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I'm not a huge Dustin Browder fan when he fucks up but can someone people who are in the beta give him support for a change in this thread?
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6573699544?page=4#75
It's F grade level newbie ridiculous, blaming the entire A-Move / clumping / deathballing of units simply on how the code is for the movement. It's utterly inane (the guy clearly doesn't play Protoss and understand how shift click stalker blink works and why it's awesome)
I'm happy to give Blizzard shit when they deserve it but to see Dustin even have to respond to that idiotic thread which doesn't understand unit design features / skills / attack types causing deathballing is making my brain hurt.
Also for the love of fuck, anyone want to bump the carrier micro thread over there? I'm convinced Blizzard are going to quietly hope that thread dies.
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I actually played the modified Daybreak version some time ago with clan mates. The games did look exactly the same.
Zero difference at Mid-High master (too) for what i experienced.
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Blizzard have already said they want to focus on hots units before testing changes to WoL units.
I've tried the unit movement mods myself and I like all of them less than the current unit movement. It really is the same.
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I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad.
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On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad.
I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with
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On October 24 2012 22:42 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad. I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with
The PvZ endgame (in WoL) is becoming genuinely boring. That whole thing needs looking at, the neural vs vortex thing (the same) every time is diminishing it entirely.
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hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about?
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On October 24 2012 22:42 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad. I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with
That's because marines have stimpack. Like you said it has more to do with the units than the game itself.
Last night i was splitting speed Hydras vs banelings, not as much as awesome, but still fun!
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I find it hard to believe that people think microing aggainst the computer is a nice skill to watch. It's no different than having 12 units per control group. It's simply a mechanical limitation artificially created to make the game more difficult. In essence, it's nothing more than a mindless mouse trick, like it was to click through several gateways / rax etc to produce units individually in broodwar.
Also, saying that you need automated clumping so that microing doesn't disappear is also misleading. We could actually get to see much more cool microing because players know all their pre-splitting is for nothing as soon as they click move. As Dustin said, there are times where being clumped is beneficial, for example aggainst a mass of melee units like lings and zealots, so i'ts not like people would go with the units split all the time.
I personally think it's a bad move for the game not to have this, but it's their choice. I also completely disagree with how they test things. Testing internally with a couple of mediocre players, who tried it at most for a day, is really going to get them some good conclusions about the impact of that in the game in the long run... Keep doing good science folks. /s
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It's sad, but the game is dying bit by bit.
I dont know about blizzard mind set when changing stuff, sometimes I think that they have no idea about nothing.
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On October 24 2012 23:03 Apolo wrote:
I find it hard to believe that people think microing aggainst the computer is a nice skill to watch. It's no different than having 12 units per control group. It's simply a mechanical limitation artificially created to make the game more difficult. In essence, it's nothing more than a mindless mouse trick, like it was to click through several gateways / rax etc to produce units individually in broodwar.
Also, saying that you need automated clumping so that microing doesn't disappear is also misleading. We could actually get to see much more cool microing because players know all their pre-splitting is for nothing as soon as they click move. As Dustin said, there are times where being clumped is beneficial, for example aggainst a mass of melee units like lings and zealots, so i'ts not like people would go with the units split all the time.
I personally think it's a bad move for the game not to have this, but it's their choice. I also completely disagree with how they test things. Testing internally with a couple of mediocre players, who tried it at most for a day, is really going to get them some good conclusions about the impact of that in the game in the long run... Keep doing good science folks. /s
But...it doesn't actually change anything in practice. It's useless. So why implement it?
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On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about?
The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code.
Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness.
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On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness.
You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens.
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Protoss having big units is like a natural split and reduces the DPS/area, so clumping up their units is a MUST...
also, units like colossus and sentries benefits heavily from the deathball formation.
to make protoss stop deathballing around you need to change so much stuff that I can't see it being done by Blizz even in LotV.
Protoss players benefit more from working on their units position before fights like:
zealots<archons<sentries(GS,FF)<Immortals<sentries(GS)<stalkers<colossus/HT
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On October 24 2012 23:30 joeschmo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness. You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens.
