and 100 other units supplywise. they really need more range and better upgradescaling = +2 attack per upgrade to be viable in later game stages.
the patch is a very nice step in the right direction. some units are missing (BC, carrier, nydus worm etc.) and some units like hydras still get too few love but overall its important and awesome to see blizzard realizes the most problems and is willing to solve them. there will be numerous patches until that is done but its 3,5 months until the game is out so enough time to fix the most problems. the finetuning balance patching will come some months after HOTS anyway since you cant balance the game with almost no pros and no toplevel pro at all playing HOTS.
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I see a lot negative comments that seem to come from people not actually playing the Beta. If you are not playing HOTS, these changes would seem dumb if you base your opinion on current WOL units and metagame.
Those design goals are spot on if you are actually playing HOTS right now. It wont be fixing any of the old WOL problems, but these changes will actually let the metagame settle down a bit. Maybe make HOTS balance tournament worthy at least.
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On December 04 2012 14:55 DemigodcelpH wrote:
It's questionable if Zerg needs any buffs at all. Just flat-out harsh nerfs.
The Protoss and Terran changes are <3 and much needed though.
there are enough zerg units, which could use a buff. the infestor is overshadowing the whole zerg race atm, as it is the most used unit in every matchup. (which is sad) I'd really like seeing more diversity in zerg armies.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
All of these changes will be so good for making a better game overall!!
I love it! Best patch ever? 
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On December 04 2012 19:13 Jenia6109 wrote:All of these changes will be so good for making a better game overall!! I love it! Best patch ever?
Indeep, i like redesign stuffs, and the mech buff for Terran. Can't wait
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4. Nerf Infestor quite heavily
free at last! free at last! thanks god almighty, we are free at last!
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51492 Posts
Well if that happens, to me HOTS will finally be a "new game" because that changes alot of the game we are all seeing. Might finally get people to play HOTS alot more heavily.
Also props to Blizzard for "finally" nerfing Infestor, but thinking well we can't just nerf it and hope Zerg use this one other ability. They decided to buff alot of the old units. Hydra and Muti buffs look quite cool and i hope to see them used alot.
2 base Hydra all in be a nice cheese :3
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On December 04 2012 18:57 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 18:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent. I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing". so you dont play HOTS and refer to WoL. in HOTS zerg definetly needs changes, especially if infestor gets hard nerfs. the problem will still be that hydras are way too weak to become a T2 coreunit. lairtechspeed (which makes them offcreep still slower than oncreep) is a step in the right direction but they still suck and lose to marauder, blinkstalker, immortals, voidrays and 100 other units supplywise. they really need more range and better upgradescaling = +2 attack per upgrade to be viable in later game stages. the patch is a very nice step in the right direction. some units are missing (BC, carrier, nydus worm etc.) and some units like hydras still get too few love but overall its important and awesome to see blizzard realizes the most problems and is willing to solve them. there will be numerous patches until that is done but its 3,5 months until the game is out so enough time to fix the most problems. the finetuning balance patching will come some months after HOTS anyway since you cant balance the game with almost no pros and no toplevel pro at all playing HOTS.
You CANNOT buff hydra damage even more, especially with upgrades, due to how fast their rate of fire is. Personally, I think the best buff they could get would be +10 health. That would bring their 1-on-1 stats a lot closer to on par with the units you mentioned.
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On December 04 2012 19:26 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 18:57 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 18:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent. I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing". so you dont play HOTS and refer to WoL. in HOTS zerg definetly needs changes, especially if infestor gets hard nerfs. the problem will still be that hydras are way too weak to become a T2 coreunit. lairtechspeed (which makes them offcreep still slower than oncreep) is a step in the right direction but they still suck and lose to marauder, blinkstalker, immortals, voidrays and 100 other units supplywise. they really need more range and better upgradescaling = +2 attack per upgrade to be viable in later game stages. the patch is a very nice step in the right direction. some units are missing (BC, carrier, nydus worm etc.) and some units like hydras still get too few love but overall its important and awesome to see blizzard realizes the most problems and is willing to solve them. there will be numerous patches until that is done but its 3,5 months until the game is out so enough time to fix the most problems. the finetuning balance patching will come some months after HOTS anyway since you cant balance the game with almost no pros and no toplevel pro at all playing HOTS. You CANNOT buff hydra damage even more, especially with upgrades, due to how fast their rate of fire is. Personally, I think the best buff they could get would be +10 health. That would bring their 1-on-1 stats a lot closer to on par with the units you mentioned.
their DPS isnt as insane as people think. even marauder do more DPS!! with stim they do 15 DPS, while hydra 14,3 or so. and their upgrades are very bad. as bad as stalker upgrades (but they have blink).
i like it that hydras die pretty fast so they are the DPS supporter but then blizzard has to give them that role and give them better ugprade scaling and better range. or make their damage 12 + 3 to armored and give them +1/+1 per upgrade. something like that.
