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On October 09 2012 01:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 00:55 sCCrooked wrote:On October 09 2012 00:29 Jermstuddog wrote:
I guess I was being a little harsh. The vast majority of people in the Starcraft community tend to undervalue the Marine.
There is a reason why it makes up 50% of all Terran armies all the time. It's not because people think it's cool. When a unit like the marine stands out like this, it tells me one of two things: -That unit's potential when managed correctly is just too damn good -All the other units in the game's potential when managed correctly doesn't give a comparable benefit for paying close attention to micro. Well, the marine has a lot of micro possibilities, but it could be dumbed down to and easier to handle while staying the same powerlevel, if there was any use in it. (which I'm strictly against) But the marine must be a strong unit, if we want biotech as it has been designed to be viable. Terran can't switch fast into the "perfect counterunit", so the universal unit has to be a good choice against everything that the specialized marauder/reaper/ghost cannot deal with, while providing reasonable support in all scenarios in which the opponent switches quickly.
That is the exact kind of thinking that has made SC2 Terran so lame.
There was no "perfect counterunit" in BW. Marines weren't even usable in 2 out of 3 match-ups for the Terran player and eventually lose their purpose even vs Zerg as high-tier abilities hit the field.
Insisting that this one, low-tier unit be "a reasonable support in all scenarios" has lead to Marines countering their counters and being generally one of the strongest units in the game.
Both Thors and Ghosts could reasonably fill the same generalist role that Marines occupy, but rather than fix issues and tweak numbers as needed, Blizzard has nerfed both units into the ground and forced Terran back to heavy Marine play. This does not make for solid balance.
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I think moving hydra speed to lair tech and giving them a small but important HP buff could work wonders. I also think hosts should require a hydra den rather than infestation pit, as currently the infestation pit is the overwhelmingly dominant tech choice at Lair -- spire and hydra den are in need of viability, and this would help.
Does that sound reasonable or OP?
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On October 09 2012 01:28 IPA wrote:
I think moving hydra speed to lair tech and giving them a small but important HP buff could work wonders. I also think hosts should require a hydra den rather than infestation pit, as currently the infestation pit is the overwhelmingly dominant tech choice at Lair -- spire and hydra den are in need of viability, and this would help.
Does that sound reasonable or OP? It sounds good to me.
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On October 09 2012 01:20 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 01:08 Big J wrote:On October 09 2012 00:55 sCCrooked wrote:On October 09 2012 00:29 Jermstuddog wrote:
I guess I was being a little harsh. The vast majority of people in the Starcraft community tend to undervalue the Marine.
There is a reason why it makes up 50% of all Terran armies all the time. It's not because people think it's cool. When a unit like the marine stands out like this, it tells me one of two things: -That unit's potential when managed correctly is just too damn good -All the other units in the game's potential when managed correctly doesn't give a comparable benefit for paying close attention to micro. Well, the marine has a lot of micro possibilities, but it could be dumbed down to and easier to handle while staying the same powerlevel, if there was any use in it. (which I'm strictly against) But the marine must be a strong unit, if we want biotech as it has been designed to be viable. Terran can't switch fast into the "perfect counterunit", so the universal unit has to be a good choice against everything that the specialized marauder/reaper/ghost cannot deal with, while providing reasonable support in all scenarios in which the opponent switches quickly. That is the exact kind of thinking that has made SC2 Terran so lame. There was no "perfect counterunit" in BW. Marines weren't even usable in 2 out of 3 match-ups for the Terran player and eventually lose their purpose even vs Zerg as high-tier abilities hit the field. Insisting that this one, low-tier unit be "a reasonable support in all scenarios" has lead to Marines countering their counters and being generally one of the strongest units in the game. Both Thors and Ghosts could reasonably fill the same generalist role that Marines occupy, but rather than fix issues and tweak as needed, Blizzard has nerfed both units into the ground and forced Terran back to heavy Marine play. This does not make for solid balance.
