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There's been lots of talk about how to fix underused units, but little discussion about upgrades. I guess units are more interesting 
So here's a couple of suggestions I have.
Caduceus Reactor
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/a/a8/Caduceus_reactor.gif)
Additionally increases the Medivac's heal rate by 25%. Rationale: buff to lategame bio viability. Bio is indirectly nerfed in HOTS imo.
+ Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Caduceus Reactor suggestionThumbs up (105) 59% Thumbs down (74) 41% 179 total votes Your vote: Caduceus Reactor suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
Neosteel Frame
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/9/92/Neosteel_frames.gif)
Additionally increases the carrying capacity of Medivac's by 25%. Rationale: buff to lategame bio drop play. Better rewards multitasking lategame.
+ Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Neosteel Frame suggestionThumbs down (114) 71% Thumbs up (46) 29% 160 total votes Your vote: Neosteel Frame suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
Hi-Sec Auto Tracking
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/f/f2/Hisec_auto_tracking.gif)
Additionally increases Widow Mine range by 1. Rationale: Widow Mines more useful in the lategame. Not sure about this one, the cost of upgrade may need to increase.
+ Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Hi-Sec Auto Tracking suggestionThumbs down (96) 70% Thumbs up (41) 30% 137 total votes Your vote: Hi-Sec Auto Tracking suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
Shield Upgrade
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/d/d3/Shields_3.gif)
Additionally increases the rate which shields recharge. Rationale: More competitive with armor upgrades. Now there is a choice you need to make.
For example:
Current implementation
Level 0: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat
Level 1: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat
Level 2: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat
Level 3: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat
Possible new implementation
Level 0: 1.5/shields per second after 11 seconds outside of combat
Level 1: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat
Level 2: 2.5/shields per second after 9 seconds outside of combat
Level 3: 3/shields per second after 8 seconds outside of combat
+ Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Shield Upgrade suggestionThumbs up (91) 66% Thumbs down (46) 34% 137 total votes Your vote: Shield Upgrade suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
Grooved Spines
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/0b/Grooved_spines.gif)
Additionally adds +3 dmg vs armored units. Technically, not an underused upgrade per se, rather the Hydralisk itself is underused. Rationale: Give it a place in ZvP like in BW.
+ Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Grooved Spines suggestionThumbs down (63) 58% Thumbs up (45) 42% 108 total votes Your vote: Grooved Spines suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
A somewhat Terran-centric list but Terran has so many underused upgrades 
What other changes should Blizz consider to make certain upgrades have more viability/depth?
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Cool idea to discuss the underused upgrades. I actually think grooved spines is fine, but the others might need buffing.
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How about
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/02/250mm_strike_cannons.png) 250mm Strike Cannons
Most useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. It does less damage than a Thor with i think +2 ( maybe even already +1 ) would do with autoattack in the same time. Not to mention the Thor cannot move while using strike cannon and can still be fedbacked while setting up .
Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) lower the duration from 10 to 5 seconds and remove the setup time of 2 seconds.
.
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Neosteel frame should be way cheaper to help where it is needed, in the early game to defend allins. It is only affordable later in the game where bunkers become useless anyway. In Hots there are the mines to defend now, but in Wol it would be nice if it could be researched with the first bit of gas, or right after stim was started so it can finish in time to hold an allin.
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On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) and remove the setup time of 2 seconds .
I didn't know what to suggest aside from removal which isn't constructive. I don't think your suggestion will solve its problems since its normal ground attack DPS is pretty insane already.
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An increase to Medivac heal rate would make Caduceus Reactor an essential upgrade for Bio. I don't really like that concept since there are so many upgrades that Terran needs early on. (Stim, Shields, Conc, 1/1) Flat out buffing the Medivac with an increased heal rate would be better if Blizz was to go down that path.
If Medivac storage is buffed by an upgrade, then it should be later tech imo. Two Medivacs full of Rines dropping a base? That would be 24 Rines. They kill a probe in 4 seconds, meaning they clear a fully saturated mineral line in that time. Then they kill the Nexus in 10 seconds.
Maybe more like Fusion Core. I was going to say Armory, but that would be too far out from the Bio tech path, and the Fusion Core should have more uses. In exchange, the upgrade should be about a 50% increase.
I'm not sure about buffing Widow Mine range either, but more because it's useless in making Widow Mines more viable in the lategame.