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buff UP stuff, nerf OP stuff.
sounds good for a strat but will need alot of finetuning. like if you buff bio it will be really strong early to mid once medivac (who get another buff?!?!?) come out.
i still would like to have more units for terra, just the mine... i dont know.
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On December 04 2012 19:32 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 19:26 aksfjh wrote:On December 04 2012 18:57 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 18:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent. I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing". so you dont play HOTS and refer to WoL. in HOTS zerg definetly needs changes, especially if infestor gets hard nerfs. the problem will still be that hydras are way too weak to become a T2 coreunit. lairtechspeed (which makes them offcreep still slower than oncreep) is a step in the right direction but they still suck and lose to marauder, blinkstalker, immortals, voidrays and 100 other units supplywise. they really need more range and better upgradescaling = +2 attack per upgrade to be viable in later game stages. the patch is a very nice step in the right direction. some units are missing (BC, carrier, nydus worm etc.) and some units like hydras still get too few love but overall its important and awesome to see blizzard realizes the most problems and is willing to solve them. there will be numerous patches until that is done but its 3,5 months until the game is out so enough time to fix the most problems. the finetuning balance patching will come some months after HOTS anyway since you cant balance the game with almost no pros and no toplevel pro at all playing HOTS. You CANNOT buff hydra damage even more, especially with upgrades, due to how fast their rate of fire is. Personally, I think the best buff they could get would be +10 health. That would bring their 1-on-1 stats a lot closer to on par with the units you mentioned. their DPS isnt as insane as people think. even marauder do more DPS!! with stim they do 15 DPS, while hydra 14,3 or so. and their upgrades are very bad. as bad as stalker upgrades (but they have blink). i like it that hydras die pretty fast so they are the DPS supporter but then blizzard has to give them that role and give them better ugprade scaling and better range. or make their damage 12 + 3 to armored and give them +1/+1 per upgrade. something like that.
Stimmed marauders have 10 DPS. 13 if upgraded +3.
Hydras have 14.5 DPS, 18,1 if upgraded +3.
So no. Health and movement speed should be the hydra buffs and/or reduced vespene cost.
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On December 04 2012 19:45 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 19:32 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 19:26 aksfjh wrote:On December 04 2012 18:57 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 18:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent. I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing". so you dont play HOTS and refer to WoL. in HOTS zerg definetly needs changes, especially if infestor gets hard nerfs. the problem will still be that hydras are way too weak to become a T2 coreunit. lairtechspeed (which makes them offcreep still slower than oncreep) is a step in the right direction but they still suck and lose to marauder, blinkstalker, immortals, voidrays and 100 other units supplywise. they really need more range and better upgradescaling = +2 attack per upgrade to be viable in later game stages. the patch is a very nice step in the right direction. some units are missing (BC, carrier, nydus worm etc.) and some units like hydras still get too few love but overall its important and awesome to see blizzard realizes the most problems and is willing to solve them. there will be numerous patches until that is done but its 3,5 months until the game is out so enough time to fix the most problems. the finetuning balance patching will come some months after HOTS anyway since you cant balance the game with almost no pros and no toplevel pro at all playing HOTS. You CANNOT buff hydra damage even more, especially with upgrades, due to how fast their rate of fire is. Personally, I think the best buff they could get would be +10 health. That would bring their 1-on-1 stats a lot closer to on par with the units you mentioned. their DPS isnt as insane as people think. even marauder do more DPS!! with stim they do 15 DPS, while hydra 14,3 or so. and their upgrades are very bad. as bad as stalker upgrades (but they have blink). i like it that hydras die pretty fast so they are the DPS supporter but then blizzard has to give them that role and give them better ugprade scaling and better range. or make their damage 12 + 3 to armored and give them +1/+1 per upgrade. something like that. Stimmed marauders have 10 DPS. 13 if upgraded +3. Hydras have 14.5 DPS, 18,1 if upgraded +3. So no. Health and movement speed should be the hydra buffs and/or reduced vespene cost.
lol? get your numbers right. they do 10 DPS and 20 DPS to armored. since half of the ground units are armored its about 15 DPS and 19,5 DPS with +3. also they perform better vs carapace upgrade of the opponent because they gain +1,5 per upgrade while hydras get +1. so hydras attack upgrades are 100% negated by carapace upgrades of the opponents, marauders arent.
btw: make them 75 25 and 1 supply would also be a nice change but that wont happen i guess...maybe in LotV.
