EPTWell, the speed upgrade was nerfed. Previously it was a 2.25 > 3.375 speed upgrade, it got reduced to half the effect AFAIK. Nobody really noticed.
Oh i didn't know that, it's possibly gets to 3.0, having same speed as Roach of creep.
Hydra in WOL=Hydra in HOTS - Page 8
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ejozl
Denmark3487 Posts
Oh i didn't know that, it's possibly gets to 3.0, having same speed as Roach of creep. | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
On October 10 2012 17:21 ejozl wrote: Oh i didn't know that, it's possibly gets to 3.0, having same speed as Roach of creep. I'd like Blizzard to try buffing the Hydras speed upgrade, try making them truly insane fast, that would be really cool, and I don't think anyone would actually be afraid that it would make them overpowered. | ||
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Ramiz1989
12124 Posts
On October 10 2012 17:21 ejozl wrote: Oh i didn't know that, it's possibly gets to 3.0, having same speed as Roach of creep. Nope, they get 2.81, same speed that Warhound got. The speed upgrade was 50% in the Alpha, now it is 25%, it is solid speed even with 25%, but not quite enough to make them viable. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On October 08 2012 12:58 Plexa wrote: Yes the hydra is an iconic unit, but does that mean it is 'broken' because it isn't like it was in BW? As I said above, the hydra is an excellent support unit that now has more staying power in ZvP because of Vipers/Speed. I don't know if I would say broken... but I do think that it as a 1f hatch tech unit would fill a gap in the zerg arsenal. I think it would appease a lot more ppl than it would irritate and it would be good for the race, even if you have to change balance quite a bit. | ||
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ineversmile
United States583 Posts
On October 10 2012 14:53 archon256 wrote: Infestors are stupidly powerful, sure, but just nerfing them won't make people build Hydras instead. Hydras are utterly destroyed by those aforementioned units, and it's the fact that Infestors can cast spells and run away that lets them be used. As for reducing Hydra cost, maybe. It would be a start, though. No matter how good you make Hydras, they're never going to be as practical as units which cost 0 supply, 0 minerals, and 0 gas. Something has to be done about Infested Terrans before Hydras become a core unit to Zerg armies, on a regular basis. There's certainly a question of whether or not a Hydra should be able to stand up to tanks and Colossi, because if they can do that--what counters them? I think if the speed upgrade is strong enough, then they could quickly move forward and snipe off Tanks after taking just one volley, or against Colossi they could be more spread-able due to being quicker. I don't think that's enough, though. Maybe you're right; maybe they should just be cheaper. Or having Dark Swarm would help. But even if the Viper (or any caster Zerg eventually has access to) has Dark Swarm/an equivalent to Dark Swarm, does that still make the Hydralisk worth using over Infested Terrans? Maybe if each Dark Swarm costed you 250 gas and Hydras went to 100/25, or something. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 10 2012 18:38 ineversmile wrote: It would be a start, though. No matter how good you make Hydras, they're never going to be as practical as units which cost 0 supply, 0 minerals, and 0 gas. Something has to be done about Infested Terrans before Hydras become a core unit to Zerg armies, on a regular basis. ITs costs are included in the Infestors costs. It's like saying that a marine shoots for free and therefore is overpowered. Yes, onve the Infestor has paid off and still lives, it generates "free" units. Just like a marine that has killed 2zerglings and still continues to shoot and tank damage and is a threat "for free". And it's not a start. Roaches, Corruptors, Queens and Mutas still fill like 80% of their roles, the other 20% (higher supplyefficiency vs ground than Muta/Queen/Roach; longer range) are filled by the broodlord. That's why preinfestor, people went for things like roach/corruptor. That's why the Hydralisk never returned with a stable role to the metagame. Other units like the mutalisks, the baneling, the roach, the ultralisk all went in and out of MUs metagames, because they either offer something unique or they are the best way to deal with something. Hydralisk are not. They are merely the easiest way to deal with air attacks, and even that isn't really true anymore since zergs go for 3bases, more queens and later lairs and a lot of standard builds include spores. I agree, shifting power from the infestor to the hydra is something that is needed, but just nerfing infestors just produces more noninfestor, nonhydra units. On October 10 2012 18:38 ineversmile wrote: There's certainly a question of whether or not a Hydra should be able to stand up to tanks and Colossi, because if they can do that--what counters them? That depends on the way they get changed. Right now the list of units that beat hydras cost for cost and supply for supply is too long to write down. That could even stay that way, if hydra+buffer was redesigned in a way that they work if used correctly/in the right amounts. If they would just get buffed that tanks and colossi are not superduperamazing vs them anymore, I could still give you a bunch of standard ways to beat them: Marines and Storms as hardcounters; good blink micro, good hellion buffer, HSM, FF, Marauders, Archons are all softcounters. And Tanks and Colossi would most likely still be some form of softcounter. Just not in a way that (especially) colossi work right now, where you have 2 colossus and you are safe, 3colossus and you get a bananagrin, 4-5 colossi and can let the rest of your army dance when you face something Hydrabased. Also, generally there are way too many counterrelations in the game. It's why we have those deathballs. "You wanna poke or trade? Nope I have colossi/sentries, thanks for the donation!" "You wanna