Shield upgrade is iffy for me. It doesn't really seem very good, especially since it's a tiny little buff which most likely wouldn't motivate people to get it. The point of shield upgrades is to increase the durability of units, not make them able to recharge their shields better. Even if it doesn't increase the upgrade's use, however, it still seems nice, even if it isn't very exciting.
I like the idea of +3 vs armored on Hydras.
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Really like the Medivac upgrade change, but it think the cost needs to increase if it is implemented.
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On October 27 2012 10:03 Antylamon wrote:
An increase to Medivac heal rate would make Caduceus Reactor an essential upgrade for Bio. I don't really like that concept since there are so many upgrades that Terran needs early on. (Stim, Shields, Conc, 1/1) Flat out buffing the Medivac with an increased heal rate would be better if Blizz was to go down that path.
Regarding the Medivac heal rate, what you suggested is a problem is a good thing in my mind. Now there are more strategy/trade-offs choosing upgrades. Bio is more than fine early/mid game so I wouldn't approach it with a flat out buff.
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I agree that strike cannons are the single most useless thing in the game. Why do Thors bother carrying giant cannons on their back if they are never used?
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I wonder why people don't get the medivac upgrade in the super late game (as rare as that is) anyway. I suppose people don't want to put a techlab on a starport ( could easily swap it with barracks after though really, you have plenty of time for that in a stalemate 45 minute tvp
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I like the autotracking on widow mines idea, makes a lot of sense.
Grooved spines... hm not sure. I think the idea is right (a little more extra damage for the glascanon hydra), but I feel like this would overpower midgame roach/hydra play. I mean that's 3.6extra dps vs stalkers and canons, which are the main Protoss defenses. I prefer the more subtle better upgrade scaling idea, which gives around the same extra dps, but not too early.
Medivac heal... could be quite interesting.
Medivac extra capacity? I don't think this rewards multitasking. I mean you get more done per single drop so you have more units bound in less places, right? Also lategame Terran bio drops are already extremly devastating as they are now.
Shield Upgrade... I don't really think this does anything apart from adding more text to the game, even though the idea isn't bad.
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I think the better way to go with Neosteel frame would be to add the bunker health increase.that was a additional upgrade in the campaign and came as addtional to neosteel frame in the L2D map.
The problem is that there isn't much of a difference between a full bunker with 2 supporting marines vs a full Neosteel bunker. Even with the normal bunker it would still take fire priority over the outside marines because suddenly there is 15 SCVs around the bunker and its health turns to infinity.
Neosteel should be an investment in the defence. Something you can get if you suspect an all-in. Through it would probably be too late to start it when you scout it.
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I think that neosteel frame should be a 20 second upgrade individual for each bunker
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What about Behemoth reactor?
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/4/4b/Behemoth_reactor.gif)
25 extra starting energy for a Battlecruiser....
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I would also add that at least one of the 3(4 with building range ) Raven upgrades would be combined with another one.
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On October 27 2012 12:50 s3rp wrote:
I would also add that at least one of the 3(4 with building range ) Raven upgrades would be combined with another one.
Lore-wise, it should probably be Building Armor and Durable Materials since they're both about improving durability.
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On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. It does less damage than a Thor with i think +2 ( maybe even already +1 ) would do with autoattack in the same time. Not to mention the Thor cannot move while using strike cannon and can still be fedbacked while setting up . Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) lower the duration from 10 to 5 seconds and remove the setup time of 2 seconds. .
Remove that ability and give the thor a researchable ability of being able to make a mini blast cannon against a unit like the battlecruiser, so that it becomes like a grounded battlecruiser. That, or give it a cooldown ability that temporarily boosts its speed so it can keep up with the army..
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On October 27 2012 13:07 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 12:50 s3rp wrote:
I would also add that at least one of the 3(4 with building range ) Raven upgrades would be combined with another one. Lore-wise, it should probably be Building Armor and Durable Materials since they're both about improving durability.
Oh i forgot it's actually 5 upgrades that benefit Raven . Building Armor / Building Range / Corvid Reactor / HSM / HSM , Turret Duration ...
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I'd rather Medivacs be given Defense Matrix as an upgrade so that Medivacs can use energy in order to support Factory and Starport units.
Just remove the energy bar on Thors and delete Strike Cannons from the game.
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On October 27 2012 14:35 MoonCricket wrote:
I'd rather Medivacs be given Defense Matrix as an upgrade so that Medivacs can use energy in order to support Factory and Starport units.