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On December 04 2012 19:50 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 19:45 Godwrath wrote:On December 04 2012 19:32 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 19:26 aksfjh wrote:On December 04 2012 18:57 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 18:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent. I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing". so you dont play HOTS and refer to WoL. in HOTS zerg definetly needs changes, especially if infestor gets hard nerfs. the problem will still be that hydras are way too weak to become a T2 coreunit. lairtechspeed (which makes them offcreep still slower than oncreep) is a step in the right direction but they still suck and lose to marauder, blinkstalker, immortals, voidrays and 100 other units supplywise. they really need more range and better upgradescaling = +2 attack per upgrade to be viable in later game stages. the patch is a very nice step in the right direction. some units are missing (BC, carrier, nydus worm etc.) and some units like hydras still get too few love but overall its important and awesome to see blizzard realizes the most problems and is willing to solve them. there will be numerous patches until that is done but its 3,5 months until the game is out so enough time to fix the most problems. the finetuning balance patching will come some months after HOTS anyway since you cant balance the game with almost no pros and no toplevel pro at all playing HOTS. You CANNOT buff hydra damage even more, especially with upgrades, due to how fast their rate of fire is. Personally, I think the best buff they could get would be +10 health. That would bring their 1-on-1 stats a lot closer to on par with the units you mentioned. their DPS isnt as insane as people think. even marauder do more DPS!! with stim they do 15 DPS, while hydra 14,3 or so. and their upgrades are very bad. as bad as stalker upgrades (but they have blink). i like it that hydras die pretty fast so they are the DPS supporter but then blizzard has to give them that role and give them better ugprade scaling and better range. or make their damage 12 + 3 to armored and give them +1/+1 per upgrade. something like that. Stimmed marauders have 10 DPS. 13 if upgraded +3. Hydras have 14.5 DPS, 18,1 if upgraded +3. So no. Health and movement speed should be the hydra buffs and/or reduced vespene cost. lol? get your numbers right. they do 10 DPS and 20 DPS to armored. since half of the ground units are armored its about 15 DPS.
For fuck sake, don't use terrible logic to try to back up your argument. So let's add a 50% more damage to hydras because they can shoot air ? Hydras are all rounders, their problem has always been not being cost efficient, slow and squishy, fixing one of several of that issues is the way to go, not making more damage.
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On December 04 2012 19:54 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 19:50 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 19:45 Godwrath wrote:On December 04 2012 19:32 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 19:26 aksfjh wrote:On December 04 2012 18:57 Decendos wrote:On December 04 2012 18:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent. I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing". so you dont play HOTS and refer to WoL. in HOTS zerg definetly needs changes, especially if infestor gets hard nerfs. the problem will still be that hydras are way too weak to become a T2 coreunit. lairtechspeed (which makes them offcreep still slower than oncreep) is a step in the right direction but they still suck and lose to marauder, blinkstalker, immortals, voidrays and 100 other units supplywise. they really need more range and better upgradescaling = +2 attack per upgrade to be viable in later game stages. the patch is a very nice step in the right direction. some units are missing (BC, carrier, nydus worm etc.) and some units like hydras still get too few love but overall its important and awesome to see blizzard realizes the most problems and is willing to solve them. there will be numerous patches until that is done but its 3,5 months until the game is out so enough time to fix the most problems. the finetuning balance patching will come some months after HOTS anyway since you cant balance the game with almost no pros and no toplevel pro at all playing HOTS. You CANNOT buff hydra damage even more, especially with upgrades, due to how fast their rate of fire is. Personally, I think the best buff they could get would be +10 health. That would bring their 1-on-1 stats a lot closer to on par with the units you mentioned. their DPS isnt as insane as people think. even marauder do more DPS!! with stim they do 15 DPS, while hydra 14,3 or so. and their upgrades are very bad. as bad as stalker upgrades (but they have blink). i like it that hydras die pretty fast so they are the DPS supporter but then blizzard has to give them that role and give them better ugprade scaling and better range. or make their damage 12 + 3 to armored and give them +1/+1 per upgrade. something like that. Stimmed marauders have 10 DPS. 13 if upgraded +3. Hydras have 14.5 DPS, 18,1 if upgraded +3. So no. Health and movement speed should be the hydra buffs and/or reduced vespene cost. lol? get your numbers right. they do 10 DPS and 20 DPS to armored. since half of the ground units are armored its about 15 DPS. For fuck sake, don't use terrible logic to try to back up your argument. So let's add a 50% more damage to hydras because they can shoot air ? Hydras are all rounders, their problem has always been not being cost efficient, slow and squishy, fixing one of several of that issues is the way to go, not making more damage.