Of course there were perfect counterunits in BW. However due to the control/pathing/AI/whatever features, it didn't matter as much if you were strategically wrong, as long as you played tactically right. Or in other words, balance wasn't as tight in BW.
However, the uselessness of the bio-path in 2/3 MUs was one of BWs biggest flaws and I really like that they try to overcome that in SC2.
In SC2 Thors do fill the marines role in Mech play. Only when you go for a biobased strategy, you need marines. (aka MMM, 5:1 bio:mech play) It's a pity that mechplay doesn't work besides bioplay in TvP (but they try to fix it).
But yeah, they could rebalance/design bio completly and make it so, that bio is viable on its own but without the marine as core unit, but I think that boat has sailed, since blizzard decided to keep the marine as a unit.
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you can set up a very powerful siege attack in mid-game with roach ling swarm host, and if i ever get the money to do, i will trickle in hydras (in which ZvP i think it is necessary to counter 2-3 base turtle air builds). It is super strong, and it is useful in all three matchups nowadays (thanks Terran for going mech). It could also be because i am bad, or my opponents are bad, but lately I have been beating GM players as a plat account.
I definitely see hydras getting more used atm, and I do hope that they rebalance the game and switch hydras to tier 1 because I feel roach battles are annoying and boring right now. Lower the hydra cost and damage to get early anti-air for zerg is never a bad thing imo.
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I say move the speed upgrade up and give them the extra hp as an upgrade, terran has several upgrades for bio, shield, stim, concussive.this would make it viable but hinder lightning fast powerful tech switches because it cost time and resources to use them effectively
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50 gas for a unit that does the same dps than a stimmed marine says it all. A unit destroyed by Blizzard and forced into a niche roll in the game
Hard countered by most Terran units
2 minute shelf life vs Protoss
Out preform by Roaches in ZvZ
Blizzard should be looking at this unit for this expansion. Either less gas, more hit points. Its a dead end tech unit that's not worth building.
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On October 09 2012 01:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 01:20 Jermstuddog wrote:On October 09 2012 01:08 Big J wrote:On October 09 2012 00:55 sCCrooked wrote:On October 09 2012 00:29 Jermstuddog wrote:
I guess I was being a little harsh. The vast majority of people in the Starcraft community tend to undervalue the Marine.
There is a reason why it makes up 50% of all Terran armies all the time. It's not because people think it's cool. When a unit like the marine stands out like this, it tells me one of two things: -That unit's potential when managed correctly is just too damn good -All the other units in the game's potential when managed correctly doesn't give a comparable benefit for paying close attention to micro. Well, the marine has a lot of micro possibilities, but it could be dumbed down to and easier to handle while staying the same powerlevel, if there was any use in it. (which I'm strictly against) But the marine must be a strong unit, if we want biotech as it has been designed to be viable. Terran can't switch fast into the "perfect counterunit", so the universal unit has to be a good choice against everything that the specialized marauder/reaper/ghost cannot deal with, while providing reasonable support in all scenarios in which the opponent switches quickly. That is the exact kind of thinking that has made SC2 Terran so lame. There was no "perfect counterunit" in BW. Marines weren't even usable in 2 out of 3 match-ups for the Terran player and eventually lose their purpose even vs Zerg as high-tier abilities hit the field. Insisting that this one, low-tier unit be "a reasonable support in all scenarios" has lead to Marines countering their counters and being generally one of the strongest units in the game. Both Thors and Ghosts could reasonably fill the same generalist role that Marines occupy, but rather than fix issues and tweak as needed, Blizzard has nerfed both units into the ground and forced Terran back to heavy Marine play. This does not make for solid balance. Of course there were perfect counterunits in BW. However due to the control/pathing/AI/whatever features, it didn't matter as much if you were strategically wrong, as long as you played tactically right. Or in other words, balance wasn't as tight in BW. However, the uselessness of the bio-path in 2/3 MUs was one of BWs biggest flaws and I really like that they try to overcome that in SC2. In SC2 Thors do fill the marines role in Mech play. Only when you go for a biobased strategy, you need marines. (aka MMM, 5:1 bio:mech play) It's a pity that mechplay doesn't work besides bioplay in TvP (but they try to fix it). But yeah, they could rebalance/design bio completly and make it so, that bio is viable on its own but without the marine as core unit, but I think that boat has sailed, since blizzard decided to keep the marine as a unit.