Just remove the energy bar on Thors and delete Strike Cannons from the game.
But this makes no sense in terms of giving it to the medivac... It's a healing unit for bio, why give it DM for mech -.-t. Besides, it would take away from the supply of a solid mech mass because the medivacs would not deal damage in battle.
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On October 27 2012 09:59 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) and remove the setup time of 2 seconds . I didn't know what to suggest aside from removal which isn't constructive. I don't think your suggestion will solve its problems since its normal ground attack DPS is pretty insane already.
Easy ... here are three suggestions:
1. Remove the energy and make it a cooldown based ability
2. Make mechanical and/or massive units immune to Feedback
3. Remove the energy until the ability is researched.
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On October 27 2012 15:27 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 09:59 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) and remove the setup time of 2 seconds . I didn't know what to suggest aside from removal which isn't constructive. I don't think your suggestion will solve its problems since its normal ground attack DPS is pretty insane already. Easy ... here are three suggestions: 1. Remove the energy and make it a cooldown based ability 2. Make mechanical and/or massive units immune to Feedback 3. Remove the energy until the ability is researched.
Thors returns to its alpha anti-armor role. Due to the tempest oracle
Combo and widow mines,thor's Anti-muta role is reduced.
Either:
Replace 250 mm strike cannon with haywire missiles spell
OR
Redesign 250mm strike cannon into a channeled spell that fires all SIX cannons(four at back + two on arms) but makes it a terror on the field, necessitating oracle/tempests or oracle/immortals to halt Terran mass Thor doom march
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I wonder what would happen if Groove Spines would change into a +10 health upgrade at Hive level tech, and then moving the hydra 25% speed upgrade from HotS to Lair tech. Perhaps this will make Hydras more useful from the moment you can get them to even being somewhat "ok" late game. (with hydra range being 6 baseline instead of 5)
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I reallly like the new medivac uprgade idea.
Have you posted these idea on the battle.net forum?
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On October 27 2012 12:42 MasterCynical wrote:What about Behemoth reactor? 25 extra starting energy for a Battlecruiser....
This is actually not useless.
BC's got a slight stealth buff in HotS that yamato now only costs 100 energy. Given that TvT has resorted back to mech wars with the hellbat I expect that BCs will now actually become a common endgame unit in that matchup.
BC's being able to cast two yamato's in the crucial battles and just getting that first one quicker are the best way to break a tank stalemate imo. It's also a bit easier to have BC's now without an immediate air superiority because widow mines can occasionally even zone out vikings a little bit. For example moves like camping a starport are much riskier now if a widow mine is nearby.
At least I've gotten into a few TvT's already where i got the behemoth reactor and plenty of BC to finish the opponent after getting into a tank stalemate.
For the rest of the suggestions, most won't work well or are a bit silly imo. Like neosteel frame would solely be a medivac upgrade and never be gotten for bunkers. The autotracking for turrets is already common enough not to need a buff, besides buffing range by 1 for widow mines is too much as you can no longer outrange the mine with common units like stalkers and hydra's then.
The medivac heal upgrade is a decent idea, the upgrade's most common use now is just to fake getting cloak. If heal was buffed it might need to increase in cost a little though.
For most other upgrades unused upgrades i just suggest removing, it's just ugly having these useless upgrades in the game. Grooved spines is alright but I can see a buff to +2 range or +1 range and +10hp for hydra's. Giving bonus vs doesn't fit well though, zerg almost doesn't have this and it might make the hydra a little bit too strong in ZvP (quick hydra pushes would tear through stalkers and even a non-range colo would go down very quickly)
Biggest change needed is to 250mm cannon, I can't stand them leaving that upgrade as is. An upgrade which is in almost all cases terrible to get and even can actively make the unit worse (neural parasite) is just so ugly.
I would love to see them either buffing it slightly (make it faster or remove energy bar) or even better completely retool it to for example:
- mortar shot, the thor fires shells into the air landing at a long range of 15 dealing 100 damage in a small area of effect. The shot makes a distinguishable sound and the shells take some time to land so you can actually move away from being hit.
This spell would be a nice spell especially for TvT being able to break tanklines. If the opponent responds properly (to the sound for example) he could get away with tanks hardly being hit but it opens possibilities to break through a tank line but only a bit later in the game (as the upgrade would to be too expensive early on). The spell could also be used to take out static defenses a bit quicker (but once again spines could move back).
or another option,
- flak cannon, give the thor an ability to fire a shot dealing bonus damage to massive air units. Would help to give mech a little more chance to fight capital air (broodlords specifically).