depends on what role you want to give them. if you want to give them a role as a DPS support unit: increase range and damage (direct or with better upgrades). if you want to make them stalker #2 increase their health.
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FINALLY! This is like the best shit I've ever read from Blizzard balance wise, I was seriously thinking this game was hopeless.
If this stuff actually goes through I'll tottaly start playing again, and I'm sure many of my Terran buddies will too.
Also, I called the armory upgrade merging back when HOTS beta was announced, I can't believe they haven't done that in WOL beta actually, that would fix so many problems Terran has with the lategame, I think a mech and Raven buff might not even be necessary with that change, we'll see.
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I wanna see some large changes, just to see what happens. It's in beta, they should be willing to see what moving around some units and upgrades will do.
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On December 04 2012 20:20 Zealos wrote:
I wanna see some large changes, just to see what happens. It's in beta, they should be willing to see what moving around some units and upgrades will do.
These are some pretty big changes, ala BW 1.08 patch, and overall the proposed (possible) changes are very reasonable, these changes are definitely a step in the right direction.
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On December 04 2012 18:57 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 18:51 DemigodcelpH wrote:On December 04 2012 18:42 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I see problems but not a lot of solutions.
It seems quite apparent that Blizzard can't figure out what's wrong with the game, and are starting to target tried and true units with clearly established roles instead of actually coming out with good ideas. They're suggesting that speeding up a bunch of mid-tier units will somehow increase their late-game viability, when in fact many of these things will offset one another and not have an effect on balance at all. Buffing mech while simultaneously buffing ultralisk viability vs ground is a zero-change scenario. Lowering tech level of hydralisk movement speed and giving mutalisks a speed boost offsets any buff that they give to protoss air viability or medivac movement speed. Nerfing infestors too heavily will reduce their viability vs everything, slowing down the building of the structure and therefore the progression to tier 3, whcih they're supposedly trying to encourage even more. Repositioning of swarm-hosts is hardly relevant because their attack is so slow, you already have plenty of time to reposition them. Nothing about an alternative to the warhound, which was a terrible idea to begin with. Pushing reaper even harder in the early game will further trash the greatness of TvT and could lead to more volatility in all matchups due to the potential of overuse. I'm starting to see an unsettling lack of progression in their unit design philosophy that I find to be deeply disturbing.
EDIT: Not to take anything away from DK, who really is the sharpest tool in the Blizzard SC2 kit. He's just working in circles to the point where it's almost a waste of talent. I'm not sure what you're even going on about. Most reasonable people will agree that Zerg doesn't need any buffs period, and that hopefully these "harsh infestor nerfs" will be actual nerfs and not tickles like "20 hp from egg thing". so you dont play HOTS and refer to WoL. in HOTS zerg definetly needs changes, especially if infestor gets hard nerfs. the problem will still be that hydras are way too weak to become a T2 coreunit. lairtechspeed (which makes them offcreep still slower than oncreep) is a step in the right direction but they still suck and lose to marauder, blinkstalker, immortals, voidrays and 100 other units supplywise. they really need more range and better upgradescaling = +2 attack per upgrade to be viable in later game stages. the patch is a very nice step in the right direction. some units are missing (BC, carrier, nydus worm etc.) and some units like hydras still get too few love but overall its important and awesome to see blizzard realizes the most problems and is willing to solve them. there will be numerous patches until that is done but its 3,5 months until the game is out so enough time to fix the most problems. the finetuning balance patching will come some months after HOTS anyway since you cant balance the game with almost no pros and no toplevel pro at all playing HOTS.
Hydras backed up with Roaches and Vipers later on are doing really fine in all matchups.
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EPT