You're either ignoring the point or just don't get it.
Marines aren't A unit, they are THE unit. Back in BW, the unit every Terran wanted to make was the Siege Tank. It was fucking awesome and came with several major flaws that added depth and interest to any Terran Match up. Siege Tanks couldn't shoot up. Siege Tanks had a minimum range. Siege Tanks dealt huge amounts of friendly fire if the opponent could close the distance. Whether you supported Siege Tanks with Marines or Vultures really didn't matter. The major determining factor there was that Vultures were fucking awesome and Marines were just... there...
You're trying to turn my argument into a case where the Marine needs to be removed completely. No, that's not the case... The Marine just needs to be toned down to the levels of a standard T1 unit. As I've said, -5 HP would do the trick. It's so simple, I don't see how it hasn't been implemented yet. They would be just as good in bunkers and drops, but they wouldn't laugh in the face of Archons and Banelings. And once you move Terran away from Marines, you open up a whole world of possibilities. Colossus don't need to be so strong anymore because Protoss can deal with Marauders already. Once you reduce the power of the Colossus, you can also nerf fungal. The whole bullshit mountain falls down upon itself once the foundation of the untouchable Marine gets pulled out.
Am I the only one who thinks that having the first unit Terran makes being the best unit Terran makes might be an issue? That maybe one should be trying to climb their tech tree to get better units, not just support their base units? That races should get stronger, not weaker as the game goes on?
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I really don't understand why they can't just try out the upgrade at lair tech for a patch or two and verify that it breaks or doesn't break balance. Also, I think I like the idea of swarm hosts being tied to hydra den, IF they buff the hydra a bit (by moving speed to lair, or something else like increasing survivability), otherwise we might not ever see hydras OR swarm hosts.
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I read a few comments and the OP and was thinking about it while working today.
There are 2 ways the Hydra could be changed. In both ways the Speed Upgrade should be moved to Lair and the Swarm Host should be moved to the Den. My thought behind this is, the Speed Upgrade is just to late to make the Hydra as usefull as it should be to be a viable option and if the Swarm Host is moved to the Den it just makes the Hydra Den way more attractive because the Infestation Pit is important enough without the Host anyways.
So the first solution would be to just buff it's health, so it doesn't die when an enemy unit glances at it. And well that seemd like the obvious solution at first thought. But it will just turn it into another 1a unit, so i think buffing the health is not ideal. It would probably work, but it would be boring. Just like another design for the roach.
The second solution is the one i would like to see. Give the Hydra more Range (maybe turn the Speed upgrade into a Speed and Range upgrade), and more Damage. Then fix it's attack animation so it is possible to micro the Hydra and it would be possible to kite and micro the Hydra. If more Dmg would be OP change it so one shoot does more Dmg but it shoots slower (like someone else mentiones too).
If you can catch units that are out of postition (with the higher Range, Speed, maybe dmg and ofc a proper attack animation) and get out before you lose all of them, the Hydra would be usefull again. And the additional Range would improve it's usefullness in big battles.
Someone else can work out the numbers, but the idea behind it seems reasonable imho.
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On October 09 2012 02:28 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2012 01:36 Big J wrote:On October 09 2012 01:20 Jermstuddog wrote:On October 09 2012 01:08 Big J wrote:On October 09 2012 00:55 sCCrooked wrote:On October 09 2012 00:29 Jermstuddog wrote:
I guess I was being a little harsh. The vast majority of people in the Starcraft community tend to undervalue the Marine.
