EPTSure, #1 GM is going to be matched against bronze..
TvP Mech still not viable? - Page 47
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
Sure, #1 GM is going to be matched against bronze.. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9404 Posts
On December 19 2012 23:23 Everlong wrote: Sure, #1 GM is going to be matched against bronze.. Read his post again. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 19 2012 10:10 RanDomFox wrote: WoL suffers from a lack of imagination compared to brood war, this thread proves it. people thought there was only 1 way to mech vs zerg in WoL (thors, tanks, hellions, etc... and a massive push at either 150/200 or 200/200) but go watch how baby just beat symbol in code A. He's a smart man. think outside of the box people! When some PROFESSIONAL can make it work doesnt mean that "Joe Bronzeleague" can make it work too. The game is first and foremost there to provide FUN to ALL players and not as a "vessel for eSport". | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
I see, you are this kind of person you just don't argue with.. I will save my and your time and let games speak for itself. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 19 2012 22:47 Everlong wrote: Anyways, you can watch how mech "doesn't" work here.. http://cs.twitch.tv/ogssupernova/b/349347081 Go to 1:37.. edit: Sure, there are lots of "but, but, but the protoss didn't do this, or this".. But you get the basic idea, how it looks like when someone good messes with mech TvP. This style has become my standard TvP in beta, except I incorporate more starport tech so I can harass with banshees and drop hellions. Beaten plenty of GM protoss players with it. I rarely even use ghosts, banshees and widow mines are my go-to units for removing immortal shields. As long as widow mine assaults remain as powerful as they are, I see no reason why this composition couldn't be viable against protoss. But hey, maybe one of you theorycrafters could spell it out for me. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 20 2012 00:25 Bagi wrote: This style has become my standard TvP in beta, except I incorporate more starport tech so I can harass with banshees and drop hellions. Beaten plenty of GM protoss players with it. I rarely even use ghosts, banshees and widow mines are my go-to units for removing immortal shields. As long as widow mine assaults remain as powerful as they are, I see no reason why this composition couldn't be viable against protoss. But hey, maybe one of you theorycrafters could spell it out for me. According to local theorycrafters you only play bronze players and win with mech, so I guess you lie.. lol | ||
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syroz
France249 Posts
On December 20 2012 00:34 Everlong wrote: According to local theorycrafters you only play bronze players and win with mech, so I guess you lie.. lol Supernova vs some random GM Beta guy is realy not relevent to prove Mech is viable. There is few league difference. My point is mech is fine, sometime and with some luck but far to be efficient (especially compared to bio). And way harder to play than bio or DeathTossBall. Futhermore, when it works barely , it is without tank. Not positionnal anymore, it looks like a slower bioball with more hp. Same play style. I think Mech is bad/boring in HotS especially vs Toss. It needs some changes, like a tank buff. Tanks need to be scary. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 20 2012 01:15 syroz wrote: Supernova vs some random GM Beta guy is realy not relevent to prove Mech is viable. There is few league difference. My point is mech is fine, sometime and with some luck but far to be efficient (especially compared to bio). And way harder to play than bio or DeathTossBall. Futhermore, when it works barely , it is without tank. Not positionnal anymore, it looks like a slower bioball with more hp. Same play style. I think Mech is bad/boring in HotS especially vs Toss. It needs some changes, like a tank buff. Tanks need to be scary. Well that game, Supernova did nothing I couldn't do.. He just massed 200 ball of mech units and threw it at opponent basically steamrolling him. So I gues skill level doesn't really matter he. Something like this is not possible in WoL. Of course he could play more carefully, place turrets, scan, place mines everywhere to spot enemy movement, etc.. Widow Mine gives you really a lot of options, it's only purpose is not just to defend natural and maybe mineral line in your main. The point is, that there apparently is different viable approach then just basic WoL bio in TvP. I agree, Tanks probably can't be used and you can very well say it's just bio from Factory, but it works, don't tell me it doesn't. It's shame Tanks are completely useless in every matchup (save TvT) now, true. | ||
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syroz
France249 Posts
