|
On December 18 2012 18:29 Sissors wrote:Well I hope that is patched, because running mines into toss armies is imo not a fun/good game mechanic, but I think your post is accurate, although you also got sentries which with good forcefields would give you an autoloss. @Shear, blink stalkers decimate siege tank play, but not for the frontal attack, because indeed massed siege tanks, maybe some widow mines between your tanks, do good against stalkers. However what if he takes 15 stalkers and blinks into your base? The only fast unit you have are hellions, which you really don't want to use against stalkers (despite that some people claim massed hellions do fine against stalkers, they don't). And even if you had 1-2 siege tanks there for defense, they simply die immediatly. So your only solutions are either base trade, or turtling up heavily. Currently I am trying the hellbat/thor combo backed up by marines, granted my win prc against toss is so low I wouldnt try most stuff I try, but still it might work without going pure bio. Maybe mix in a few siege tanks, although I dont know yet if there aditional long range dps is worth the lack of mobility. But the idea is the hellbats/thors provide a nice a-move meatshield, while the marines got their traditional role. Also directly a nice counter to toss air without having to screw around. And finally late game I take marines any day over hellions to harass, since they can actually destroy his infrastructure. Show nested quote +
Yes I know for God's sake but with Hellbats you are able to fight them now at least. In WoL, you are doomed once Charge is researched.
There you also got BFHs. And preferably you have them really in front of your army, so you can kite the chargelots in, and with a good engagement it isnt that bad. Sure hellbats are WAY better at the job, but at the same time toss also got way more toys. So in the end I rather play mech in WoL than in HotS.
Of course, but if you deny an observer getting into your base, blink play can be negated along with sensor tower you can spot it coming. I do understand that the threat of blink stalker running into your main is deadly and basically keep you contain that for sure and if they do get in, things can get nasty fast.
|
On December 18 2012 18:32 SheaR619 wrote:
Well in theory, mine dont get attack unless they burrow. Therefore if there is another unit nearby to draw target priority away from the mine, the mine can burrow and do damage without getting attack. In otherword, if you surround a protoss army with hellion and they delay long enough for mine to burrow, it can work.
Possibly, however I can see blizzard patching this out, or removing mines entirely if they are used for this purpose. As "They are not designed to be an assault unit"
|
On December 18 2012 18:33 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:32 SheaR619 wrote:
Well in theory, mine dont get attack unless they burrow. Therefore if there is another unit nearby to draw target priority away from the mine, the mine can burrow and do damage without getting attack. In otherword, if you surround a protoss army with hellion and they delay long enough for mine to burrow, it can work. Possibly, however I can see blizzard patching this out, or removing mines entirely if they are used for this purpose. As "They are not designed to be an assault unit"
Hmm I dont think so. blizzard gave mine that faster burrow upgrade along with the priority decrease almost as they want this to be used like this. There wasnt a battle report on patch 9 so I can be wrong but I think they want us to experiment them offensively.
|
On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech.
My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach.
|
On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach.
I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them.
I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy.
|
On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy.
+50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence.
|
On December 18 2012 18:33 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:29 Sissors wrote:Well I hope that is patched, because running mines into toss armies is imo not a fun/good game mechanic, but I think your post is accurate, although you also got sentries which with good forcefields would give you an autoloss. @Shear, blink stalkers decimate siege tank play, but not for the frontal attack, because indeed massed siege tanks, maybe some widow mines between your tanks, do good against stalkers. However what if he takes 15 stalkers and blinks into your base? The only fast unit you have are hellions, which you really don't want to use against stalkers (despite that some people claim massed hellions do fine against stalkers, they don't). And even if you had 1-2 siege tanks there for defense, they simply die immediatly. So your only solutions are either base trade, or turtling up heavily. Currently I am trying the hellbat/thor combo backed up by marines, granted my win prc against toss is so low I wouldnt try most stuff I try, but still it might work without going pure bio. Maybe mix in a few siege tanks, although I dont know yet if there aditional long range dps is worth the lack of mobility. But the idea is the hellbats/thors provide a nice a-move meatshield, while the marines got their traditional role. Also directly a nice counter to toss air without having to screw around. And finally late game I take marines any day over hellions to harass, since they can actually destroy his infrastructure.
Yes I know for God's sake but with Hellbats you are able to fight them now at least. In WoL, you are doomed once Charge is researched.