I watched Effort split his banelings and lings when palying against Flash. Its essential to split your marines when facing tanks in TvT. The same can be said about any race vs infestors. Your knowledge of the game is lacking im afraid.
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On October 25 2012 00:29 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:30 joeschmo wrote:On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness. You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens. I watched Effort split his banelings and lings when palying against Flash. Its essential to split your marines when facing tanks in TvT. The same can be said about any race vs infestors. Your knowledge of the game is lacking im afraid.
its essential to split vs anything that does aoe, at least as terran. So basically:
Tanks, banes, fungal, storm, archons, collosus, widow mines
there are also a lot of fights where you want a good spread to get an arc or to decrease the effective dps of your opponent. such as against roaches and hydras. There is a lot of extra micro to be done because of clumping, just because we haven't seen it done properly yet, doesn't mean that the deathball will reign forever. Eventually, i truely believe that players will not want to deathball most of the time but rather have spread out, smaller battles around the map. We see it more and more, there are less 200/200 fights every month, more instances of multiple battles raging on the field of play and better micro and multitasking.
This game is no where near finished, its skill ceiling is no where near met and we have no idea how it will look in 1 years time, let alone 5 or 10 years time
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I am in agreement with those that believe the internal testing by blizzard was inadequate.
Looking at the linked video in the b.net post I don't see how this wouldn't have an affect on gameplay once people get good at using it. (As well Dustin Browder saying they had to click across the map to get it to work was really sketchy).
I think this mechanic would add to the skill of the game. Those players with high enough APM and wherewith all to remember to presplit their units will be rewarded over those that will have to do it sloppily in a battle. As well if I form my units into a concave and move across the map, a more aware player will be given the opportunity to attack me at the sides.
To the point of messing up stalker blink shift command, I wouldn't want this change to be implemented to universal unit movement, I would want an added "move in formation" command to preserve regular movement that players have become accustomed to.
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On October 24 2012 23:10 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:03 Apolo wrote:
I find it hard to believe that people think microing aggainst the computer is a nice skill to watch. It's no different than having 12 units per control group. It's simply a mechanical limitation artificially created to make the game more difficult. In essence, it's nothing more than a mindless mouse trick, like it was to click through several gateways / rax etc to produce units individually in broodwar.
Also, saying that you need automated clumping so that microing doesn't disappear is also misleading. We could actually get to see much more cool microing because players know all their pre-splitting is for nothing as soon as they click move. As Dustin said, there are times where being clumped is beneficial, for example aggainst a mass of melee units like lings and zealots, so i'ts not like people would go with the units split all the time.
I personally think it's a bad move for the game not to have this, but it's their choice. I also completely disagree with how they test things. Testing internally with a couple of mediocre players, who tried it at most for a day, is really going to get them some good conclusions about the impact of that in the game in the long run... Keep doing good science folks. /s But...it doesn't actually change anything in practice. It's useless. So why implement it?
(not that im taking the side of the dumbass there but) it should be implemented because from a user POV the game is sometimes, literally, unwatchable.
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I just have one question for everyone in general:
before SC2, when you thought of awesome, impressive control in an RTS, what did you think of? Did you think of flanking, concaves, and watching each unit's HP to make sure you maximize the lifespan of everything on the frontline?
or did you think of someone taking a tightly clumped ball of redcoats and splitting it into a spread-out formation?
Everyone talks about brood war movement as if it's "fighting the interface". how is unit-splitting not a form of fighting poorly made UI?
In WoL, it's "you didn't fight the interface well enough, so I'm going to get a maximum damage psi storm off".
In brood war, it was, "I fought the interface well enough and made it my bitch, so I'm going to get awesome storms on you".
It's gone from "well, anyone can have an army sent out in a reasonable formation (1a2a3a4a, not counting limbo-line syndrome), but only the best can control their spellcasters (battle the interface) to unleash obscene damage" to "well, anyone can control their spellcasters to unleash all sorts of awesome spells (smartcast), but only the best can have their entire army be anything besides a giant ball of stupid (battle the interface)."
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On October 24 2012 23:30 joeschmo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness. You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens.
It's the only splitting that happens, but that doesn't mean it's the only splitting that can and should happen.