move out with so little? HAHAHAHAHAAHAHA speeedlings, roaches everywhere!!!!!!" "Really, you wanna build that unit? But you know, then I can just build moooooore marines!" On October 10 2012 18:38 ineversmile wrote: I think if the speed upgrade is strong enough, then they could quickly move forward and snipe off Tanks after taking just one volley, or against Colossi they could be more spread-able due to being quicker. I don't think that's enough, though. Maybe you're right; maybe they should just be cheaper. Or having Dark Swarm would help. But even if the Viper (or any caster Zerg eventually has access to) has Dark Swarm/an equivalent to Dark Swarm, does that still make the Hydralisk worth using over Infested Terrans? Maybe if each Dark Swarm costed you 250 gas and Hydras went to 100/25, or something. I hope that the viper+speed is a good way for the hydralisk to become useful. I really do. I don't really see it right now, as anytime I come up with a new strategy in my head for those units, I feel like I can accomplish the same for less with something else. But I don't have beta access, so I can't test whether I'm right or wrong. | ||
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Roth
Germany165 Posts
I do not get it. Yes, in my opinion Fungal should not negate micro like it does now but the last thing Zerg needs is another unit that gets nerfed until it will never be used like the Hydra. Maybe the IT has the same role like the Hydra but in this case to nerf/remove the IT the Hydra has to be comparable to the IT in case of damage, lief, size and heavily decreased cost, supply. | ||
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Illiterate
Netherlands49 Posts
On October 08 2012 08:11 DrunkenHomer wrote: Imo they should move speed upgrade to lair tech and change Swarm host to require hydra tech, because speed upgrade at hive tech is pointless and infestation pit is allready good enough with giving access to infestors and hive tech Yeah and maybe make the hydras morph into the swarm hosts. And give them a direct attack instead of spawning units. Maybe AOE damage? Or in a silly shape, like... a line? Also: On October 08 2012 17:28 Velr wrote: Bring 1 food Hydras back, lower their cost, lower their DPS, lower their size.... Make them Hydras again... This. In Starcraft 2 Hydralisks don't exist, we only have Hunterkillers. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On October 10 2012 21:34 Illiterate wrote: Yeah and maybe make the hydras morph into the swarm hosts. And give them a direct attack instead of spawning units. Maybe AOE damage? Or in a silly shape, like... a line? Nonsense, nobody would ever make a unit that stupid. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
Zerg is the best of the three races to waste units and rebuild new ones. So it could be okay to have hydras in a dead-end tech tree: Once their time is over, they can be thrown away to free the supply for the swarm host or whatever other unit. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 10 2012 22:21 [F_]aths wrote: Since the roach seems to be the new tier 1.5 core unit, the hydralisk is pushed to a niche role. Zerg is the best of the three races to waste units and rebuild new ones. So it could be okay to have hydras in a dead-end tech tree: Once their time is over, they can be thrown away to free the supply for the swarm host or whatever other unit. well, if you design the game like that for zerg, zerg is only going to be about massing the best possible army as fast as possible or allinning as long as it is possible with the tech you have. Imo all units should have some decent use in the lategame. Most zerg units have to a certain degree, the problem is that neither of the ranged units has it and most of the lategame uses come down to (ab)using speed to avoid combating, which leaves very few combat unit choices (Broodlord, Corruptor, Infestor, Ultra) in WoL. We'll see how the swarm host does in the lategame and whether the viper and the metagame can shake up some "truths" about unit compositions. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On October 10 2012 22:36 Big J wrote: well, if you design the game like that for zerg, zerg is only going to be about massing the best possible army as fast as possible or allinning as long as it is possible with the tech you have. Imo all units should have some decent use in the lategame. Most zerg units have to a certain degree, the problem is that neither of the ranged units has it and most of the lategame uses come down to (ab)using speed to avoid combating, which leaves very few combat unit choices (Broodlord, Corruptor, Infestor, Ultra) in WoL. We'll see how the swarm host does in the lategame and whether the viper and the metagame can shake up some "truths" about unit compositions. In general, I agree, but there can be room for some exceptions. Starcraft does a great job to make even tier 1.0 units viable in many end game scenarios which I consider an advantage over other RTS games. But there could be a unit which has (except for some rare exceptions) only a time window of usefulness. So you have to make a decision if you build that unit but have to dump it later or if you skip that unit. The hydralisk could possibly be balanced that you don't completely all-in if you choose the hydra tech, you are just investing some resources for hitting an ee han. I could also imagine a role that hydras after that timing window the hydra just adds some dps to a roach-centered composition or light anti-air support versus phoenix harrass. | ||
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joyeaux
United States169 Posts
