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On October 27 2012 09:59 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/02/250mm_strike_cannons.png) 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) and remove the setup time of 2 seconds . I didn't know what to suggest aside from removal which isn't constructive. I don't think your suggestion will solve its problems since its normal ground attack DPS is pretty insane already.
Easy ... here are three suggestions:
1. Remove the energy and make it a cooldown based ability
2. Make mechanical and/or massive units immune to Feedback
3. Remove the energy until the ability is researched.
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On October 27 2012 15:27 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 09:59 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) and remove the setup time of 2 seconds . I didn't know what to suggest aside from removal which isn't constructive. I don't think your suggestion will solve its problems since its normal ground attack DPS is pretty insane already. Easy ... here are three suggestions: 1. Remove the energy and make it a cooldown based ability 2. Make mechanical and/or massive units immune to Feedback 3. Remove the energy until the ability is researched.
Thors returns to its alpha anti-armor role. Due to the tempest oracle
Combo and widow mines,thor's Anti-muta role is reduced.
Either:
Replace 250 mm strike cannon with haywire missiles spell
OR
Redesign 250mm strike cannon into a channeled spell that fires all SIX cannons(four at back + two on arms) but makes it a terror on the field, necessitating oracle/tempests or oracle/immortals to halt Terran mass Thor doom march
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I wonder what would happen if Groove Spines would change into a +10 health upgrade at Hive level tech, and then moving the hydra 25% speed upgrade from HotS to Lair tech. Perhaps this will make Hydras more useful from the moment you can get them to even being somewhat "ok" late game. (with hydra range being 6 baseline instead of 5)
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I reallly like the new medivac uprgade idea.
Have you posted these idea on the battle.net forum?
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On October 27 2012 12:42 MasterCynical wrote:What about Behemoth reactor? ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/4/4b/Behemoth_reactor.gif) 25 extra starting energy for a Battlecruiser....
This is actually not useless.
BC's got a slight stealth buff in HotS that yamato now only costs 100 energy. Given that TvT has resorted back to mech wars with the hellbat I expect that BCs will now actually become a common endgame unit in that matchup.
BC's being able to cast two yamato's in the crucial battles and just getting that first one quicker are the best way to break a tank stalemate imo. It's also a bit easier to have BC's now without an immediate air superiority because widow mines can occasionally even zone out vikings a little bit. For example moves like camping a starport are much riskier now if a widow mine is nearby.
At least I've gotten into a few TvT's already where i got the behemoth reactor and plenty of BC to finish the opponent after getting into a tank stalemate.
For the rest of the suggestions, most won't work well or are a bit silly imo. Like neosteel frame would solely be a medivac upgrade and never be gotten for bunkers. The autotracking for turrets is already common enough not to need a buff, besides buffing range by 1 for widow mines is too much as you can no longer outrange the mine with common units like stalkers and hydra's then.
The medivac heal upgrade is a decent idea, the upgrade's most common use now is just to fake getting cloak. If heal was buffed it might need to increase in cost a little though.
For most other upgrades unused upgrades i just suggest removing, it's just ugly having these useless upgrades in the game. Grooved spines is alright but I can see a buff to +2 range or +1 range and +10hp for hydra's. Giving bonus vs doesn't fit well though, zerg almost doesn't have this and it might make the hydra a little bit too strong in ZvP (quick hydra pushes would tear through stalkers and even a non-range colo would go down very quickly)
Biggest change needed is to 250mm cannon, I can't stand them leaving that upgrade as is. An upgrade which is in almost all cases terrible to get and even can actively make the unit worse (neural parasite) is just so ugly.
I would love to see them either buffing it slightly (make it faster or remove energy bar) or even better completely retool it to for example:
- mortar shot, the thor fires shells into the air landing at a long range of 15 dealing 100 damage in a small area of effect. The shot makes a distinguishable sound and the shells take some time to land so you can actually move away from being hit.
This spell would be a nice spell especially for TvT being able to break tanklines. If the opponent responds properly (to the sound for example) he could get away with tanks hardly being hit but it opens possibilities to break through a tank line but only a bit later in the game (as the upgrade would to be too expensive early on). The spell could also be used to take out static defenses a bit quicker (but once again spines could move back).
or another option,
- flak cannon, give the thor an ability to fire a shot dealing bonus damage to massive air units. Would help to give mech a little more chance to fight capital air (broodlords specifically).
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On October 28 2012 22:22 stichtom wrote:
I reallly like the new medivac uprgade idea.
Have you posted these idea on the battle.net forum?
No. Feel free to post any ideas there.
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25% more healing is too much, it won't be balanced at all.
My idea is to give madivacs 25% faster energy regeneration, this way terran will be able to make more pokes not loosing too much, and also fungal won't drain so many energy from all medivacs.
Maybe a good idea would be to make madivacs faster with this upgrade, but it will add some more multitasking, and it's already hard for terrans.