There you also got BFHs. And preferably you have them really in front of your army, so you can kite the chargelots in, and with a good engagement it isnt that bad. Sure hellbats are WAY better at the job, but at the same time toss also got way more toys. So in the end I rather play mech in WoL than in HotS. Of course, but if you deny an observer getting into your base, blink play can be negated along with sensor tower you can spot it coming. I do understand that the threat of blink stalker running into your main is deadly and basically keep you contain that for sure and if they do get in, things can get nasty fast.
Last WoL game against toss I got with banshees to economic advantage, although he still had at least as large army, consisting of blink stalkers. I was into fuck-fuck-fuck mode, and ringed my entire base with missile turrets, which twice shot down his observer before he could blink in (a pro would have blinked in no-problem, I am not a pro, so neither are my opponents), winning me the game.
Now same scenario, playing HotS: he gets mummy core -> gg.
|
On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence.
But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact.
|
On December 18 2012 09:15 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 06:04 StratFive wrote:From their visible actions it appears that a Siege Tank based composition vs Protoss is not something Blizzard intends to make possible  The most direct fix (changing Immortal hardened shields) would have to ensure that PvZ still has a viable way of opening Robo vs Ling Roach. I did like the suggestion of boosting main HP and lowering hardened shield HP though. Immortal hardened shields deliver a damage reduction of 6 per 0 upgraded Roach attack (37.5% damage reduction) over 10 attacks at a cooldown of 2. Siege Tanks get reduced by 40 per attack (80% damage reduction) + splash over 5 attacks (considering 1 immortal gets hit with 1 direct fire + 1 splash) at a cooldown of 3 (50% slower then the roach), this buys Protoss an enormous amount of time to come in range of the tanks and annihilate them with a large number of Immortals remaining. The ideal balance point would be to allow Protoss players to use Immortals to soak enough Siege fire to come in range of the Terran Mech army, but not enough that there are many (if any) Immortals remaining. A simple change such as 50 shield reduction but say 80 HP increase (50 + 30(6*5 for increased damage from roaches)) means the Immortal gets to still feel like a beefy unit including against Roaches, but reduces the number of direct Siege fire shots + 1 splash to 3, before beginning to eat the full 50 damage from Siege fire vs armored + splash damage. The increased HP would ensure the Immortals can still eat 2 extra direct shots, but the Splash should allow tanks to do more damage overall. Fascinating idea. This one change is so simple but would help tvp mech a ton without effecting other matchups by much. Have you considered how this might effect immortals vs collosi, ultras? Those are the only two units I can think of that might be seriously effected by this change. Also, I agree with the guy pointing out how roach range buff set off a chain reaction of making other units worse.
Typically in PvP the player with Collosi kites the opposing Protoss army so they don't come in range of the Immortals. In a head on fight the modified Immortal would only mitigate 5 collosi attacks on the shields, but the extra HP would help the modified Immortal survive more, in fact this change would Buff the Immortal against units with small but fast attacks slightly, as the extra HP is more useful then hardened shields, such as against Zealots.
Vs Ultras again it depends how the battle is engaged, if the Protoss player gets zealots in front then the Ultra's won't directly engage the Immortals and they'll rain their high DPS upon them. If lings engage then the Immortal is slightly buffed, and if the Ultra/Immortal do engage directly then the 1 to 1 battle will be similar as the extra HP buys the Immortal over 2 extra shots from the Ultra.
Even if we factored Ghosts in, in some ways this is a buff as Immortals would survive 2 extra direct shots from tanks, if the Protoss player manages to engage in a wide spread the Immortals while getting EMP'd they now have a better chance of closing more distance, and if the Protoss player decides to not engage after getting EMP'd, it will take a shorter time to recharge their now smaller shields.
This would be a pretty safe experiment to do in a beta I think compared to the radical changes of patch 8.
tl;dr: Increase Immortal HP by 80, decrease Shields by 50 = less of a hard counter vs siege fire while keeping the Immortal fairly balanced in all matchups.
|
On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact.
See post above for explanation.
|
On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation.
Well, seems worth a try. I am of the opinion that the sticking point is how many shots it takes the Tank to bust through the shields - their firing period is so slow that cutting this amount in half or less is going to be key, I think. Because of how the Stalkers and Zealots tend to be in front of the army and Mech doesn't have anything else save the Thor which shoots at all far (and a Thor is not easily microed) it's quite difficult to hit it with anything besides tank shots.
|
On December 18 2012 18:54 Infernal Knight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation. Well, seems worth a try. I am of the opinion that the sticking point is how many shots it takes the Tank to bust through the shields - their firing period is so slow that cutting this amount in half or less is going to be key, I think. Because of how the Stalkers and Zealots tend to be in front of the army and Mech doesn't have anything else save the Thor which shoots at all far (and a Thor is not easily microed) it's quite difficult to hit it with anything besides tank shots.