On October 09 2012 01:36 Big J wrote: However, the uselessness of the bio-path in 2/3 MUs was one of BWs biggest flaws and I really like that they try to overcome that in SC2. That's why BW could be so balanced: Because of that dichotomy all they had to do to balance the game was balance toss against zerg, then balance mech vs. toss and bio vs. zerg. They could do things like add charon boosters for TvP without worrying about TvZ and medics for TvZ without worrying about TvP. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 11 2012 03:15 joyeaux wrote: That's why BW could be so balanced: Because of that dichotomy all they had to do to balance the game was balance toss against zerg, then balance mech vs. toss and bio vs. zerg. They could do things like add charon boosters for TvP without worrying about TvZ and medics for TvZ without worrying about TvP. Even if you would be right - which you are not, because BW came out and was patched before anyone had a clue about how the game would be played these days - it would still be bad. I mean, if you balance this way, then you can as well just alter units stats (or which units you can build) matchup specificly (f.e. in TvZ, marine has X damage, and if you play TvP, marine has Y damage; or the barracks is simply replaced with the factory in a certain MU etc). | ||
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BoggieMan
520 Posts
EDIT: they cost double a roach right ? i am not sure about mins, but gas is double a roach. | ||
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HelloSon
United States456 Posts
On October 10 2012 13:15 Cyro wrote: Well, the speed upgrade was nerfed. Previously it was a 2.25 > 3.375 speed upgrade, it got reduced to half the effect AFAIK. Nobody really noticed. It was nerfed before the beta. IIRC, Dayvie said that the Hydra upgrade had the biggest impact during the Alpha stages. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Hydras don't heal up. Wait! Hold onto that 'wtf?' and let me explain. Obviously all zerg units DO heal themselves, constantly. But at the kind of pace an aggressive mid-game plays out at (the kind where you'd want hydra instead of turtling behind ling/infestor) that healing isn't terribly significant. It is on lings because they have very little HP to start with. It can be on roaches, provided you get the upgrades. But when hydra take damage, they're kinda stuck with it. And non-spellcasters that are stuck with the damage done to them in the mid-game fall into one of three categories: 1. Mobile harassing units (exemplified by the Mutalisk, which you never want to use in a straight fight because once they're on low health they're effectively out of the game) 2. Disposable fodder (exemplified by the Zergling and Baneling, and to an extent the 'sturdy-but-disposable' unupgraded roach) 3. Useless. Imagine Terran bio without medivac healing or Protoss without shield regeneration. They would lack the resilience that allows them to take a fight, heal up in less time than it takes their opponent to replace losses, and push forward. That's where the Hydra is in WoL. It's too expensive and brittle to be disposable fodder, and it isn't a mobile harassment unit (and isn't intended to be - Zerg has enough of those elsewhere). Which only leaves option 3. That's why the hydra stopped working properly when it was made into a 100/50/2 glass cannon. It alone of all units of all races is an expensive non-spellcaster which cannot quickly regain its strength after being used in battle. Solutions? 1. Either take the roach healing upgrade off the roach and give it to the Hydra, or put it on (say) hive and make it apply to more (all?) zerg units to some extent when burrowed. 2. Halve the hydra. 1 food, cheaper, smaller, quicker (or upgrade at lair not hive), lower health, lower DPS, more expendable. Maybe nerf roach damage. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On October 12 2012 00:41 Umpteen wrote: The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that this is why the hydra in its current form doesn't work: Hydras don't heal up. Wait! Hold onto that 'wtf?' and let me explain. Obviously all zerg units DO heal themselves, constantly. But at the kind of pace an aggressive mid-game plays out at (the kind where you'd want hydra instead of turtling behind ling/infestor) that healing isn't terribly significant. It is on lings because they have very little HP to start with. It can be on roaches, provided you get the upgrades. But when hydra take damage, they're kinda stuck with it. And non-spellcasters that are stuck with the damage done to them in the mid-game fall into one of three categories: 1. Mobile harassing units (exemplified by the Mutalisk, which you never want to use in a straight fight because once they're on low health they're effectively out of the game) 2. Disposable fodder (exemplified by the Zergling and Baneling, and to an extent the 'sturdy-but-disposable' unupgraded roach) 3. Useless. Imagine Terran bio without medivac healing or Protoss without shield regeneration. They would lack the resilience that allows them to take a fight, heal up in less time than it takes their opponent to replace losses, and push forward. That's where the Hydra is in WoL. It's too expensive and brittle to be disposable fodder, and it isn't a mobile harassment unit (and isn't intended to be - Zerg has enough of those elsewhere). Which only leaves option 3. That's why the hydra stopped working properly when it was made into a 100/50/2 glass cannon. It alone of all units of all races is an expensive non-spellcaster which cannot quickly regain its strength after being used in battle. Solutions? 1. Either take the roach healing upgrade off the roach and give it to the Hydra, or put it on (say) hive and make it apply to more (all?) zerg units to some extent when burrowed. 2. Halve the hydra. 1 food, cheaper, smaller, quicker (or upgrade at lair not hive), lower health, lower DPS, more expendable. Maybe nerf roach damage. Your point is fishing in the right area, but then you suggest moving roach regen to hive and apply to all units. As soon as you start talking Hive tech, you're not really talking mid-game armies anymore. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
 I think hive would be fine though: a fast hive in itself isn't all that expensive; it's only the hive unit cost that makes it prohibitive. Might function as a nice lair army to hive bridge in place of the infestor. | ||
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