There is a reason why it makes up 50% of all Terran armies all the time. It's not because people think it's cool. When a unit like the marine stands out like this, it tells me one of two things: -That unit's potential when managed correctly is just too damn good -All the other units in the game's potential when managed correctly doesn't give a comparable benefit for paying close attention to micro. Well, the marine has a lot of micro possibilities, but it could be dumbed down to and easier to handle while staying the same powerlevel, if there was any use in it. (which I'm strictly against) But the marine must be a strong unit, if we want biotech as it has been designed to be viable. Terran can't switch fast into the "perfect counterunit", so the universal unit has to be a good choice against everything that the specialized marauder/reaper/ghost cannot deal with, while providing reasonable support in all scenarios in which the opponent switches quickly. That is the exact kind of thinking that has made SC2 Terran so lame. There was no "perfect counterunit" in BW. Marines weren't even usable in 2 out of 3 match-ups for the Terran player and eventually lose their purpose even vs Zerg as high-tier abilities hit the field. Insisting that this one, low-tier unit be "a reasonable support in all scenarios" has lead to Marines countering their counters and being generally one of the strongest units in the game. Both Thors and Ghosts could reasonably fill the same generalist role that Marines occupy, but rather than fix issues and tweak as needed, Blizzard has nerfed both units into the ground and forced Terran back to heavy Marine play. This does not make for solid balance. Of course there were perfect counterunits in BW. However due to the control/pathing/AI/whatever features, it didn't matter as much if you were strategically wrong, as long as you played tactically right. Or in other words, balance wasn't as tight in BW. However, the uselessness of the bio-path in 2/3 MUs was one of BWs biggest flaws and I really like that they try to overcome that in SC2. In SC2 Thors do fill the marines role in Mech play. Only when you go for a biobased strategy, you need marines. (aka MMM, 5:1 bio:mech play) It's a pity that mechplay doesn't work besides bioplay in TvP (but they try to fix it). But yeah, they could rebalance/design bio completly and make it so, that bio is viable on its own but without the marine as core unit, but I think that boat has sailed, since blizzard decided to keep the marine as a unit. You're either ignoring the point or just don't get it. Marines aren't A unit, they are THE unit. Back in BW, the unit every Terran wanted to make was the Siege Tank. It was fucking awesome and came with several major flaws that added depth and interest to any Terran Match up. Siege Tanks couldn't shoot up. Siege Tanks had a minimum range. Siege Tanks dealt huge amounts of friendly fire if the opponent could close the distance. Whether you supported Siege Tanks with Marines or really didn't matter. The major determining factor there was that Vultures were fucking awesome and Marines were just... there... You're trying to turn my argument into a case where the Marine needs to be removed completely. No, that's not the case... The Marine just needs to be toned down to the levels of a standard T1 unit. As I've said, -5 HP would do the trick. It's so simple, I don't see how it hasn't been implemented yet. They would be just as good in bunkers and drops, but they wouldn't laugh in the face of Archons and Banelings. And once you move Terran away from Marines, you open up a whole world of possibilities. Colossus don't need to be so strong anymore because Protoss can deal with Marauders already. Once you reduce the power of the Colossus, you can also nerf fungal. The whole bullshit mountain falls down upon itself once the foundation of the untouchable Marine gets pulled out. Am I the only one who has a problem with the thought of having the first unit Terran makes being the best unit Terran makes?
Marines aren't the unit. Marines are the unit if you go bio and siege tanks are the unit if you go mech.
And no, the marine would not have to be removed completly. But if it's roles were to be cut, bio wouldn't be playable. If its roles were to be given to other biounits, at some point in a game it would just be stupid to make marines, which is just bad design. Units are there to fill strategic roles throughout a game, not to let you survive until you have the "awesome" techs. Especially if the unit needs a lot of specialized costs/time (barracks, stim, shields, addons, bio upgrades) to shine, like the marine.
Also, I think you overvalue the arbitrary "Tier" terms/roles. A unit should be allowed to be a core unit, even if it is said to be "T1". The reverse being the case for a lot of early game units in SC2 is one of the reasons why we see those deathballs. That's also the whole point of the hydralisk discussion. Hydras (or better roach/hydra) should be allowed to be a core unit (composition), that you don't need to switch out of at some point, just because they are not burrowed in the deepest corner of the techtree.