Yeah, this is quite obvious. I agree. I've been experimenting with Ravens, because you need 15 Tank shots to kill Immortal, or you could use 1 HSM from Raven. Then you have 15 Tank shots spread across whole Protoss army and oh boy it is a difference. The main issue of course here is accumulating Raven energy and not die while doing so, but once you have nice army composed of Hellbats/Thors/Tanks + 4-5 Ravens, it's actually insane, how big difference it makes, when you erase 5 Immortals at the start of battle. It's just crazy, I suggest you to try it yourself.
|
On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation.
Archon would still be pretty good imo and air will still crush mech.Way to many weaknesses, it would require so much fix to the overall game just to then "maybe" make mech work. I dont really know how blizzard going to accomplish this.
|
On December 18 2012 19:11 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation. Archon would still be pretty good imo and air will still crush mech.Way to many weaknesses, it would require so much fix to the overall game just to then "maybe" make mech work. I dont really know how blizzard going to accomplish this.
I would take Immortal nerf while leaving all other weakness of mech as is instantly. There needs to be some weakness. Protoss air should be counter to mech. But why the hell would any Protoss try air switch, when all they can do is mass Zealot/Immortal/Archon and 1a through everything?
|
On December 18 2012 18:33 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 18:32 SheaR619 wrote:
Well in theory, mine dont get attack unless they burrow. Therefore if there is another unit nearby to draw target priority away from the mine, the mine can burrow and do damage without getting attack. In otherword, if you surround a protoss army with hellion and they delay long enough for mine to burrow, it can work. Possibly, however I can see blizzard patching this out, or removing mines entirely if they are used for this purpose. As "They are not designed to be an assault unit"
They are an assault unit. That's why they were given the new 1s upgrade.
They are completely useless defensively, and unless they are free, they cannot be useful.
Basically you have some army like 8tank/8viking 25 hell 25 mines. The tank/viking poke at protoss position/colo, the hellions sit on top of the tanks. All mines are unburrowed. When P finally engages, mines run along the flank to the immortals/stalkers and burrow in chunks.
Think of it as vultures surrounding goons with mines.
|
On December 18 2012 19:16 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 19:11 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation. Archon would still be pretty good imo and air will still crush mech.Way to many weaknesses, it would require so much fix to the overall game just to then "maybe" make mech work. I dont really know how blizzard going to accomplish this. I would take Immortal nerf while leaving all other weakness of mech as is instantly. There needs to be some weakness. Protoss air should be counter to mech. But why the hell would any Protoss try air switch, when all they can do is mass Zealot/Immortal/Archon and 1a through everything?
cause as it stands, carriers are insanely powerful combine with a few tempest just to be annoying. Put in some HT and you will never lose. Microable carriers is soooooo much stronger it is insane.
|
On December 18 2012 19:22 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 19:16 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 19:11 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation. Archon would still be pretty good imo and air will still crush mech.Way to many weaknesses, it would require so much fix to the overall game just to then "maybe" make mech work. I dont really know how blizzard going to accomplish this. I would take Immortal nerf while leaving all other weakness of mech as is instantly. There needs to be some weakness. Protoss air should be counter to mech. But why the hell would any Protoss try air switch, when all they can do is mass Zealot/Immortal/Archon and 1a through everything? cause as it stands, carriers are insanely powerful combine with a few tempest just to be annoying. Put in some HT and you will never lose. Microable carriers is soooooo much stronger it is insane.
Yeah, sure, but if you are able to get to critical mass of carrier/tempest/ht, I'm going to have raven/viking/thor/ghost, so let's get the party started. But we are really not talking about this here. It's commone knowladge, that you can hide air switch and kill Terran with it. It's up tso Terran to watch this out and in case this happens, then jut go kill Protoss, it's absolutely doable, The new Thor is good against small number of heavy air.
|
On December 18 2012 19:27 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 19:22 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 19:16 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 19:11 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:19 architecture wrote:
Did about 2hours of testing with mech. Going to dispel some misconceptions.
