EPTWarpgates are NOT the biggest problem of protoss . - Page 4
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
However I don't feel the current mechanic is logical in the slightest. It would be much much cooler to have a tradeoff against the advantage :/ Risk / reward. I've posted this extensively across this forum and most people seem to be in agreement. Not that I think there's a hope in hell Blizz would pay attention but I'm quite convinced this would make for more exciting matches when spectating. Sigh. | ||
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Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
On October 17 2012 09:47 FoxShine wrote: Nerfing a unit isn't how you go about it. If colossus gets messed with it will get nudered and be useless, they might as well remove it if they make it any weaker. The units the protoss has that NEVER get used are what needs to be tweaked right?? I mean the whole reason they aren't being used is because they suck or are not worth the investment. We had/have this problem with every single protoss air unit. The phoenix barely started seeing its use, and the majority of the Hots changes are revolving around the carrier, tempest, oracle and mother-ship (even though its not out of stargate). Protoss needs a stronger air army. When im playing hots i have the same mentality i did in WoL. I have to get my upgrades going and start some colossus production. I agree colossus is too much of a great unit that its like required in every fight, but i still hold to my belief that it is because there are no other good units to choose from really. I disagree. My point was that only by removing the one unit that protoss falls back on in almost every game can we discover exactly how weak the alternatives are. And only by nerfing colossus can we provide a stronger alternative without making P too strong overall. Basically I want the colossus to never get build for a while. If not then there is no way to safely say what such a nerf would do to P styles of play. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
On October 16 2012 06:25 SnipedSoul wrote: Do something with the colossus. It's everything wrong with the game. It pretty much has to be in a deathball and has little to no capacity for micro beyond basic repositioning and focus firing. Puck/Leiya has had the collossus do some amazing things. Though, in the lategame its stupid. I hate collossus wars PvP I know blizz wants some easier to use units in the game but man, the collossus, it makes me sad. | ||
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InFkHand
Canada46 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13408 Posts
On October 17 2012 12:06 InFkHand wrote: The problem with protoss is the sentry. It is too necessary to have sentries in your army for early to mid game. It counters everything. This always leads to the same progressive composition towards the late game. Also, most if not all protoss all-ins rely on the sentry, which also makes the game boring. The other races can use different compositions to create a dynamic situation, but; if protoss does not make sentries he/she loses. Thats no different from any other core unit. How many sentries you can make and what they are for makes differences There are 4 sentry builds PvT, 2 sentry builds, 1 sentry PvP, many sentry PvP etc etc | ||
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Kfcnoob
United States296 Posts
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terranghost
United States980 Posts
On October 17 2012 10:24 aZealot wrote: Have you seen the history of Zealot build times, both in PTR and post-patch? Or seen the trialed build times for Zealot, Stalker, Sentry for the final WG nerf patch, 1.3.3 IIRC? And you want Zealots out of gates in, possibly, 18 seconds with CB? There is an easy fix for this which was not tried yet. Make gateways produce at the same speed they do now and warpgates produce at the speed gateways do now. After warp gate research is done it enables gateways to turn into warpgates and has the secondary effect of speeding up gateway production to the speed that warpgates have now. I would like to simply see a movement speed (and possibly acceleration speed) reduction for the collossus The reaver was mainly micro intensive because for it to get anywhere you needed a shuttle along too. This would also add into breaking apart the death ball because more supply would go into transports so the collosi could keep up with the army. But would add risk because if you got caught with your pants down and a few vikings/corruptors flew by and shot at all of your warp prisms well good bye protoss army. Also with warp prisms automatically added into the army this would hopefully encourage more harrassment with the prisms. I mean might as well I am building them anyway. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
And if the time is the main cost of both researches, it becomes a build priority issue rather than a resource cost issue. Both upgrades can be cheap. | ||
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Pigzyf5
Australia131 Posts
Warp gate ruines that type of tention and patches up the weaknesses of an inmonlies strong army making it an un-exsplotable strat which is boring to play against and watch. But if say the death ball was weaker and gateway units where better then protoss could make use of the warpgate in some really fun all over the map moblie plays. with multipronged attack and what not. Warp gate can be cool, its really unique but it is being used to prop up lame strats | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On October 17 2012 11:38 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: Look they may need to initially tweak the times, I admit that. However I don't feel the current mechanic is logical in the slightest. It would be much much cooler to have a tradeoff against the advantage :/ Risk / reward. I've posted this extensively across this forum and most people seem to be in agreement. Not that I think there's a hope in hell Blizz would pay attention but I'm quite convinced this would make for more exciting matches when spectating. Sigh. I'm not sure I understand? What would improve, for a spectator, from swapping gateway/warpgate build times? Even with undefined 'tweaks' (whatever they may be)? Why is it cooler to have a tradeoff? What kind of tradeoff? Why? I'm not too concerned about other people's agreement. A lot of recent Protoss theory crafting has been idiotic, IMO. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On October 17 2012 12:41 terranghost wrote: There is an easy fix for this which was not tried yet. Make gateways produce at the same speed they do now and warpgates produce at the speed gateways do now. After warp gate research is done it enables gateways to turn into warpgates and has the secondary effect of speeding up gateway production to the speed that warpgates have now. That's an interesting idea. And a good one to the problem of fast gateway production, too early (I could hear the Zerg wail at 18 second Zealots). But why would I, as a Protoss, want a Zealot at 28 seconds out of a Gateway when I can have a Zealot out of a Warpgate at 28 seconds and also with the advantage of producing anywhere on the map with a pylon or a warp prism? | ||