Whether -5HP would be reasonable or not and what would change, I don't know. Right now I don't see why there is the need to nerf bioplay, apart from "marines perform too good on their own", which I don't think is a good reason.
And yes, I also think that the marine is one of the 2 best units in the game (Infestor being the other one). Yet the last thing this game needs is another unit that you cannot use past X minutes (that's not what you're saying. That's just what I fear, when nerfs are applied to freely everytime a unit performs well).
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The problem is that the Hydra is a T2 unit that is extremely powerful vs. T1-T2 units and dies horribly against T3 or siege.
The reason hydras are frequently used in ZvZ is that it's a highly aggressive matchup where it's difficult to get all the way to BLs. Once BLs are out, Hydras get eaten.
On the other hand, ZvT and ZvP have relatively short windows of T2 vs T2 and quickly transition into T3 play. For example, early Hydras are great at countering 8-minute protoss timings, but the moment either Storm or extended-range Colossi enter play Hydras become 100% useless. Hydras are even worse off in ZvT because they require Roaches to succeed and roaches are fairly bad in ZvT.
It would be hard to remedy these problems without drastically changing the role of a Hydra. The Brood War hydra was really only a "core unit" against Protoss, against terrans they mainly existed to morph into Lurkers, and ZvZ was largely lings and mutas. Changing the Hydra to be less overpowered against gateway units and more useful in a tier-3 deathball would require making it a totally different unit.
As far as speed goes: at 2.81 speed, the current speedhydra cannot out-run stimmed marine/rauder or even stalkers. Therefore they remain a poor hit-and-run unit. Back in last year's blizzcon build speedhydras had 3.375 speed which is the same speed as stimmed bio, and capable of outrunning stalkers easily. Problem is, even with 3.375 speed Zergs already have overwhelmingly superior forms of harassment: Speedlings, Mutas, Baneling drops, burrowed infestors are all overwhelmingly more cost-effective than Hydras. At 50 gas per hydra they cost almost as much as harassing with Infestors or Mutas, but are much less mobile than Mutas and much less lethal than Infestors.
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Hydra is never going to be a proper option in non ZvZ.
The role of the hydra is supposed to be DPS / anti air. But roaches are better for cost, and queendralisks are good enough anti air until mutas or corruptors or infestors come out.
So there is no need for them and likely never will be.
If hydras ever receive a buff that makes them viable, it will mean that they have become more powerful than the alternatives..(which is a very scary thought)
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It's too bad the hydras don't have a special ability or spell of some sort -- maybe a poison dart that drains HP or a spider web to entangle enemy units.
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On October 09 2012 05:41 Piousflea wrote:
The problem is that the Hydra is a T2 unit that is extremely powerful vs. T1-T2 units and dies horribly against T3 or siege.
Hydralisks are only powerful vs. Protoss T1-T2 units. They get utterly crushed by low-mid tier units of both Terran and Zerg.
As for Hydralisk ideas, I wrote a thread containing my thoughts a while back.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4496519915
It basically says that the Hydralisk should attack slower but have more damage and get +2 damage per upgrade, making it better in the late game.
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On October 09 2012 02:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
You're either ignoring the point or just don't get it.
Marines aren't A unit, they are THE unit. Back in BW, the unit every Terran wanted to make was the Siege Tank. It was fucking awesome and came with several major flaws that added depth and interest to any Terran Match up. Siege Tanks couldn't shoot up. Siege Tanks had a minimum range. Siege Tanks dealt huge amounts of friendly fire if the opponent could close the distance. Whether you supported Siege Tanks with Marines or Vultures really didn't matter. The major determining factor there was that Vultures were fucking awesome and Marines were just... there...