On December 20 2012 01:39 Everlong wrote: Well that game, Supernova did nothing I couldn't do.. He just massed 200 ball of mech units and threw it at opponent basically steamrolling him. So I gues skill level doesn't really matter he. Something like this is not possible in WoL. Of course he could play more carefully, place turrets, scan, place mines everywhere to spot enemy movement, etc.. Widow Mine gives you really a lot of options, it's only purpose is not just to defend natural and maybe mineral line in your main. The point is, that there apparently is different viable approach then just basic WoL bio in TvP. I agree, Tanks probably can't be used and you can very well say it's just bio from Factory, but it works, don't tell me it doesn't. It's shame Tanks are completely useless in every matchup (save TvT) now, true. You underestimate spernova's macro  It tried these kind of pushes because i liked playing mech in WoL, it doesnt work well with me. But i faceroll protoss with bioball. Thats not theorycraft, thats how i experiment the game (at my humble level). I have to try tanks unsiege with a good hellbat ball to tank (with medic and ghost) yet. I am sure its good :D | ||
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Hider
Denmark9404 Posts
On December 19 2012 23:40 Everlong wrote: I see, you are this kind of person you just don't argue with.. I will save my and your time and let games speak for itself. You haven't read his post? Look at what he actually wrote instead of what you think he wrote. Its just one sentence. Also there is no need to argue. Read some of the previous posts in this thread and then you might learn a thing or three. Right now your just someone who doesn't know what your talking about, and sees one game where something you mistakenly call mech "works": | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 20 2012 01:53 syroz wrote: You underestimate spernova's macro It tried these kind of pushes because i liked playing mech in WoL, it doesnt work well with me. But i faceroll protoss with bioball. Thats not theorycraft, thats how i experiment the game (at my humble level). I have to try tanks unsiege with a good hellbat ball to tank (with medic and ghost) yet. I am sure its good :D Statistically, unsieged tanks are better pound for pound than marauders (supply wise). Save the can't be healed/cost more gas. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
On December 20 2012 00:25 Bagi wrote: This style has become my standard TvP in beta, except I incorporate more starport tech so I can harass with banshees and drop hellions. Beaten plenty of GM protoss players with it. I rarely even use ghosts, banshees and widow mines are my go-to units for removing immortal shields. As long as widow mine assaults remain as powerful as they are, I see no reason why this composition couldn't be viable against protoss. But hey, maybe one of you theorycrafters could spell it out for me. You're not playing MECH then because you're not utilizing a BW tank in your composition. If you utilized a BW tank in your composition then it would be MECH but since you're playing a different game and can't make the BW tank, you're not really playing MECH. Are we clear? j/k. In all seriousness, we need to wait and see what the Code S level Terran players can do with HoTS once they've logged a few months playing it. Will a factory heavy composition work against Protoss? I'd be willing to bet a fair amount that it will. All of the masters and GMs in EU and NA could claim some composition is unviable or terrible but I have to reserve judgment until the top tier pros play. For a long period of time basically all pros thought Protoss had the best late game in WOL against Z; despite how resolutely everyone believed it, it turned out to be entirely offbase because only a few EU and NA pros seemed to understand how good the infestor was. It takes a long time to really figure out a composition and it's not going to get figured out until top tier pros start to play around with it. Perhaps they'll figure out a role for the tank; maybe they won't; time will tell. I don't really care whether the tank ultimately gets incorporates into factory based play in TvP. I really just want to see more than one viable army composition because that makes games more interesting. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On December 20 2012 02:13 Thieving Magpie wrote: Statistically, unsieged tanks are better pound for pound than marauders (supply wise). Save the can't be healed/cost more gas. They also lack concussive shell and the ability the kite. In other words, they suck. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 20 2012 00:25 Bagi wrote: This style has become my standard TvP in beta, except I incorporate more starport tech so I can harass with banshees and drop hellions. Beaten plenty of GM protoss players with it. I rarely even use ghosts, banshees and widow mines are my go-to units for removing immortal shields. As long as widow mine assaults remain as powerful as they are, I see no reason why this composition couldn't be viable against protoss. But hey, maybe one of you theorycrafters could spell it out for me. GM means nothing in HotS. Literally nothing. I got GM because I won 2 games in a row after Balance Patch 9. I'm low Masters. GM is meaningless now, anyone can get it if they played after the Balance Patch 9, even a bronze player. But yes, this style is, I think most people agree at least, it's the best style. Thor/Hellbat/Widow Mine +maybe Ghosts or Banshees. Basically it's better than anything else because you don't make Tanks lol. I would love to say Supernova's game proved Mech was viable and this style is completely solid. But the truth is that the Protoss Supernova was playing took an expansion at 11:30, which I think everyone agrees is absolutely unnecessary against Mech. At least 2 minutes too late. On top of that, if we just look at Supernova's opening, it's not safe. Now he operates on a good assumption, that if you see a Robo you probably won't see Blink play because most P would just use the MSC in HotS. But classic Blink+Obs would have straight up killed him, and he never confirmed the Protoss had a natural until way after it would have hit. I won't even argue the huge point that this is Supernova, 9 time Code S player, so who he is playing is probably not as good as him. If someone wants to upload a game of MechvsP, proving it is good/viable/solid, we shouldn't be able to pick out such blatant mistakes like expanding 2+ minutes too late. And Supernova should have a build that is safe and solid, and doesn't rely on assumptions (no offense at all intended to Supernova, it was a safe assumption!). One of the biggest complaints about MechvsP is that doing an opening that puts you in a position to react to a 1 base all in in time after you scout it, puts you too far behind against a Protoss who doesn't 1 base all in, this VOD doesn't show us how to solve that problem. Not to mention if anyone has played with this composition, Thor/Hellbat/Widow Mine/(Ghost/Banshee), knows that Blink Stalker pressure is the hardest thing to deal with, so it's too bad this VOD doesn't show us Supernova dealing with that either. Sea beat Genius and Naniwa with Mech in WoL - it doesn't mean the games he played showed a solid style of Mech. EDIT: Bagi, if you do want to upload replays of this style working though, in a solid fasion, I would LOVE to see them. I am not here to disprove Mech being viable! | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On December 19 2012 07:11 Dvriel wrote: My Friend,I am still waiting for your replays and asked you 2-3 days ago.Wanna see you making mech work on big maps.Your latest replays were on Shakuras and Ohana.No maps like this in HotS. I write you I wnat see you go for mech on Howling Peaks,Star Station,Antiga Cross Positions,Korhal City and Daybrek.Got no replays of all this,so please try to post them.I dont need you to be GM,only Diamond is Ok for me,as for now,me being Platinum T,cant beat P even in Silver if go mech... From your old WoL replays from August to November You got ONLY 10 TvP wins and replays.As we can see you go BIO sometimes vs P.Still think only 10 games in 3 months is not Mech=VIABLE,dont you think? My apologize,you got ONE victory going mech on Daybreak.As I can see you got 5 Thors,5 banshees,10 Hellions,2 ravens,5 ghosts and gues what??? 2!!!! TANKS!!! WTF? This is how your mech works?thank you,but "YOUR MECH" will never be considered real mech with 2 tanks and they even were unsieged....so lame + Show Spoiler + Well, actually i didnt post my last replay pack from wol (so 1 or 2 months of game). And i didn't post HOTS pack because i still want to refine my builds. And i'll start streaming in a few days, if you're that interested in my play About that "only 10 TvP wins" , first of all, you're lying. in the latest replay pack, (which is basically late october-early november), there is 9 TvP wins. Are you going to say there is only 1 TvP win from august to november? Do i need to check all my pack? Also, even if it was true, your logic is bad. If it was 10 wins out of 1000 try, it wouldnt be viable, actually, it's only 10 wins, because i stopped to save every won game, and i'm playing way less than before due to lack of motivation (TvZ balanced yo) and work. Also i got tons of zergs and very few P. I played bio a bit because i don't want to fall too much behind about standard builds, especially since i have to play boX for clanwars for example, and i don't want to be too "obvious".. I got 2 tanks. Great. What is the ennemy composition? What is the timing where you saw that army? Actually i go for 4 thors before starting tanks production, and i delay it if i see there is no point building tanks (like mass chargelots/archon). You actually use ONE replay that is only proving that... i'm adapting my composition. Oh and, that i'm not stupidly building tanks when they aren't needed So please guy, watch again my packs, watch again my replays, and stop being that