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On October 25 2012 01:54 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 23:30 joeschmo wrote:On October 24 2012 23:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:On October 24 2012 22:59 love.less wrote:
hes right 100%. what is this thread, where you call "shift click stalker blink" awesome, actually about? The shift click stalker blinking (to a single spot on the map to get to a very tight position) would not work if they changed the movement code. Regardless if you don't like this or not, players should know how to fucking split their units. I'm all for engine improvements and not holding people back ridiculously (MBS arguments were fucking inane from closed minded folk) but this is madness. You mean, Terran should know how to split the bioball? And Zerg should split the Broodlord/infestor deathball versus a Vortex? Because that's all the splitting that actually happens. It's the only splitting that happens, but that doesn't mean it's the only splitting that can and should happen.
That is the only splitting we talk about. I break up my stalkers all the time, to get a better spread and more DPS. People spread out their units all the time for any number of reasons.
The other issue that people don't talk about is that sometimes you want your units to clump. In the Blizzard response, they point that out and that changing the current system may make it much harder to get your units into a tight space.
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The entire game revolves around how the units clump.
Not to mention micro'ing against splash is a skill. So, good for Blizzard. No need to make it more easy for people who can't micro.
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On October 25 2012 03:51 PauseBreak wrote:
The entire game revolves around how the units clump.
Not to mention micro'ing against splash is a skill. So, good for Blizzard. No need to make it more easy for people who can't micro.
yeah...that's it...Units clump so much almost all micro you do is undone as soon as they move a little bit. It's stupid and makes AOE too good. The movement being how it was in BW sure as hell didnt make people worry about not having enough micro, well designed units took care of that. Blizzard missing the point again, almost seemingly on purpose to support their own mistakes.
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On October 25 2012 04:55 Serpico wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 03:51 PauseBreak wrote:
The entire game revolves around how the units clump.
Not to mention micro'ing against splash is a skill. So, good for Blizzard. No need to make it more easy for people who can't micro. yeah...that's it...Units clump so much almost all micro you do is undone as soon as they move a little bit. It's stupid and makes AOE too good. The movement being how it was in BW sure as hell didnt make people worry about not having enough micro, well designed units took care of that. Blizzard missing the point again, almost seemingly on purpose to support their own mistakes.
Are you kidding? I had to spend so much time trying to make my drunken Marines do what I want them to do. They were always stupid when it came to navigating a thin choke, too.
Also, BW had autocast, meaning you had to pay less attention on movement compared to SC2, but a whole damn lot more focus on casting spells to prevent all of your HTs from depleting their energy on a cloaked Wraith.
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Wow that thread made my brain hurt. I feel so sorry for the blue posters all the time -_-
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ever played Age of Empires 2 The Conquerors? It is pretty old and did not have unlimited unit selection (and you had to individually click on buildings to produce stuff, as multiple building selection only allowed to produce from the first selected building), but it had unit formations. You could use a clumped up line-formation for standard battles, split formation (into two equal groups) for flanking, spread out formation to prevent splash damage, and a formation where your precious units (like monks/siege units) would walk in the middle and your other units would form a circle around them to prevent runbys into your precious yet fragile units (i didn't use this quite as much).
Did it decrease the skill ceiling? No, it did not, as you still had to pick the right formation at the right time, and still micro each unit individually. Instead, it added to the game, as it allowed you to focus on individual micro in battles, not just overall micro (dodging heavy attacks, arrows, focusing units, flanking and what not). It sure had its flaws sometimes, but overall it made the game way better, and did not take away skill, but rather opened up for skill to take place instead of chores.
Would like to see something like that added to SC2 as well =)
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On October 25 2012 05:22 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 04:55 Serpico wrote:On October 25 2012 03:51 PauseBreak wrote:
The entire game revolves around how the units clump.
Not to mention micro'ing against splash is a skill. So, good for Blizzard. No need to make it more easy for people who can't micro. yeah...that's it...Units clump so much almost all micro you do is undone as soon as they move a little bit. It's stupid and makes AOE too good. The movement being how it was in BW sure as hell didnt make people worry about not having enough micro, well designed units took care of that. Blizzard missing the point again, almost seemingly on purpose to support their own mistakes. Are you kidding? I had to spend so much time trying to make my drunken Marines do what I want them to do. They were always stupid when it came to navigating a thin choke, too. Also, BW had autocast, meaning you had to pay less attention on movement compared to SC2, but a whole damn lot more
Having to do more work isn't always better. SC 2 movement is moronic and ruins all spreading you do almost instantly when you move your army. It's beyond tedious, it's asinine to clump that much. There have been huge posts pointing this out for a reason, it isn't fun or good from a spectator's point of view.