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On October 28 2012 22:22 stichtom wrote:
I reallly like the new medivac uprgade idea.
Have you posted these idea on the battle.net forum?
No. Feel free to post any ideas there.
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25% more healing is too much, it won't be balanced at all.
My idea is to give madivacs 25% faster energy regeneration, this way terran will be able to make more pokes not loosing too much, and also fungal won't drain so many energy from all medivacs.
Maybe a good idea would be to make madivacs faster with this upgrade, but it will add some more multitasking, and it's already hard for terrans.
And about thor upgrade, in my opinion this 250 mm canon should be CD that thor starts with, it's useless anyway (well, it works vs immortals), and add upgrade so that thor would be able to autorepair. Like in campain. He stops attacking and is "healing" himself.
Ravens should start with HSM in my opinion. They still need energy upgrade to use it before 20 min into the game.
Protos shiled upgrade is ok, it's used all the time, sometimes even before other bonuses (for archons or air).
There is also one thing I don't really like. Toss has 2 upgrades for ground units, 2 for air and 1 for all. Zerg has 2 for air, 1 for range, 1 for melee and 1 for both (range and melee), and terran has 2 for bio, 2 for air and 2 for mech. Terrans often need all of them. When you go mech, you will for sure need to make air units aswell. Terran need those vikings so bad for support, and mech/air is already so gass intesive. My idea is to make armor upgrade for mech and air as one. This way going mech vs protos will be more efective (It's good vs tempests, stalkers), in TvT game won't end as soon as one of the terrans gets more air units and more air upgrades when both are meching, and in TvZ it won't change THAT much 'cos vikings are often pwned by fungal and armor doesn't matter anyway.
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What about Graviton Catapult?
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/b/b9/Graviton_catapult.gif)
Allows you to micro the Carrier Broodwar-style
+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Graviton Catapult - Changed to Broodwar micro of CarrierThumbs up (18) 95% Thumbs down (1) 5% 19 total votes Your vote: Graviton Catapult - Changed to Broodwar micro of Carrier (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
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United States4883 Posts
On October 27 2012 09:48 SarcasmMonster wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There's been lots of talk about how to fix underused units, but little discussion about upgrades. I guess units are more interesting So here's a couple of suggestions I have. Caduceus ReactorAdditionally increases the Medivac's heal rate by 25%. Rationale: buff to lategame bio viability. Bio is indirectly nerfed in HOTS imo. + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Caduceus Reactor suggestionThumbs up (105) 59% Thumbs down (74) 41% 179 total votes Your vote: Caduceus Reactor suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
Additionally increases the carrying capacity of Medivac's by 25%. Rationale: buff to lategame bio drop play. Better rewards multitasking lategame. + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Neosteel Frame suggestionThumbs down (114) 71% Thumbs up (46) 29% 160 total votes Your vote: Neosteel Frame suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
Additionally increases Widow Mine range by 1. Rationale: Widow Mines more useful in the lategame. Not sure about this one, the cost of upgrade may need to increase. + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Hi-Sec Auto Tracking suggestionThumbs down (96) 70% Thumbs up (41) 30% 137 total votes Your vote: Hi-Sec Auto Tracking suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
Additionally increases the rate which shields recharge. Rationale: More competitive with armor upgrades. Now there is a choice you need to make. For example: Current implementation Level 0: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Level 1: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Level 2: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Level 3: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Possible new implementation Level 0: 1.5/shields per second after 11 seconds outside of combat Level 1: 2/shields per second after 10 seconds outside of combat Level 2: 2.5/shields per second after 9 seconds outside of combat Level 3: 3/shields per second after 8 seconds outside of combat + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Shield Upgrade suggestionThumbs up (91) 66% Thumbs down (46) 34% 137 total votes Your vote: Shield Upgrade suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
Additionally adds +3 dmg vs armored units. Technically, not an underused upgrade per se, rather the Hydralisk itself is underused. Rationale: Give it a place in ZvP like in BW. + Show Spoiler [Poll] +Poll: Grooved Spines suggestionThumbs down (63) 58% Thumbs up (45) 42% 108 total votes Your vote: Grooved Spines suggestion (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
A somewhat Terran-centric list but Terran has so many underused upgrades What other changes should Blizz consider to make certain upgrades have more viability/depth?