And about thor upgrade, in my opinion this 250 mm canon should be CD that thor starts with, it's useless anyway (well, it works vs immortals), and add upgrade so that thor would be able to autorepair. Like in campain. He stops attacking and is "healing" himself.
Ravens should start with HSM in my opinion. They still need energy upgrade to use it before 20 min into the game.
Protos shiled upgrade is ok, it's used all the time, sometimes even before other bonuses (for archons or air).
There is also one thing I don't really like. Toss has 2 upgrades for ground units, 2 for air and 1 for all. Zerg has 2 for air, 1 for range, 1 for melee and 1 for both (range and melee), and terran has 2 for bio, 2 for air and 2 for mech. Terrans often need all of them. When you go mech, you will for sure need to make air units aswell. Terran need those vikings so bad for support, and mech/air is already so gass intesive. My idea is to make armor upgrade for mech and air as one. This way going mech vs protos will be more efective (It's good vs tempests, stalkers), in TvT game won't end as soon as one of the terrans gets more air units and more air upgrades when both are meching, and in TvZ it won't change THAT much 'cos vikings are often pwned by fungal and armor doesn't matter anyway.
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What about Graviton Catapult?
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/b/b9/Graviton_catapult.gif)
Allows you to micro the Carrier Broodwar-style
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Graviton Catapult - Changed to Broodwar micro of CarrierThumbs up (18) 95% Thumbs down (1) 5% 19 total votes Your vote: Graviton Catapult - Changed to Broodwar micro of Carrier (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
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United States4883 Posts
On October 27 2012 09:48 SarcasmMonster wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's been lots of talk about how to fix underused units, but little discussion about upgrades. I guess units are more interesting  So here's a couple of suggestions I have. Caduceus Reactor![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/a/a8/Caduceus_reactor.gif) Additionally increases the Medivac's heal rate by 25%. Rationale: buff to lategame bio viability. Bio is indirectly nerfed in HOTS imo. + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Caduceus Reactor suggestionThumbs up (105) 59% Thumbs down (74) 41% 179 total votes Your vote: Caduceus Reactor suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/9/92/Neosteel_frames.gif) Additionally increases the carrying capacity of Medivac's by 25%. Rationale: buff to lategame bio drop play. Better rewards multitasking lategame. + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Neosteel Frame suggestionThumbs down (114) 71% Thumbs up (46) 29% 160 total votes Your vote: Neosteel Frame suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/f/f2/Hisec_auto_tracking.gif) Additionally increases Widow Mine range by 1. Rationale: Widow Mines more useful in the lategame. Not sure about this one, the cost of upgrade may need to increase. + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Hi-Sec Auto Tracking suggestionThumbs down (96) 70% Thumbs up (41) 30% 137 total votes Your vote: Hi-Sec Auto Tracking suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/d/d3/Shields_3.gif) Additionally increases the rate which shields recharge. Rationale: More competitive with armor upgrades. Now there is a choice you need to make. For example: Current implementation Level 0: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Level 1: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Level 2: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Level 3: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Possible new implementation Level 0: 1.5/shields per second after 11 seconds outside of combat Level 1: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Level 2: 2.5/shields per second after 9 seconds outside of combat Level 3: 3/shields per second after 8 seconds outside of combat + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Shield Upgrade suggestionThumbs up (91) 66% Thumbs down (46) 34% 137 total votes Your vote: Shield Upgrade suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/0b/Grooved_spines.gif) Additionally adds +3 dmg vs armored units. Technically, not an underused upgrade per se, rather the Hydralisk itself is underused. Rationale: Give it a place in ZvP like in BW. + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Grooved Spines suggestionThumbs down (63) 58% Thumbs up (45) 42% 108 total votes Your vote: Grooved Spines suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
A somewhat Terran-centric list but Terran has so many underused upgrades  What other changes should Blizz consider to make certain upgrades have more viability/depth?
Here's my take on these upgrade change ideas:
1) Caduceus Reactor: Costs 25/25 and is available as soon as you make a techlab on SP. Can't see how this would be a buff to the lategame...would obviously be a buff to the midgame, which MMM is already way too strong in.
2) Neosteel Frame: ....I'm not exactly sure if having an extra 2 marines or a marauder will change the effectiveness of a drop lategame. Certainly Neosteel Frame needs some extra work, but I can't imagine it really changing the way drops are done. However, who knows; putting something that feels useless in the game sometimes results in brilliant tactics (i.e. Dark Archons man!).
3) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking: Totally agree. No reason why this shouldn't affect the Widow Mine. I might even say it could get a 2 range bonus. The problem they are running into in the mid- to late-game is using effectiveness because everything just kind of outranges them...would be nice to see a range 6 or 7 widow mine in those circumstances.