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On October 24 2012 23:07 hotsuma wrote:
It's sad, but the game is dying bit by bit.
I dont know about blizzard mind set when changing stuff, sometimes I think that they have no idea about nothing.
Its not getting more popular, but it still has a pretty large fanbase considering that it hasn't released an expansion yet to fill the gap of players who bought the game at release and then left for any number of reasons.
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On October 25 2012 03:51 PauseBreak wrote:
The entire game revolves around how the units clump.
Not to mention micro'ing against splash is a skill. So, good for Blizzard. No need to make it more easy for people who can't micro.
so brood war micro is easy? lmao -_-
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I'm the OP of that thread, but I'm not in the beta. I posted it before they locked the forum, but I still haven't recieved an invite to the beta.
I think people aren't seeing the entire side of what this change could mean for pro play, esports, and their own laddering if this change is implemented. I'm sorry, but it's been nearly 3 years, and pro unit micro during battles is not anywhere near as watchable as BW, neither has it changed much. I'm sure many people are fans of the straight-forward style of unit clumping and what it means for battles. It's inevitable, it's fast, and easy to a-move. The benefits in small, twitchy micro movements are minimilized by how quickly unit formation clumps, both players knowing how units move (because it's so predictable), no matter how fast he/she micros, neither will see the huge benefit from micromanagement you got in BW.
An example is day9's baseballs and frisbees. The pacing of the game is simply too fast with the speed at which units clump for you to see a greater return from superior unit micro.
For those thinking I'm ignoring things like bane, rine splitting. I understand the return, I simply don't think it's all there is to get out of this game.
There is more there. If you cannot see how this is a buff to players with superior micro, then IMO you have little imagination. This change, once tinkered with on a pro level, means battles become even more situational as you will have to conisder your opponents unit formation before engaging, flanking becomes more effective, minute micro will mean more return when performed correctly.
I'm sorry, this all seems so obvious to me. Dustin Browder is Platinum. I take his internal testing of this with a grain of salt. Unit stats are one thing, I can trust bliz with that... a bit... but this is something entirely different.
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I seriously hope this whole "modified movement" thing is just some stupid fad that is going to die out soon.
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On October 25 2012 11:04 Robotix wrote:
I seriously hope this whole "modified movement" thing is just some stupid fad that is going to die out soon.
Nah. It's been around since Beta. It's here to stay until Blizzard does something.
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I have to agree with Dustin.
I am not sure that changing unit clumping would remove death balls. If anything, it may make death balls stronger, because units in a death ball would automatically pre-split and suffer less damage from AOE.
I believe a proper change against death balls should incorporate stronger positional space-control units and stronger AOE or a combination of these changes with modified unit movement. For reasoning please have a look at this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=373484
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On October 25 2012 10:38 quistador wrote:
An example is day9's baseballs and frisbees. The pacing of the game is simply too fast with the speed at which units clumps for you to see a greater return from superior unit micro.
This is a really important point. Yes Dunstin we can split things now but everything just re-clumps again so quickly...
Keep the pressure up (with good arguments) on the beta forums guys! 
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On October 25 2012 11:37 Aetherial wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 10:38 quistador wrote:
An example is day9's baseballs and frisbees. The pacing of the game is simply too fast with the speed at which units clumps for you to see a greater return from superior unit micro.
This is a really important point. Yes Dunstin we can split things now but everything just re-clumps again so quickly... Keep the pressure up (with good arguments) on the beta forums guys!
Isn't that good? It adds skill requirement to play against AOE. Or do you want to have automatic pre-split, so that the game has only A-move and nothing else?
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On October 25 2012 11:43 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 11:37 Aetherial wrote:On October 25 2012 10:38 quistador wrote:
An example is day9's baseballs and frisbees. The pacing of the game is simply too fast with the speed at which units clumps for you to see a greater return from superior unit micro.