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
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Von
United States363 Posts
Needs to be replaced with a different low HP, high damage (hi risk / hi reward) micro intensive unit that a. Allows for many creative and varied tactics b. Does not lend itself to massing c. Does not become a core unit that aggregates deathballs. It's not that the Reaver / Shuttle combo is the only possible solution. Its that the Reaver / Shuttle combo illustrates the qualities of the unit(s) that needs to take the place of the Colossus. | ||
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StandAloneComplex
65 Posts
On October 17 2012 07:12 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: Your warpgate / gateway poll is missing all the relevant options it needs. Done , Mr Sanchez. | ||
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FancYCaT
45 Posts
Standard Production (only going to mention Stalker Zealot Sentry here): Zealot (38), Stalker (42), Sentry (37) Warp in cooldown: Zealot (28), Staker, (32), Sentry (32) Secondly I want to mention my idea regarding warpgate/gateway mechanics: I think it would be a good idea (as many people mentioned before (in other posts here on TL) to even out warp in cooldowns and gateway build duration. I don't really want to mention numbers but it could look like a middle-path compared to right now. (For example Stalker warp-in cd and build time 37). The main problem of protoss units is not that gateway units are too weak but they are cost inefficent (which is no doubt some kind of weakness, but their actualy strenght in combat is really good and I think making units themselves stronger would be hard to balance). This does not allow to protoss to trade efficently without high tier support units enhanching deathball play. I would like to hear you opinion on making equal times for warp cooldown (Warpgate) and build time (Gateway) while adding a 20% reduced cost in gas and minerals if a unit is build in a gateway. (I say 20% here cause it would feel like a very round number right now, might be too much (Stalker would be 100/40, Zealot 80, Senry 40/80) this would allow protoss to produce units the "standard" way and allow to trade these more cost efficent while you still have the possibility to keep some gates warpgates for defense or harrasment via warp prism or an all in. Please keep in mind that I just threw some numbers in here, so don't pay too much attention to them. | ||
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rollAdice
Germany32 Posts
Hots won't fix that with the new units that are getting introduced. The only way to fix this is by fixing the colossus by either getting rid of it or completely overhauling the unit. | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
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StandAloneComplex
65 Posts
On October 18 2012 01:42 FancYCaT wrote: I would like to hear you opinion on making equal times for warp cooldown (Warpgate) and build time (Gateway) while adding a 20% reduced cost in gas and minerals if a unit is build in a gateway. (I say 20% here cause it would feel like a very round number right now, might be too much (Stalker would be 100/40, Zealot 80, Senry 40/80) this would allow protoss to produce units the "standard" way and allow to trade these more cost efficent while you still have the possibility to keep some gates warpgates for defense or harrasment via warp prism or an all in. Please keep in mind that I just threw some numbers in here, so don't pay too much attention to them. I think that warpgates are not the biggest issue of toss in WOL . But i admit that they are an issue . Their is no need to denial that. In my opinion the best solution for the warpgate would be to switch the building times of gateway and warpgate, like it was said in posts before.So that the warpgates take longer to warp in then the gateways to build an unit. I think the developer took the idea of warping in units a little bit too far,because the don't realized that warping in units on nearly every point on the map, is an powerful ability on its own and that adding also the benefit of shorter buildtimes than the gateway has causes balancing issues. Switching buildtimes between warpgate and gateway has the following benefits: 1. It would add an strategic reason for transforming an warpgate back into an gateway. This would lead to an deeper gameplaymechanic, where the players must figure out at which time is it good to have which amount of gateways and which amount of warpgates. And so the gateways would become useful in the lategame. 2.Early units could be made a bit stronger, because of the cooldown nerf and so toss would feel more powerful in the earlygame. The Downside would be, that their would be no more intense timing-pushes where you try to hold on against an pushing toss and even if you kill his units he is warping in again and again. So even better is the idea of giving warpgates energy instead of cooldown , in an way like the nexus has it for chronoboost or the commandcenter has it for mules.You could balance the energy which is needed for one warpin so, that the time between warpins would take longer then the gateway needs to build.This would have following additional benefits: In combination with an alter version of the mothershipcore´s abillity energize , could it be possible, in my opinion, to balance warping in bigger units like the colossus or immortal. This would work as follow: The gateway could save up a max of 200 energy. Zealot and stalker coast each 200 energy to warp in but , and this would be the important point, i would give the mothershipcore the ability to suck up 800 energy max with the reinvented ability energize, similar to the viper sucking up energy, only with the difference that the mothershipcore would not damage the building but rater transports the energy from the building to itself and from their, if the player wants, to another building or unit , which can save energy. So that the new energize works in both directions , suck up energy and save it on the mothershipcore and the other direction would be to give an unit/building energy form the mothersipcore. And if the mothershipcore sucks 4 warpgates dry and gets up to 800 energy it could generate an stationary field and warp in 2 Immortals or 2 Colossi for the warpin-coast of 400 for each warping in an unit out of the robotic facility. | ||
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DarkblueRH
United States144 Posts
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