1. Here's the BIG one. Mines are NOT defensive. If you burrow them defensively, you will only detonate on zeals, and you will be fucked, since the rest of your army does not handle nonzeals effectively. What you do with mines is NOT to burrow them, but to rush them in when P engages, and RUN past the zeals, and burrow them against stalkers/immo/colo.
2. To expand on this, mines are REALLY REALLY BAD preburrowed. They will detonate against zeals, splash your hellions and trade poorly. Mines are to trade against stalkers, and any other expensive units if possible/lucky. If they detonate on zeals, you will lose the fight.
3. Mass tanks are NOT the way to go against Protoss. You only want a handful, 2-6, to siege a position and force an engagement. Think of them as Tempests v Z.
4. Same deal with vikings, you want a handful to shoot colo, maybe air, but really what they do is abuse range/space. The truly cost effective unit is, you guessed it, the mine, which doesn't have range.
TLDR:
Mines = speedlings, run them and surround/burrow against Protoss tech units. All of mech is now: how well can you get your mines to trade against Protoss tech. My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation. Archon would still be pretty good imo and air will still crush mech.Way to many weaknesses, it would require so much fix to the overall game just to then "maybe" make mech work. I dont really know how blizzard going to accomplish this. I would take Immortal nerf while leaving all other weakness of mech as is instantly. There needs to be some weakness. Protoss air should be counter to mech. But why the hell would any Protoss try air switch, when all they can do is mass Zealot/Immortal/Archon and 1a through everything? cause as it stands, carriers are insanely powerful combine with a few tempest just to be annoying. Put in some HT and you will never lose. Microable carriers is soooooo much stronger it is insane. Yeah, sure, but if you are able to get to critical mass of carrier/tempest/ht, I'm going to have raven/viking/thor/ghost, so let's get the party started. But we are really not talking about this here. It's commone knowladge, that you can hide air switch and kill Terran with it. It's up tso Terran to watch this out and in case this happens, then jut go kill Protoss, it's absolutely doable, The new Thor is good against small number of heavy air.
Hmmm have you face the new carriers? They are sooooo much stronger. Being able to attack while moving, they can kite viking into stalkers and combine that was storm it insane. Raven also dont really do much either considering they drain PDD fast. Also thor dont do anything either because once again, carriers will be kiting them and they will never be able to do anything.
Even if you are able to spot the air tech, you dealing with it is much much harder but I have yet to see many protoss do this since they generally just go the usually immortal, archon, zealot. But in the 3-5 game that has happen to me out of my ton of mech game, it incredibly difficult. I am not sure if it is even feasible to attempt to challenge the protoss air composition without marines.
|
On December 18 2012 19:39 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 19:27 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 19:22 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 19:16 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 19:11 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:35 Everlong wrote:
[quote]
My experience is nearly the same. I don't like it. 3 sec burrow makes for some crazy offensive possibilities.. Widow Mine in it's current state fail to fulfill its defensive role and it's used more like gimmicky do or die hit and run abusive unit. They need to try different approach. I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them. I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy. +50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation. Archon would still be pretty good imo and air will still crush mech.Way to many weaknesses, it would require so much fix to the overall game just to then "maybe" make mech work. I dont really know how blizzard going to accomplish this. I would take Immortal nerf while leaving all other weakness of mech as is instantly. There needs to be some weakness. Protoss air should be counter to mech. But why the hell would any Protoss try air switch, when all they can do is mass Zealot/Immortal/Archon and 1a through everything? cause as it stands, carriers are insanely powerful combine with a few tempest just to be annoying. Put in some HT and you will never lose. Microable carriers is soooooo much stronger it is insane. Yeah, sure, but if you are able to get to critical mass of carrier/tempest/ht, I'm going to have raven/viking/thor/ghost, so let's get the party started. But we are really not talking about this here. It's commone knowladge, that you can hide air switch and kill Terran with it. It's up tso Terran to watch this out and in case this happens, then jut go kill Protoss, it's absolutely doable, The new Thor is good against small number of heavy air. Hmmm have you face the new carriers? They are sooooo much stronger. Being able to attack while moving, they can kite viking into stalkers and combine that was storm it insane. Raven also dont really do much either considering they drain PDD fast. Also thor dont do anything either because once again, carriers will be kiting them and they will never be able to do anything. Even if you are able to spot the air tech, you dealing with it is much much harder but I have yet to see many protoss do this since they generally just go the usually immortal, archon, zealot. But in the 3-5 game that has happen to me out of my ton of mech game, it incredibly difficult. I am not sure if it is even feasible to attempt to challenge the protoss air composition.
