EPThttp://de.twitch.tv/avilo/b/348622971?t=58m
TvP Mech still not viable? - Page 43
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Aquila-
516 Posts
http://de.twitch.tv/avilo/b/348622971?t=58m | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:49 Bodzilla wrote: Everyone's so defeatist. personally i like to do it this way. How i do it generally is this CC first gas rax fac gas Then rush seigetanks and seigemode and between that, constant SCV, Marine, a bunker and seige tanks you can defend yourself form just about anything they throw at you. Take your third and forth gas but dont put extra SCV's on it till you you can get another CC then saturate all gas's. bank 400 gas and throw down another 3 fac's (2 tech 2 reactor) then get double armory. Stop building supply depots and just use call down mules, (you want to have income form your easiest to defend base's for as long as possible) Switch into widowmine thor, building hellions when your low on gas andwith your extra mins just start adding orbitals and scanning everywhere constantly. When 2/2 is finish's start to push using some hellbats, widow mines then thors with your 5-6 seigetanks as support, scanning constantly to eliminate all observers so your mines are safe. Take a 4th, throw down 4 starports and a fusion core, start your air upgrades and switch into BC's in the ultra late game. It's fun as fuck. I'm not going to say i have the golden key's to Mech, but the replay i saw that everyone was whinging about made no use of any of the things that have changed in HOTS. Play the game and stop whinging and you may find some answers. Do you have some replays ? | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:11 Aquila- wrote: Watch this vod about TvP mech from like 58min - 1h 5min and you will never mech again. Disgusting. http://de.twitch.tv/avilo/b/348622971?t=58m Assuming reasonable intelligence I think even someone who has never played SC2 in his life could understand that isn't fair. The toss had 0/0/0 upgrades to 1/2 for terran, both players were even in supply, this was a highly highly HIGHLY defensive position, and was the first engagement of the game. Perhaps we have to start asking ourselves does Blizzard have a hidden agenda? Note that the toss didn't use any functionality added in HotS, so it's not like "the beta is in flux and things happen" but that it's been like that even in the relatively highly mature WoL, and this video doesn't even address the other excellent point by Vindicare concerning toss air forcing vikings thus automatically winning the game. I mean assuming reasonable intelligence from Blizzard (they're all college graduates I imagine) then I can't think of any explanation for this besides a hidden agenda. Of course it's open to discussion as always. Maybe I'm missing something invisible. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9404 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:56 DemigodcelpH wrote: Assuming reasonable intelligence I think even someone who has never played SC2 in his life could understand that isn't fair. The toss had 0/0/0 upgrades to 1/2 for terran, both players were even in supply, this was a highly highly HIGHLY defensive position, and was the first engagement of the game. Perhaps we have to start asking ourselves does Blizzard have a hidden agenda? Note that the toss didn't use any functionality added in HotS, so it's not like "the beta is in flux and things happen" but that it's been like that even in the relatively highly mature WoL, and this video doesn't even address the other excellent point by Vindicare concerning toss air forcing vikings thus automatically winning the game. I mean assuming reasonable intelligence (they're all college graduates) then I can't think of any explanation for this besides a hidden agenda. Well that game made it clear that we can't open heavy hellion pressure, and can't tech to to quickly. Avilo simply had battle units to defend. Obviously this is a balance flaw (because pushes like that should never work), but I still think that push could be held by a different opening | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:11 Aquila- wrote: Watch this vod about TvP mech from like 58min - 1h 5min and you will never mech again. Disgusting. http://de.twitch.tv/avilo/b/348622971?t=58m that was so disgusting, my head exploded | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:00 Hider wrote: Well that game made it clear that we can't open heavy hellion pressure, and can't tech to to quickly. Avilo simply had battle units to defend. Obviously this is a balance flaw (because pushes like that should never work), but I still think that push could be held by a different opening The toss was actually on higher tech overall considering he rushed DTs and then went into immortal/warp prism/archon, so no the Terran didn't tech too quickly, and supply was even. The only reasonable alternative there was to simply be a significantly better player than the Protoss. | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:00 Hider wrote: Well that game made it clear that we can't open heavy hellion pressure, and can't tech to to quickly. Avilo simply had battle units to defend. Obviously this is a balance flaw (because pushes like that should never work), but I still think that push could be held by a different opening What opening then? If you're pretty sure you must have some idea of what opening could hold this? Keep in mind your opening needs to be safe and solid at other timings as well, and still be economically/tech oriented enough to handle a Protoss who macro's and plays really economically/tech heavy, and has to be robust enough to deal with hidden Stargate(s). The only Mech play I have any faith in really is one that uses little to no Sieged Tanks. Like Thor/Hellbat/Widow Mine might have some potential, though Blink Stalkers kind of just beat it. HTOMario has been opening 3rax bio with stim push and then transitioning into Mech - it looks pretty interesting. Keeps you safe from blink all ins and such. Not sure if someone could hard-counter it if they knew it was coming or not. But something drastic has to change, IMO, for Mech vs Protoss to work. Maybe it's an entirely new style, maybe it's a balance change. I still don't think we will ever see a pro player use it as a solid style, Bio is just better in every respect. Even at turtling... | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:15 Everlong wrote: Removing larva inject, warp gate, reactor, chronoboost and mule is sensible and easy solution? :D Why dont you argue your point instead of just trying to be funny (just as in your other post I quoted above). I have given my reasoning - actually part of the reasons for removing them - why they should be removed and BW proved that the game works without these mechanics while giving exciting games, so its kind of a fact that they arent necessary at all IMO ... Your turn. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:11 Aquila- wrote: Watch this vod about TvP mech from like 58min - 1h 5min and you will never mech again. Disgusting. http://de.twitch.tv/avilo/b/348622971?t=58m Tanks are a joke, we knew that. The question is why the Hell is Blizzard not doing anything about it? Is Dustin jealous that the Siege Tank is a superior concept then any tanks he has ever made in C&C or something? | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:38 Sapphire.lux wrote: Tanks are a joke, we knew that. The question is why the Hell is Blizzard not doing anything about it? Is Dustin jealous that the Siege Tank is a superior concept then any tanks he has ever made in C&C or something? With the Viper, i think blizz will be able to buff the tanks. I dont know if people understand that tank was nerfed because of zerg being too weak against it. And with vipers, its not the case anymore :D | ||
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SolidZeal
United States393 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:00 Hider wrote: Well that game made it clear that we can't open heavy hellion pressure, and can't tech to to quickly. Avilo simply had battle units to defend. Obviously this is a balance flaw (because pushes like that should never work), but I still think that push could be held by a different opening Yeah...no, both of you are wrong. I mean, you at least admit that he teched too quickly, but that push worked for several reasons. Just count the units for 1 thing, the protoss army was so much bigger than Avilo's. It turns out, that you can't rush for tech, upgrades and expansions all at once and expect to hold a focused timing attack, who knew? They may have been equal in supply, but avilo was probably 30 workers ahead, which is great, when the enemy isn't at your front door, with the perfect comp to kick your ass. Not having a hole in his wall also might have helped. Hidden agenda? Right, blizzards hidden agenda is that players lose when they make poor decisions in game. Avilo was playing cute, taking huge risks and the protoss didn't give him time for them to pay off, simple as that. Not that it matters too much, Avilo pretty much lost as soon as the game started. "Mech sucks, I'm going to lose if I go mech" Then mysteriously, he loses. If you go into any sort of competition with that mindset, then you'll find yourself losing. IMO this thread has become ridiculous. I understand that you guys want to play a certain style and for it to be more competitive, but you're going about in bad ways. It feels more like a damn pity party in this thread, than anything constructive or helpful in anyway. A lot of the posts are self defeating and theory crafting, based on ideas of a game, that won't really be concrete until it come out and pros play with it. It may be a good thing for blizzard to buff tanks, but I'm not sure, because the tanks is not stuck in a mech vacuum. A buffed tank might cause other balance issues. | ||
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iS.Axslav
United States248 Posts
2 thors + 4 tanks + 7 hellions + 6 marines + raven = 2300 minerals + 1100 gas 23 zealots + 6 archons + 4 immortals + 4 stalkers + sentry + mothership core = 4700 minerals + 1550 gas (think he made archons from dts not sure) | ||
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:43 SolidZeal wrote: Yeah...no, both of you are wrong. I mean, you at least admit that he teched too quickly, but that push worked for several reasons. Just count the units for 1 thing, the protoss army was so much bigger than Avilo's. It turns out, that you can't rush for tech, upgrades and expansions all at once and expect to hold a focused timing attack, who knew? They may have been equal in supply, but avilo was probably 30 workers ahead, which is great, when the enemy isn't at your front door, with the perfect comp to kick your ass. Not having a hole in his wall also might have helped. Hidden agenda? Right, blizzards hidden agenda is that players lose when they make poor decisions in game. Avilo was playing cute, taking huge risks and the protoss didn't give him time for them to pay off, simple as that. Not that it matters too much, Avilo pretty much lost as soon as the game started. "Mech sucks, I'm going to lose if I go mech" Then mysteriously, he loses. If you go into any sort of competition with that mindset, then you'll find yourself losing. IMO this thread has become ridiculous. I understand that you guys want to play a certain style and for it to be more competitive, but you're going about in bad ways. It feels more like a damn pity party in this thread, than anything constructive or helpful in anyway. A lot of the posts are self defeating and theory crafting, based on ideas of a game, that won't really be concrete until it come out and pros play with it. It may be a good thing for blizzard to buff tanks, but I'm not sure, because the tanks is not stuck in a mech vacuum. A buffed tank might cause other balance issues. A weak tank causes balance issues right now. Tanks are really weak for 3 supply. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:43 SolidZeal wrote: Yeah...no, both of you are wrong. I mean, you at least admit that he teched too quickly, but that push worked for several reasons. Just count the units for 1 thing, the protoss army was so much bigger than Avilo's. It turns out, that you can't rush for tech, upgrades and expansions all at once and expect to hold a focused timing attack, who knew? They may have been equal in supply, but avilo was probably 30 workers ahead, which is great, when the enemy isn't at your front door, with the perfect comp to kick your ass. Not having a hole in his wall also might have helped. Hidden agenda? Right, blizzards hidden agenda is that players lose when they make poor decisions in game. Avilo was playing cute, taking huge risks and the protoss didn't give him time for them to pay off, simple as that. Not that it matters too much, Avilo pretty much lost as soon as the game started. "Mech sucks, I'm going to lose if I go mech" Then mysteriously, he loses. If you go into any sort of competition with that mindset, then you'll find yourself losing. It may be a good thing for blizzard to buff tanks, but I'm not sure, because the tanks is not stuck in a mech vacuum. A buffed tank might cause other balance issues. The Protoss player teched harder than Avilo did considering he rushed DTs and failed and then went into immortal/warp prism/archon, and was on 0/0/0 while he was on 1/2. Additionally a "focused timing attack" does not hit at 16 minutes while spending most of his chrono on probes all game; it was a normal engagement by all means, and yet he broke a highly highly highly defended position after failing a DT rush with no engagements prior and came out significantly ahead. Avilo made no poor decisions other than playing mech and not being significantly better than his opponent. The Protoss player also made no particularly good decisions considering he didn't even micro the engagement (when the camera is zoomed in during the replay we can establish it was an a-move in that the Protoss army was attacking the SCVs and depots, and not focus tiring any tanks or thors) besides being matched against a Terran mech opponent. On December 19 2012 02:07 iS.Axslav wrote: if he wasn't so far behind he would have held that without a problem. On December 19 2012 03:03 Bagi wrote: Meh, that was only a case of the protoss having way more stuff. Avilo had invested a ton into an expansion, runbys, a pretty useless raven, upgrades, extra production, yet barely had any standing army. Protoss had everything invested in that one army. Avilo was playing the long game and got caught at the worst possible time. It happens in every match-up, you get too greedy with tech and your opponent just rolls over you with a superior army. Had he played a little safer and held that push, he would've had a huge lead. Not quite true. That would army analysis would apply if it was a mirror matchup, but it's not. It's more fair to say it was relatively even, as the supply was even. A Terran mech player has to invest in the most expensive infrastructure in the game (looking at 800/525 for the 3 factories/starport + add-ons) , and cannot chrono units, so it's natural for the other player to have more stuff. You're calculations also assume that it's a standard army vs army situation and don't factor that he attacked into narrow choke with a full supply depot wall + bunker + cliff tanks + full scv pull (all while having 0/0/0 units). This extremely defensive situation substantially inflates the raw "army value" in the engagement, and considering these variables there's no way a player should come out significantly ahead by a-moving. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
It happens in every match-up, you get too greedy with tech and your opponent just rolls over you with a superior army. Had he played a little safer and held that push, he would've had a huge lead. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:11 Aquila- wrote: Watch this vod about TvP mech from like 58min - 1h 5min and you will never mech again. Disgusting. http://de.twitch.tv/avilo/b/348622971?t=58m please stop posting this game from that whiner. The army cost for the protoss is twice as much.. Yes you can beat through a fortified terran then if the armies aren't too big yet... | ||
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UPro-BW
81 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:12 Markwerf wrote: please stop posting this game from that whiner. The army cost for the protoss is twice as much.. Yes you can beat through a fortified terran then if the armies aren't too big yet... that would never ever ever ever happen in BW. even if the protoss was 40 supply ahead. 1aing up a ramp into fortified terran position with tanks already in siege mode is fucking ridiculous. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:32 UPro-BW wrote: that would never ever ever ever happen in BW. even if the protoss was 40 supply ahead. 1aing up a ramp into fortified terran position with tanks already in siege mode is fucking ridiculous. Just so i know, how did protoss beat mech in BW ? Wasnt it OP ? :p | ||
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Dvriel
607 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:40 Insoleet wrote: Just so i know, how did protoss beat mech in BW ? Wasnt it OP ? :p P beat BW mech with speedzealots,,dragoons,arbiter with stasis and harass with reaver,HTs and DTs and if not,they went to air=Carriers + arbiter recall | ||
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starimk
106 Posts
Just so i know, how did protoss beat mech in BW ? Wasnt it OP ? In BW, protoss had a variety of options when facing mech. They could force the terran to turtle by denying expansions. They could stage a flank attack and engage from multiple angles. They could use shuttles to conduct zealot bombs. They could use Arbiters to place tanks in stasis, or Corsairs to disable the tanks with Disruption Web. None of these options involved A-moving directly into a fortified siege line, which is what we saw in Avilo's game. In BW mech never had to worry about Immortals or Protoss air, except perhaps in the form of Arbiters and Carriers. There was more depth and strategy involved in setting up the engagements and positioning, something that is sorely missed in this incarnation of Starcraft. | ||
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