Here's my take on these upgrade change ideas:
1) Caduceus Reactor: Costs 25/25 and is available as soon as you make a techlab on SP. Can't see how this would be a buff to the lategame...would obviously be a buff to the midgame, which MMM is already way too strong in.
2) Neosteel Frame: ....I'm not exactly sure if having an extra 2 marines or a marauder will change the effectiveness of a drop lategame. Certainly Neosteel Frame needs some extra work, but I can't imagine it really changing the way drops are done. However, who knows; putting something that feels useless in the game sometimes results in brilliant tactics (i.e. Dark Archons man!).
3) Hi-Sec Auto Tracking: Totally agree. No reason why this shouldn't affect the Widow Mine. I might even say it could get a 2 range bonus. The problem they are running into in the mid- to late-game is using effectiveness because everything just kind of outranges them...would be nice to see a range 6 or 7 widow mine in those circumstances.
4) Shield Upgrades: Eh...no lol. I think that the shield mechanics in SC2 are already really complicated. Would be nice to see some things like shield batteries added to the game though.
5) Grooved Spines: No reason to change this upgrade. Hydras are GOING to be good in HotS, it's just a matter of making them more useful in the midgame. I honestly think Blizzard needs to switch the speed and range upgrades around so that hydras can have speed in the midgame, range in the lategame.
Additional ideas posted:
6) 250mm Strike Cannons: Do SOMETHING with this upgrade and thors. This upgrade is the dumbest upgrade in the game...I would love to see Blizzard trying something like a lower-powered version of this on cooldown or tweaking it somehow. Because right now it's the only ability in the game that actually just makes the unit worse.
7) Behemoth Reactor: Yeah...maybe not the greatest upgrade in the game. I would honestly rather see the speed boost put back into the game. While it didn't change things too much, it still gives the potential for BC micro and fun tactics.
8) Graviton Catapult: :D Hahahaha
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On October 28 2012 22:37 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2012 22:22 stichtom wrote:
I reallly like the new medivac uprgade idea.
Have you posted these idea on the battle.net forum? No. Feel free to post any ideas there.
I don't have a NA account too.
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You could change the medivac upgrade to a speed upgrade?
Of course it has to be later in the tech path (maybe fusion core)
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Nice ideas!
I like most of them. The game has to many units and abilities that rarely get used as it is. By buffing various upgrades new dynamics may be created.
Also removing strike cannons and thor energy is totally valid now I think because, toss can counter with immortals from robo AND with tempests from stargate.
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I think Zerg should have a mid game armor upgrade for their buildings. Both Toss and Terran have do and it would make taking out Hatches, Spires and other tech from drops harder.
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But it also would make spine crawler walls better, and this really is not needed.
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I am making a thread on this tomorrow(Maybe tonight) but here are a few changes to upgrades I am making in a mod
Behemoth Reactor
Increases Bcs speed to 2
Corvid reactor now increases raven energy regen by .3
Caduceus Reactor now increases medivac energy regen by .3
A NEW upgrades
Areal Thrusters
Increases Raven speed to 2.5
Increases Medivac speed to 2.75
Increases Banshee speed to 3.2
Makes Vikings move half speed while landing
transform time reduced to 2
Widdow mine Upgrade reducing reload cooldown by 10 (Though in mine is it lowered by 5 already)
Thor loses strike cannons
Gains auto repair
Unit shuts down repairing self gaining 2 armor (Note thors would start with 3 armor and other changes)
Costs 1 gas per 3 life
These are just a few changes I think would help a lot.
Feedback is Appreciated! :D
Note: There are more changes to every race
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I think the transformation ability for the Hellion should be added onto the blue flame upgrade because currently having the ability unlocked by the armory feels weird because once if the armory dies, then the units are stuck in their current form.
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I'm more inclined to to say an upgrade to Hydra's range or HP would be more beneficial rather than outright increasing their damage against armored. Increasing their damage vs Armored will hurt Stalkers mid game too much and force Protoss into rushing for Collossus. With Viper's abduct ability to nullify Collossus range advantage, Hydras would essentially become the Roach of the late game. Zerg wouldnt have to make anything else since Toss wouldn't have a unit to effectively combat it with the speed upgrade and all.