You're trying to turn my argument into a case where the Marine needs to be removed completely. No, that's not the case... The Marine just needs to be toned down to the levels of a standard T1 unit. As I've said, -5 HP would do the trick. It's so simple, I don't see how it hasn't been implemented yet. They would be just as good in bunkers and drops, but they wouldn't laugh in the face of Archons and Banelings. And once you move Terran away from Marines, you open up a whole world of possibilities. Colossus don't need to be so strong anymore because Protoss can deal with Marauders already. Once you reduce the power of the Colossus, you can also nerf fungal. The whole bullshit mountain falls down upon itself once the foundation of the untouchable Marine gets pulled out.
Am I the only one who thinks that having the first unit Terran makes being the best unit Terran makes might be an issue? That maybe one should be trying to climb their tech tree to get better units, not just support their base units? That races should get stronger, not weaker as the game goes on?
No, you are not the only one. I can hypothesize so many different scenarios how this game could have developed had Blizzard been more flexible when it comes to marines. Marines are THE balance breaker of SC2 since its release and the unit that stifled the Terran race. Blizzard's obsession with marines is perplexing and a little tweak in the early stage of SC2 would have changed the dynamics of the game so much (in the direction of more variety)
I differ with the fix you've suggested though. It doesn't seem like -5 HP would have solved marine problem because that doesn't change how marines are played. (+5 HP, for that matter) I would have made marine shots as missiles instead of instant. (add bonus damages per shot if it turns out necessary)
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On October 08 2012 08:11 DrunkenHomer wrote:
Imo they should move speed upgrade to lair tech and change Swarm host to require hydra tech, because speed upgrade at hive tech is pointless and infestation pit is allready good enough with giving access to infestors and hive tech
I agree with this. I'd even say make the swarm host evolve from the hydra like the Lurker used to and it would be even better.
I think that's something that zerg could really do better. Having more units evolve from other units. It would increase the viability of nearly everything. If you start off with an army of hydras and then the enemy starts making collossi, why not morph some of the leftover hydras into swarm hosts to slow the coll's down a bit. By making them relatively time consuming and expensive you create the need to make hydras in general, and force more interesting play to evolve.
I worry hydras are going to be used even less after the xpak. They're still only viable extremely situationally, and for each of those situations you'd almost always prefer infestors.
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It also has a lot to do with the current meta. Hydras are supposed to be the good GtA of Zerg and supplementary ground DPS.
For GtA, there aren't many air threats that Spore/Queen can't handle in the midgame. Then, once lategame rolls around, Broodlord/Corruptor/Infestor is already full in gear. Corruptors are too attractive of an option right now because they're Pre-BL and don't really ever lose air fights when supported by Infestors. So aside from nerfing Infestors, how do you get a race to rely on GtA for air control? Well, you have to make them weak to the opponent's AtA. That's how it works with Stalker/Colossus; Protoss relies on Stalkers for air control because they can't fight Corruptors directly. Corruptors need a unit they can't fight directly. Only issue, of course, is that air dominance is how you counter Colossi/Broodlords and defend your own Broodlords. If Hydras got a range buff they would be able to snipe Colossi, Broodlords, and Vikings more easily.
For supp DPS, the issues have already been outlined that they're still negated by Forcefields. They also don't contribute as well as they should synergistically to the army, but if they're buffed with too much DPS, they would just be spammed. This reminds me of the old Immortal, back when it couldn't reach anything behind the army, so they buffed the range slightly and now it has a considerable DPS contribution to most fights because it can be the supplemtnary DPS it's supposed to be.
TL:DR: Range buff, but the the unit would only see use in PvZ if Protoss got a real air unit for once.
Also going to reiterate that Hydralisk Den needs to be less of a dead tech route. And Dark Shrine too, especially given the cheapening of cloaked units in HotS.
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I personally think the problem lies with the Infestor. Infestors can shut down air play just like the hydra can, but can also provide a lot, making the Hydra pretty much pointless, when going Infestors is just a more natural tech path for getting to hive. Maybe if the infestors anti-air capabilities were taken away, i.e Fungal couldn't root, or hit air units, then I think the Hydra would have a better place in the army.
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Putting the viper on the hydra den would give you an interesting choice between casters, and if the Hive required either infestation pit or den, it would give you a two choice route to endgame, mobility or siege.
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EPT