4) Shield Upgrades: Eh...no lol. I think that the shield mechanics in SC2 are already really complicated. Would be nice to see some things like shield batteries added to the game though.
5) Grooved Spines: No reason to change this upgrade. Hydras are GOING to be good in HotS, it's just a matter of making them more useful in the midgame. I honestly think Blizzard needs to switch the speed and range upgrades around so that hydras can have speed in the midgame, range in the lategame.
Additional ideas posted:
6) 250mm Strike Cannons: Do SOMETHING with this upgrade and thors. This upgrade is the dumbest upgrade in the game...I would love to see Blizzard trying something like a lower-powered version of this on cooldown or tweaking it somehow. Because right now it's the only ability in the game that actually just makes the unit worse.
7) Behemoth Reactor: Yeah...maybe not the greatest upgrade in the game. I would honestly rather see the speed boost put back into the game. While it didn't change things too much, it still gives the potential for BC micro and fun tactics.
8) Graviton Catapult: :D Hahahaha
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On October 28 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 22:22 stichtom wrote:
I reallly like the new medivac uprgade idea.
Have you posted these idea on the battle.net forum? No. Feel free to post any ideas there.
I don't have a NA account too.
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You could change the medivac upgrade to a speed upgrade?
Of course it has to be later in the tech path (maybe fusion core)
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Nice ideas!
I like most of them. The game has to many units and abilities that rarely get used as it is. By buffing various upgrades new dynamics may be created.
Also removing strike cannons and thor energy is totally valid now I think because, toss can counter with immortals from robo AND with tempests from stargate.
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I think Zerg should have a mid game armor upgrade for their buildings. Both Toss and Terran have do and it would make taking out Hatches, Spires and other tech from drops harder.
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But it also would make spine crawler walls better, and this really is not needed.
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I am making a thread on this tomorrow(Maybe tonight) but here are a few changes to upgrades I am making in a mod
Behemoth Reactor
Increases Bcs speed to 2
Corvid reactor now increases raven energy regen by .3
Caduceus Reactor now increases medivac energy regen by .3
A NEW upgrades
Areal Thrusters
Increases Raven speed to 2.5
Increases Medivac speed to 2.75
Increases Banshee speed to 3.2
Makes Vikings move half speed while landing
transform time reduced to 2
Widdow mine Upgrade reducing reload cooldown by 10 (Though in mine is it lowered by 5 already)
Thor loses strike cannons
Gains auto repair
Unit shuts down repairing self gaining 2 armor (Note thors would start with 3 armor and other changes)
Costs 1 gas per 3 life
These are just a few changes I think would help a lot.
Feedback is Appreciated! :D
Note: There are more changes to every race
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I think the transformation ability for the Hellion should be added onto the blue flame upgrade because currently having the ability unlocked by the armory feels weird because once if the armory dies, then the units are stuck in their current form.
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I'm more inclined to to say an upgrade to Hydra's range or HP would be more beneficial rather than outright increasing their damage against armored. Increasing their damage vs Armored will hurt Stalkers mid game too much and force Protoss into rushing for Collossus. With Viper's abduct ability to nullify Collossus range advantage, Hydras would essentially become the Roach of the late game. Zerg wouldnt have to make anything else since Toss wouldn't have a unit to effectively combat it with the speed upgrade and all.
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On October 28 2012 23:47 blackbrrd wrote:What about Graviton Catapult? Allows you to micro the Carrier Broodwar-style + Show Spoiler +Poll: Graviton Catapult - Changed to Broodwar micro of CarrierThumbs up (18) 95% Thumbs down (1) 5% 19 total votes Your vote: Graviton Catapult - Changed to Broodwar micro of Carrier (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
How about you are allowed to micro Carrier Broodwar-style from the start of the game?
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I think you should say what upgrade does, so people who do not know will know what are you talking about exactly, you can link to the liquipedia articles or simply write down what each of them does, cause I am sure not everyone knows what each of them does.
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+3 damage to grooved spines? OP But a good idea. I would say give it +1 base damage and MAYBE an extra +1 v. armored. +3 is too much against a stalker army. Hydras already do a lot of DPS. I saw a thread earlier about an upgrade that adds to hydralisk health. I think thats a great idea, given that hydras already have enough damage.
I also like the shield upgrade the idea.
Hi- sec is a terrible idea, because widow mines are already ridiculous. We shouldn't look at this one until the unit itself goes through some changes.
Neosteel frame. OP obviously did this to help terrans exploit infestor/BL immobility, but its just too much. Drop play is already quite strong. If a lot more units were dropped, it would be OP because of how fast damage could be done, forcing a much faster reaction from the opponent than a normal drop of 8 supply would. +5 to heals? Lings wouldnt do anything.
Already marine/medivac balls can take on waves and waves of lings. If medivacs heal faster, t1 zerg units would be useless. That would be overpowered and ENCOURAGE infestor/BL play.
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EPT