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On October 28 2012 23:47 blackbrrd wrote:What about Graviton Catapult? Allows you to micro the Carrier Broodwar-style + Show Spoiler +Poll: Graviton Catapult - Changed to Broodwar micro of CarrierThumbs up (18) 95% Thumbs down (1) 5% 19 total votes Your vote: Graviton Catapult - Changed to Broodwar micro of Carrier (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
How about you are allowed to micro Carrier Broodwar-style from the start of the game?
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I think you should say what upgrade does, so people who do not know will know what are you talking about exactly, you can link to the liquipedia articles or simply write down what each of them does, cause I am sure not everyone knows what each of them does.
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+3 damage to grooved spines? OP But a good idea. I would say give it +1 base damage and MAYBE an extra +1 v. armored. +3 is too much against a stalker army. Hydras already do a lot of DPS. I saw a thread earlier about an upgrade that adds to hydralisk health. I think thats a great idea, given that hydras already have enough damage.
I also like the shield upgrade the idea.
Hi- sec is a terrible idea, because widow mines are already ridiculous. We shouldn't look at this one until the unit itself goes through some changes.
Neosteel frame. OP obviously did this to help terrans exploit infestor/BL immobility, but its just too much. Drop play is already quite strong. If a lot more units were dropped, it would be OP because of how fast damage could be done, forcing a much faster reaction from the opponent than a normal drop of 8 supply would. +5 to heals? Lings wouldnt do anything.
Already marine/medivac balls can take on waves and waves of lings. If medivacs heal faster, t1 zerg units would be useless. That would be overpowered and ENCOURAGE infestor/BL play.
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IThe reason why terran has so many unused upgrades is because they have way more than the other races already. I say either trim them down to the numbers of toss and zerg, or give the other races some new ones while making the old terran ones more useful. But it's ridiculous how many they have right now.
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United States7483 Posts
Caduceus reactor is an awful idea, protoss got no buff vs. Bio apart from the MSC early game, that'd make it nearly impossible to actually fight the terran army ever....
Terran doesn't need better drops.
Hi-Sec auto tracking is actually a great upgrade, it's underused because it's not needed unless the game goes long and the late game mass harass kicks in, but it's very strong, no reason to buff it. Terrans don't get it early on because any upgrades to static defense is less aggression, and protoss is generally the defender in the matchup. Once that aggression is forced to peter out, hi-sec auto tracking is actually a good upgrade. In TvZ it doesn't have much purpose that's true, nor does it in TvT. Buffing the widow-mines with it is pretty outrageous though, their range is quite deliberate to allow units to actually outrange it.
Protoss shield upgrade doesn't need a buff. PvZ it's a great upgrade that's overlooked because it's slightly more expensive than armor, but it's highly undervalued. In PvT there's an issue of EMP just making shields obsolete, but it's almost always researched if the game goes that long. In PvP it is researched if players actually reach 3/3.
Grooved spines doesn't need a buff either.
Caduceous reactor is just a bad idea in the first place, medivacs don't need an upgrade of any kind to be great.
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So why doesn't thor just get Dmatrix and they remove 250mm strike cannons?
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This isn't an actual upgrade just something I was thinking of the other day, but with Hellions/Hellbats being pushed as part of pure mech play, maybe there could be some kind of alternative upgrade to Infernal Pre-Igniter which swaps their bonus damage vs Light units to a bonus damage vs Mechanical units. They may lose a bit of effectiveness against Zealots and worker harass and such, but slightly more effective against Stalker heavy play or against Tank lines, and shouldnt be relevant/harmful to TvZ at all.
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I like the progressive shield idea, perhaps because I play Protoss. It would be a nerf at first but all the more reason to triple forge (;D)
Nice thread, interested in people's take.
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On October 27 2012 14:59 Demurity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 14:35 MoonCricket wrote:
I'd rather Medivacs be given Defense Matrix as an upgrade so that Medivacs can use energy in order to support Factory and Starport units.
Just remove the energy bar on Thors and delete Strike Cannons from the game. But this makes no sense in terms of giving it to the medivac... It's a healing unit for bio, why give it DM for mech -.-t. Besides, it would take away from the supply of a solid mech mass because the medivacs would not deal damage in battle.
Because it's not just a healing unit for Bio, that would be a Medic, it's also a drop ship for Mech. If the drop ship gained an additional role for Mech, i.e. Defense Matrix, then perhaps Hellion drops or Thor drops would be viable. The fact that the unit doesn't have a supporting role in a mech army, beyond that of a drop ship, is exactly why you need to give it one in order to encourage mech players to experiment with it as part of their general composition.