This is a really important point. Yes Dunstin we can split things now but everything just re-clumps again so quickly... Keep the pressure up (with good arguments) on the beta forums guys! Isn't that good? It adds skill requirement to play against AOE. Or do you want to have automatic pre-split, so that the game has only A-move and nothing else?
I can't believe your the one who created the thread about anti-deathballs -_-;;
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/U8JP9.jpg)
They are slightly spaced. Splitting is still required especially with a buff to AOE radius+dmg to compensate.
+ Show Spoiler [This is what it looks like right now] +
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I'd rather remove a tiny amount of micro needed (a stupid amount needed to stop clumping anyways) in order for the game to not look like glob vs glob.
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On October 25 2012 11:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 11:43 Alex1Sun wrote:On October 25 2012 11:37 Aetherial wrote:On October 25 2012 10:38 quistador wrote:
An example is day9's baseballs and frisbees. The pacing of the game is simply too fast with the speed at which units clumps for you to see a greater return from superior unit micro.
This is a really important point. Yes Dunstin we can split things now but everything just re-clumps again so quickly... Keep the pressure up (with good arguments) on the beta forums guys! Isn't that good? It adds skill requirement to play against AOE. Or do you want to have automatic pre-split, so that the game has only A-move and nothing else? I can't believe your the one who created the thread about anti-deathballs -_-;; They are slightly spaced. Splitting is still required especially with a buff to AOE radius+dmg to compensate. + Show Spoiler [This is what it looks like right now] +
Ok, I agree. Sorry. I'm having a crazy day today I should've thought a bit more before posting 
On topic: You would still need stronger AOE to compensate then. So that's quite a bit of rebalancing.
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The only thing we really need is a slightly bigger collision size for most units. Pathing is fine.
200/200 army should cover a lot of surface, so a smaller army (i.e. An opponent who's behind in supply) with superior micro can still engage the weakest side gaining an advantage, while a clash between two equivalent armies can last longer than usual because not every unit is in range. It is a lot more viewer friendly too.
What happens now is... 200 marines that in half a second comes simultaneously to 5 range. How cool.
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I feel a bit conflicted, I like the idea of breaking up death-balls, but I fear this isn't the way to do it. Browder brings up very legitimate points, and I know the Blizz team is seriously trying to ensure that we can have a larger element of micro that can split up the action outside of the generic death-ball, but from what I've seen and read this doesn't have enough impact.
I'm going to side with DB on this one, there's a lot of ground to cover as far as things we want in HotS, and this anti-blob movement doesn't seem to have a great effect compared to some of the alternatives (such as finishing up new unit balance and moving on to WoL unit balance with the new units in mind, or the ungodly amount of new UI/replay features we've been asking for).
In summary though, I'm glad the beta testers are leaving no stone un-turned (I hope to join them soon if I get a key), and I'm glad the Blizz team is willing to listen to community/pro advice, as well as take actual steps (such as removing the old Warhound/re-adding the Carrier). I feel a cautious optimism for the future.
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On October 25 2012 11:53 Alex1Sun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 11:47 SarcasmMonster wrote:On October 25 2012 11:43 Alex1Sun wrote:On October 25 2012 11:37 Aetherial wrote:On October 25 2012 10:38 quistador wrote:
An example is day9's baseballs and frisbees. The pacing of the game is simply too fast with the speed at which units clumps for you to see a greater return from superior unit micro.
This is a really important point. Yes Dunstin we can split things now but everything just re-clumps again so quickly... Keep the pressure up (with good arguments) on the beta forums guys! Isn't that good? It adds skill requirement to play against AOE. Or do you want to have automatic pre-split, so that the game has only A-move and nothing else? I can't believe your the one who created the thread about anti-deathballs -_-;; They are slightly spaced. Splitting is still required especially with a buff to AOE radius+dmg to compensate. + Show Spoiler [This is what it looks like right now] + Ok, I agree. Sorry. I'm having a crazy day today I should've thought a bit more before posting On topic: You would still need stronger AOE to compensate then. So that's quite a bit of rebalancing.