agressive. And stop lying On December 19 2012 07:26 Vindicare605 wrote: You play a Ghost Mech style, I've read your guide a while ago and I've used it and it works so far pretty well in WoL at countering most of the blind a-move stuff that Protoss can do. However, HOTS is not WoL and your style is actually much weaker in TvP in HOTS and I wish you had a beta key so you could see what I'm talking about. Your style works vs Protoss ground forces but doesn't work vs the new options Protoss now has in the air. Your early pushes to deny thirds are weaker because of the Mothership Core. Your Battlecruiser transition is absolute fodder to Tempests because of their 80 damage per massive shot from 15 range (seriously Tempests vs Battlecruiser is actually hilariously one sided). Void Rays are a lot more effective vs not just Siege Tanks but also Vikings in HoTS. Please read my previous long post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375338¤tpage=42#830 As I've said in that post, if it was one hard counter unit or one tech path that we had to worry about Mech wouldn't be in such a bad place, but the fact is even if we are totally prepared to handle one of the tech paths available that can crush a mech army, we can't be prepared for the other one because of how exclusive the counters to Immortals vs Air Units are. That Protoss has the ability to tech switch much faster than Terran can only compounds the problem. Protoss has access to options against Mech that it doesn't have access to in WoL thanks to the Tempest and Void Ray. So while the options for Protoss fighting Mech has actually INCREASED, Mech has only the widow Mine as a new tool vs Protoss tech options and it doesn't really have the supply efficiency needed to fill that role. As I've said in other posts, Protoss in HOTS now has TWO siege breaker units as well as access to the Mothership Core which DRASTICALLY reduces the effectiveness of early mech pushes. The presence of Oracles allows for more effective air harassment in the early and midgame if the Protoss player chooses to use it and the Void Ray and Tempest are threats from the Air that are as powerful as Carriers (nearly) in WoL yet are available much earlier and are effective in fewer numbers. I respect you Lynna and your play your guide has helped me in more than a few games but I'm afraid when it comes to HOTS it is outdated. Ghosts are not the catch all answer they are in WoL because Ghosts while still incredibly useful vs everything Protoss has on the ground do not do anything to counter the new threats facing Mech from the Air. + Show Spoiler + Actually, i have a HOTS beta key, and in fact i announced a few days ago to my team mates that i basically stop playing WOL to totally focus on HOTS Well, my main point when i talk about my style in WOL isn't "it's gonna work in HOTS too". The point i want to bring is : "people kept saying mech was impossible to play in WoL, and still, after months of work, i was able to get a really good mech strategy allowing me, with adaptations, to fight anything the protoss can do without any risk of auto-loss because i'm not playing bio, and i don't see why i couldnt do the same thing in HOTS". I'm just using my experience to say that people saying it's "impossible to mech" are just lazy idiots who just can't use their brains to play any non-mainstream strategy (again, special mention to people whining about immortals, both in WoL and in HoTS). Actually, my style's adaptations to HOTS are : -Immortals or air? can't counter both at once before lategame and 5 bases, i agree. But well, i'm going to use the same thing that in WoL : Massive amount of scans, and game sense. By using a highly cost effective army, and always being defensive except when i'm 100% sure i'm going to do insane damage, i can get a tons of minerals really early, and tons of macro CCs really early, so i can keep scanning his bases and army to see if something is going wrong. I also think HOTS is better than WOL about this : in WOL, missing for example 2 stargates producing carriers (not a that big investment if the protoss rush a good amount of bases and is trying to look agressive with his army, to force you using your stuff in defense) would just instantly kill you. No BCs, No ravens (and WoL ravens were pointless versus only few carriers), (with my style) no vikings, and thors being awful. in HOTS, you can defend kinda well with ravens/thors/turrets, because you can directly hit carriers and do tons of damage -The new void ray : Well, i agree it's going to be hard to deal with, but i can't tell too much about this. didn't play that uch about VR and the answer to them can change a lot depending of the situation (mass VR with HT and tempests lategame isn't going to have the same answer than a few VR added to a standard army midgame). I think my main reaction to this is that now, i'm going to add an early 2nd starport, with a reactor, and get vikings to prevent this. -Tempests : Well, actually, using