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On October 29 2012 15:06 Rhaven wrote:
This isn't an actual upgrade just something I was thinking of the other day, but with Hellions/Hellbats being pushed as part of pure mech play, maybe there could be some kind of alternative upgrade to Infernal Pre-Igniter which swaps their bonus damage vs Light units to a bonus damage vs Mechanical units. They may lose a bit of effectiveness against Zealots and worker harass and such, but slightly more effective against Stalker heavy play or against Tank lines, and shouldnt be relevant/harmful to TvZ at all.
Well, one of the counters to mech as zerg is mass roach overrun - and I think that would be hurt pretty badly.
Then there wouldn't be any counter to mech.
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I like a lot of your ideas. I would love to see your ideas for strike cannons
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tha widow mine range +1 is just plain stupid . how you kill it then ? since is alredy hard to kill it with its actual range . and dont tell me " you micro " cuz you have to spend tones of time micro while terran have time to do other stuff .
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On October 31 2012 23:00 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 15:06 Rhaven wrote:
This isn't an actual upgrade just something I was thinking of the other day, but with Hellions/Hellbats being pushed as part of pure mech play, maybe there could be some kind of alternative upgrade to Infernal Pre-Igniter which swaps their bonus damage vs Light units to a bonus damage vs Mechanical units. They may lose a bit of effectiveness against Zealots and worker harass and such, but slightly more effective against Stalker heavy play or against Tank lines, and shouldnt be relevant/harmful to TvZ at all. Well, one of the counters to mech as zerg is mass roach overrun - and I think that would be hurt pretty badly. Then there wouldn't be any counter to mech.
He said mechanical units; roaches aren't mechanical units.
However, removing the hellion bonus damage vs lings would be a bad idea.
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I like the terran ones, except hi sec. Like hi sec is one of those things you get when you are dealing with a muta heavy player and you want to give yourself better defense at home when u roll out. The medivac suggestion is actually a good one, I think players of other races would be pissed, but it actually would help a lot in TvP increased healing would help you revcover and handle all the AoE toss has at that point of the game.
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Can Durable Material be baseline please ?
Been saying it should be for like 6 month
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How about adding another underused upgrade? Protoss building plating. No matter what I upgrade all game long, my Protoss structures all stay at 0 armor. It could be something at the Robo Bay or the Forge. It would just be something for the late game. Seems reasonable since Protoss have the most expensive expansions that can't lift up or fight back. I wonder if it was ever in the game at some point, cause why would they even put the 0 next to the graphic if not?
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On October 31 2012 23:55 theniceninja wrote:
How about adding another underused upgrade? Protoss building plating. No matter what I upgrade all game long, my Protoss structures all stay at 0 armor. It could be something at the Robo Bay or the Forge. It would just be something for the late game. Seems reasonable since Protoss have the most expensive expansions that can't lift up or fight back. I wonder if it was ever in the game at some point, cause why would they even put the 0 next to the graphic if not?
The upgrade level always displays on upgrades no matter if there's actually an upgrade available there, you can't upgrade zerg building armor or any worker attack damage yet there's an upgrade counter there as well.
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On October 31 2012 23:55 theniceninja wrote:
How about adding another underused upgrade? Protoss building plating. No matter what I upgrade all game long, my Protoss structures all stay at 0 armor. It could be something at the Robo Bay or the Forge. It would just be something for the late game. Seems reasonable since Protoss have the most expensive expansions that can't lift up or fight back. I wonder if it was ever in the game at some point, cause why would they even put the 0 next to the graphic if not?
You can upgrade Protoss Shields, which works for all Protoss units and buildings.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Shields
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Poland3748 Posts
On October 27 2012 13:24 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. It does less damage than a Thor with i think +2 ( maybe even already +1 ) would do with autoattack in the same time. Not to mention the Thor cannot move while using strike cannon and can still be fedbacked while setting up . Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) lower the duration from 10 to 5 seconds and remove the setup time of 2 seconds. . Remove that ability and give the thor a researchable ability of being able to make a mini blast cannon against a unit like the battlecruiser, so that it becomes like a grounded battlecruiser. That, or give it a cooldown ability that temporarily boosts its speed so it can keep up with the army..