I'm sorry, but I have the same question for you, have you seen the new Carriers in action? Because they are NOT stopped by PDD.. What this means is that you can use like 2-3 PDDs to stop Tempests and it is really enough due to how slowly they fire. The rest of energy can go into HSM and sniping Carriers. It takes 2 HSM to snipe both Carrier/Tempest.. 1 HSM is more than enough, because you have Vikings/Thors to finish them off..
|
On December 18 2012 19:46 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 19:39 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 19:27 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 19:22 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 19:16 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 19:11 SheaR619 wrote:On December 18 2012 18:51 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:45 Infernal Knight wrote:On December 18 2012 18:43 Everlong wrote:On December 18 2012 18:42 Infernal Knight wrote:
[quote]
I believe someone posted somewhere, either earlier on this thread, another mech thread, or in the B.net forums, that mines do their job just fine against Zerg and Terran both. Again it's Protoss that seems to have far too much anti-mech capability, as if they were built from the ground up to counter the style that used to be used against them.
I do suspect the Immortal is going to eventually have to be nerfed somehow. I've had an idea on how to do it myself that minimizes the impact in every other matchup, but it takes more than a sentence or two to explain. That said, I really don't think that "Tank shells now do more damage against shields" is a solution they'd ever implement - even though EMP for example is primarily used against Protoss, it can be applied against both of the other races in some capacity. Something that has no effect against any other race, literally no effect at all, seems against their design philosophy.
+50 HP, -50 Shields.. 1 Sentence. But that still has an impact on Immortal vs. Roach and Immortal vs. Stalker matchups - the idea, I think, is to absolutely minimize the collateral impact. See post above for explanation. Archon would still be pretty good imo and air will still crush mech.Way to many weaknesses, it would require so much fix to the overall game just to then "maybe" make mech work. I dont really know how blizzard going to accomplish this. I would take Immortal nerf while leaving all other weakness of mech as is instantly. There needs to be some weakness. Protoss air should be counter to mech. But why the hell would any Protoss try air switch, when all they can do is mass Zealot/Immortal/Archon and 1a through everything? cause as it stands, carriers are insanely powerful combine with a few tempest just to be annoying. Put in some HT and you will never lose. Microable carriers is soooooo much stronger it is insane. Yeah, sure, but if you are able to get to critical mass of carrier/tempest/ht, I'm going to have raven/viking/thor/ghost, so let's get the party started. But we are really not talking about this here. It's commone knowladge, that you can hide air switch and kill Terran with it. It's up tso Terran to watch this out and in case this happens, then jut go kill Protoss, it's absolutely doable, The new Thor is good against small number of heavy air. Hmmm have you face the new carriers? They are sooooo much stronger. Being able to attack while moving, they can kite viking into stalkers and combine that was storm it insane. Raven also dont really do much either considering they drain PDD fast. Also thor dont do anything either because once again, carriers will be kiting them and they will never be able to do anything. Even if you are able to spot the air tech, you dealing with it is much much harder but I have yet to see many protoss do this since they generally just go the usually immortal, archon, zealot. But in the 3-5 game that has happen to me out of my ton of mech game, it incredibly difficult. I am not sure if it is even feasible to attempt to challenge the protoss air composition. I'm sorry, but I have the same question for you, have you seen the new Carriers in action? Because they are NOT stopped by PDD.. What this means is that you can use like 2-3 PDDs to stop Tempests and it is really enough due to how slowly they fire. The rest of energy can go into HSM and sniping Carriers. It takes 2 HSM to snipe both Carrier/Tempest.. 1 HSM is more than enough, because you have Vikings/Thors to finish them off..
Wait PDD doesnt stop carrier interceptor fire? I though it does, anyways it must of been too chaotic to see. I know in WoL they didnt but I though it was changed. I understand that raven are really good against tempest. Although I am not convince that HSM is good against carriers. Because once you move out of the 9 range, the HSM will disengage and falls down. Carriers has a range of 8, and interceptor has a range of 14 that they can kite with. I dont believe you can easily HSM carriers. Therefore raven must get very close to carriers this leave them vulnerable to feed back and storm and carriers attack and stalkers.
Even if you are able to successful kill them, a remax protoss army will run you over. I believe in WoL currently, 3 viking beat 1 carriers. This means that a carriers basically pays for itself in term of cost. With the introduction of carriers micro, it actually makes carriers cost efficient against viking. Which means you better have a damn good amount of ravens otherwise you will lose.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