ravens, i didn't have any big problems about tempests, even in great number. PDD deny their damage for tons of time, and with good army movements, you can get thors shots/HSM/Yamato on them. They're "annoying" but imo, they aren't that good in a direct fight (the first time and only time i lost to mass tempests, my 4 thors with 2 PDD, some auto turrets and a few scv repairing were able to take 4 out of 12 down before dying... And i basically didnt scout it at all. With like 8 thors, 10 vikings and 4 ravens i would have held easily, and destroyed him because his ground army was basically For the moment my main adaptation to HOTS is that i basically forget BCs, and instead get more ravens, vikings, and thors. Hellbat allows me to hold the ground without BCs even lategame On December 19 2012 07:39 Everlong wrote: Well, now that Avilo has given up on Mech TvP, I think we need to find another flag ship.. :D Go get some good quality stream, replays and lots of free time.. :D + Show Spoiler + This week end, stream . . . :D On December 19 2012 09:36 DemigodcelpH wrote: If people are honestly suggesting Thor/Raven/Viking/Ghost then it's further proving prior points about the tank simply not being a real threat. One again, for the sake of mech being actually viable and for the health of this game as an esport, I submit that someone should do a formal writeup on the tank before beta ends. The issue is Lyyna that you got so used to playing mech that outplaying people became normal for you. You're simply just a good player making a bad-subpar strategy work, and a lot of the time you don't even go pure mech. Of course that's my personal opinion, and solely from my analysis of your replays, but I submit that you're not doing anything special with mech other than being better than the other guy, and you may be 100% unable to realize this similar to a physical trainer wearing a weighted vest for a week and actually feeling awkward when it's removed. As such all prior points still stand. Yes we can always improve, but how is this relevant to 50% of the Terran race being nearly nonviable? Having to improve more than the other guy to reach the same spot isn't exactly fair. It's not that we're a pessimistic bunch and we can't see the bright side; we've done our share of extensive testing, theory-crafting, and want this to succeed as much as the next person. However perhaps when even people like Idra are saying mech is bad then the sky might actually be falling. Food for thought. + Show Spoiler + Well, when i come to army vs army clash, outplaying isn't the question. a composition as bad as people say mech is would still lose. Also, saying i'm outplaying everyone, with my very passive style since a year is a bit unrealistic ^^ | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
On December 20 2012 01:39 Everlong wrote: Well that game, Supernova did nothing I couldn't do.. He just massed 200 ball of mech units and threw it at opponent basically steamrolling him. So I gues skill level doesn't really matter he. Something like this is not possible in WoL. Of course he could play more carefully, place turrets, scan, place mines everywhere to spot enemy movement, etc.. Widow Mine gives you really a lot of options, it's only purpose is not just to defend natural and maybe mineral line in your main. The point is, that there apparently is different viable approach then just basic WoL bio in TvP. I agree, Tanks probably can't be used and you can very well say it's just bio from Factory, but it works, don't tell me it doesn't. It's shame Tanks are completely useless in every matchup (save TvT) now, true. That video is so unrepresentative of what it's actually like. The toss had barely any ground army as he was shoving a lot of supply into tempests that were not built yet. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 20 2012 03:08 Insoleet wrote: If TvP mech works only when massing Thors and not playing positionnal with tanks... Well, its a bad mech play to watch. Well in HotS you also get to mass up Hellions or Widow Mines and zoom around the map with them in no time. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On December 20 2012 02:26 Bagi wrote: They also lack concussive shell and the ability the kite. In other words, they suck. longer range (6 vs 7 (13)), 40% faster attack speed (1.5 vs 1.1) , AoE... difficult to replace (slow build time), gas intensive, needs factories (rax is cheaper)... Both need tech lab, both can't shoot up, both can be repaired, both are anti armor (tanks are better vs both armored and non-armored), etc... They have a lot of give and take and its not as black and white as it seems. Although I'll agree that playing Bio with tank shaped marauders is not what I would call "mech play" | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
With a new OP things could be a bit more clear. Perhaps more focused on the tank which still has yet to be addressed. | ||
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