Maybe we should stick with transformers mood and make Thor transform into infantry carraige vehicle - mobiel bunker of sorts
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On October 31 2012 23:35 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2012 23:00 ArcticRaven wrote:On October 29 2012 15:06 Rhaven wrote:
This isn't an actual upgrade just something I was thinking of the other day, but with Hellions/Hellbats being pushed as part of pure mech play, maybe there could be some kind of alternative upgrade to Infernal Pre-Igniter which swaps their bonus damage vs Light units to a bonus damage vs Mechanical units. They may lose a bit of effectiveness against Zealots and worker harass and such, but slightly more effective against Stalker heavy play or against Tank lines, and shouldnt be relevant/harmful to TvZ at all. Well, one of the counters to mech as zerg is mass roach overrun - and I think that would be hurt pretty badly. Then there wouldn't be any counter to mech. He said mechanical units; roaches aren't mechanical units. However, removing the hellion bonus damage vs lings would be a bad idea.
I meant this as an alternative, you could either go Infernal Pre-Igniter, or a more Mech damaging upgrade, but after more thought, having two upgrades (even if you can only use one in each game) might make Hellions a little too flexible and do more harm than good.
And I had completely forgot more mass ling approach as I was more thinking on PvT matches, was a quick thought, but glad people are able to help figure out why could be good/bad when I forget something.
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The problem with strike cannons is that it's an attack that's useless against anything except for Immortals, Colossi, and other Thors. Against most other foes the Thor's a-move DPS is far better than strike cannon DPS.
IMO they should change the strike cannons back to their original design of a siege-range AoE attack (No stun), and get rid of the energy cost (change it back to a CD). This would give Thors the ability to threaten mineral lines from afar, or add their firepower to a tank vs tank duel, or even poke at deathballs from a safe distance. However, it would be much less damaging than A-Move in a close range fight, require the thor to stand still, and would not beat Immortals in a straight fight.
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On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. It does less damage than a Thor with i think +2 ( maybe even already +1 ) would do with autoattack in the same time. Not to mention the Thor cannot move while using strike cannon and can still be fedbacked while setting up . Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) lower the duration from 10 to 5 seconds and remove the setup time of 2 seconds. .
At the rate blizzard is going with current changes...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/eLF5s.png)
Thor now has the ability to transform into optimus prime.
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The medivac upgrade thing would be interesting for bio, that could help lategame quite a bit. Either that or...medivac speed upgrade! Remember when medivacs could fly fast guys? Before every unit got nerfed for T -_-
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wow nice thinking about the medivac upgrade... they could definitely turn it into something that helps bio (if needed), wonder if they've forgotten about it? X)
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:0 you forgot about the upgrade to increase phoenix range. bwahahaha
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On October 27 2012 13:24 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2012 09:55 s3rp wrote:How about 250mm Strike CannonsMost useless ability ingame ... only exists so Thors have energy and become useless in TvP. It does less damage than a Thor with i think +2 ( maybe even already +1 ) would do with autoattack in the same time. Not to mention the Thor cannot move while using strike cannon and can still be fedbacked while setting up . Suggestion IF they want to keep this ability . Lower cost to 100 (its 150 now ROFL ) lower the duration from 10 to 5 seconds and remove the setup time of 2 seconds. . Remove that ability and give the thor a researchable ability of being able to make a mini blast cannon against a unit like the battlecruiser, so that it becomes like a grounded battlecruiser. That, or give it a cooldown ability that temporarily boosts its speed so it can keep up with the army..
That last part about the cooldown i liked!
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The thing is that terran has something on the order of a hundred extra researchables compared to protoss or zerg, or broodwar terran even. It's mostly just a side effect of the WoL pre-beta mindset of the developer, where they were making about a billion different upgrades for the single player campaign and weren't really that well schooled on how to balance their own damn game yet.
Just because a researchable is bad doesn't mean that you really need to change it. Not clicking the button doesn't cost you any minerals. Really it's just some kind of OCD that makes people want every ability to be useful all the time. Just worry about whether the game is fun, balanced and interesting, and make changes to get the game closer to those goals. Don't design the game around unused icon art which is burning a proverbial hole in your pocket.
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Looks like Blizz took my Cadeus Reactor idea from OP! Ah yearhhh, I'm a m-fing game desinger!!
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It's not an upgrade, but I would add "Corruption" to the list. Even Blizzard stated that this spell made the Corruptor lame.
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EPT