Stronger AOE coupled with more spread out armies means players can finally afford to leave units behind for defense, instead of having to bring every single unit they have to the 200/200 engagement or lose.
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On October 25 2012 12:15 Adersick wrote:
I'm going to side with DB on this one, there's a lot of ground to cover as far as things we want in HotS, and this anti-blob movement doesn't seem to have a great effect compared to some of the alternatives
With what testing? There are a couple posted games with Modified Movement used, but remember how long the game was out before players started splitting vs banes? They used to just target fire banes, now they split and target. This change brings more tactical possibilities due to longer battles through more accurate microing.
I only think a slight radius buff is necessary to aoe. .5 to all aoe accross the board. The numbers are already balanced around how many shots it takes to kill base units.
EDIT: Banking on the HOPE that fungle is changed.
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On October 24 2012 22:42 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad. I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with
The problem isnt that Marines have to split, but that there has been a change of micro from BW to SC2.
- In BW you had to micro as the ATTACKER. (Mutas, Carrier, Dark Swarm+units, BC+Defensive Matrix from Science vessel)
- In SC2 you have to micro as the DEFENDER. (X vs. Banelings)
This is a terrible shift and one of the really bad changes. To give Terrans a way to "force micro" they could simply increase the trigger range for the Seeker Missile from "I have to be in range for you to shoot me down" to something longer. Since the missile is rather expensive, has only a slow speed and only has a limited lifespan it isnt so bad if you trigger it from further away. Opponents can micro against this.
Personally I dont think that changes to units - like Blizzard intends to only look at - will cut it. I needs more drastic changes to the general mechanics (unit selection, unit movement, production/economy speed boosts) to make it more appealing to casuals like me, because I get overwhelmed by the amount of units AND I like defensive playstyle much more than a general "big army [which is useless without fast control] vs. another big army" style which is currently the only successful one.
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On October 25 2012 14:42 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 22:42 MateShade wrote:On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad. I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with Personally I dont think that changes to units - like Blizzard intends to only look at - will cut it. I needs more drastic changes to the general mechanics (unit selection, unit movement, production/economy speed boosts) to make it more appealing to casuals like me, because I get overwhelmed by the amount of units AND I like defensive playstyle much more than a general "big army [which is useless without fast control] vs. another big army" style which is currently the only successful one.
Why not try mech? There are people who have made it work in every matchup. A big plus is that it's much less about micro than any other defending strategy and more about positioning and planning.
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On October 25 2012 15:32 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 14:42 Rabiator wrote:On October 24 2012 22:42 MateShade wrote:On October 24 2012 22:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
I like the idea of the players requiring split skills, it's great. Sure I personally can't do it but the pros don't seem to care.
This game has much bigger isues to worry about, that guy being in the beta makes me sad. I think a big issue though is that Zerg and Protoss rarely have to split their units, it would be nice if there were some things implemented in the game so that marines weren't the only units you could maximize surface area with Personally I dont think that changes to units - like Blizzard intends to only look at - will cut it. I needs more drastic changes to the general mechanics (unit selection, unit movement, production/economy speed boosts) to make it more appealing to casuals like me, because I get overwhelmed by the amount of units AND I like defensive playstyle much more than a general "big army [which is useless without fast control] vs. another big army" style which is currently the only successful one. Why not try mech? There are people who have made it work in every matchup. A big plus is that it's much less about micro than any other defending strategy and more about positioning and planning.
Agreed, but disagree with the latter -- yes there is generally less micro during a fight, but good micro will still significantly improve your army's power. You'll still have to micro/stack/split Vikings, target fire with tanks, cut/split with hellions, EMP immortals/HT/etc., etc. etc. The splitting up of MMM is ideally done before a fight, similar to how you already position and siege up your tanks before a fight, so really the only thing you are missing (though this is a big one) is kiting/splitting your MMM ball during a battle.
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Dustin and the high level players agreeing with him are correct - I've done the mod as well many times and there is no difference in gameplay. The big reason is because you can select all your units and give them the same exact command to one exact location. In Brood War, there was no way to be absolutely precise, both from your selection of units and where their movement path began, and the point at which you ordered them to. It is a function of the number of units we can select now, NOT THE CODE. Lay off Dustin, jesus.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kx6vZ.jpg)
