EPTHydras just feel good when combined with swarm hosts. It's something you have to try to really appreciate (which is what I've been doing in the beta the last few weeks). The style is very different from traditional zerg where you throw away resources constantly. You can really be cost effective thanks to locusts, hydra range, and good micro which lets you bank large amounts of resources in the late game to tune your composition to whatever your opponent throws at you.
Hydra in WOL=Hydra in HOTS - Page 9
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Kambing
United States1176 Posts
Hydras just feel good when combined with swarm hosts. It's something you have to try to really appreciate (which is what I've been doing in the beta the last few weeks). The style is very different from traditional zerg where you throw away resources constantly. You can really be cost effective thanks to locusts, hydra range, and good micro which lets you bank large amounts of resources in the late game to tune your composition to whatever your opponent throws at you. | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
didn't want to create a new thread, so I'm posting it here. What if hydralisk had an anti-armored attack? There are many reasons for it: -hydralisk still doesn't feel as a round up unit with a clear niche -Zerg don't have any anti-armored attack right now -Zerg have a lot of ranged fighting units with flat attack (queen, swarm host, roach, infested terrans, hydralisks) which honestly seem to overlap So what do you think, would it be better to have an anti-armored attack with hydralisks? It could be both a soft AA version (like 10+1 + 4+0 vs. armored) and hard AA version (like 8+1 + 8+1 vs armored). I'd say both is worth testing to say the least. | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
-Change cost to 50/50. -Increase base range by 1, keep the range upgrade, maybe move it to hive tech -Add borrow healing similar to the roach To balance the stronger Hydra the spellcasters should be nerfed -Remove DPS from fungal, maybe give it a similar effect like corruption -Nerf the Viper in some way If these changes were implemented hydras would be strong units all game long. Zergs would have to use other units to protect the fragile yet very strong hydras. Spellcasters would no longer be the core, they would support the army units. Hydras especially in combination with a few infestors would be viable against mutalisks in zvz. Hydras would be far better against air units. Zerg right now has so many tanks and not one clear dps dealer that can use these tank units to do the real damage. I would really like to fill that hole with the hydra. IMHO speed alone is not enough, but i do not want to take away their defining weaknesses. It would be far more interesting to give this unit real strengths instead of fewer weaknesses. Zerg already has the tools to compensate the weaknesses of the hydras, it is just not worth it far to often because hydras are not really good at their core task. Edit: I would even go so far and remove the speed upgrade. Zerg already has enough fast units and creep to make even hydras very fast. The speed upgrade was the wrong idea in the first place. As i said earlier: A better idea would be to make them better at their core task: dealing dps while not getting shot! | ||
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Stingart
122 Posts
On January 31 2013 19:48 Ganseng wrote: Hi guys, didn't want to create a new thread, so I'm posting it here. What if hydralisk had an anti-armored attack? There are many reasons for it: -hydralisk still doesn't feel as a round up unit with a clear niche -Zerg don't have any anti-armored attack right now -Zerg have a lot of ranged fighting units with flat attack (queen, swarm host, roach, infested terrans, hydralisks) which honestly seem to overlap So what do you think, would it be better to have an anti-armored attack with hydralisks? It could be both a soft AA version (like 10+1 + 4+0 vs. armored) and hard AA version (like 8+1 + 8+1 vs armored). I'd say both is worth testing to say the least. Adressing AA is nice, but i never saw Zerg not having an AA attack as a problem or something they would need. I'd like to ask: What units from Protoss or Terran that are armored need to be by AA? Other than that, having a lot of ranged units with flat attack isn't really what is the "issue" here. It is that all these units have different uses and roles. - Queen > Macro unit. - Swarm Host > Siege unit, no air attack, spawns "free" units with barely any range. - Roach > more beefy but less DPS and no air attack. - Infested Terran > From a spell caster. If you made this from a hatchery it would be a different story. The Hydralisk is very unique on its own because of the fact that it has very high DPS range 6 with Air attack. I do not see a unit that collides with the Hydralisk making it absolete. I also do not see a reason for Zerg to get an Anti Armor unit. Why would it be helpful? Against what unit? | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I always liked that you have to weaken the Mutas, while the Zerg tries to avoid damage. Now the Zerg just has to avoid kills and that means the other races need units that can kill the Mutas. And that forces you to get those units against Mutas, because everything else just doesn't work. So no more reason to build missile towers against Mutas basically, unless you want to cover something with 5 turrets. It is not that bad, but I really dislike the direction they went with the WoL units in making them easier to use. (Voidray included) I mean the Immortal showed success in this regard (range 6 so anyone can use it right) and it got used more and more but it also created a ton of problems. For example shutting down mech pretty hard, because it became so easy to snipe siege tanks. I wish they wouldn't ruin the WoL units that were atleast a bit complicated to use so a-move didn't worked and make them stronger in the lategame with an t3,5 upgrade. (Voidrays could have gotten an upgrade at fleetbeacon that makes it easier to charge if they are massed for example, so they don't become overpowered midgame/low numbers) But right now they are refocusing Sc2 into a more macro heavy game and are adapting the units to it. I wish they would have just slowed down the game a bit, so micro becomes more rewarding. Most people want more focus on macro though so its fine. But I will just play more BW then because I prefer positional play when only macro is the way to go. As for the Hydra, the same rules apply that did in WoL with the exception of Infested Terrans not working anymore. Roach is the better Ground Hydra and Queen the better Air Hydra, so no reason to get the Hydra itself, because those 2 "hydras" are so effective in their roles that there is no reason to get hydras, except if you want to burn some gas. They are not useless, but you never want to build enough, that the opponent feels the need to deal with them. | ||
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WeRRa
378 Posts
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
On January 31 2013 21:03 Stingart wrote: Adressing AA is nice, but i never saw Zerg not having an AA attack as a problem or something they would need. I'd like to ask: What units from Protoss or Terran that are armored need to be by AA? Other than that, having a lot of ranged units with flat attack isn't really what is the "issue" here. It is that all these units have different uses and roles. - Queen > Macro unit. - Swarm Host > Siege unit, no air attack, spawns "free" units with barely any range. - Roach > more beefy but less DPS and no air attack. - Infested Terran > From a spell caster. If you made this from a hatchery it would be a different story. The Hydralisk is very unique on its own because of the fact that it has very high DPS range 6 with Air attack. I do not see a unit that collides with the Hydralisk making it absolete. I also do not see a reason for Zerg to get an Anti Armor unit. Why would it be helpful? Against what unit? well of course all the units (roach, hydra, queen, locust, infested terran) are special, but still all of them do flat ranged damage  If one of them had some special attack, it wouldn't hurt in my opinion. and hydralisk is obviously the most suitable candidate for some tweaks.as for the advantage that AA attack could give Zerg, I can think of following situations: -harass - hydra harass against buildings will be much more dangerous -firepower addition to roach/hydra combination - it will be much more powerful compared to more popular pure roach or roach/infestor combinations -kill off dropships, warp prisms, nydus warms and overlords quicker - better unit to defend against drop play -beat mass stalker/marauder groups -snipe colossus easier -beat mechanised terran force (with good concave) -beat voidrays easier (especially now when they are much more powerful, and infestors are much less powerful) -beat battlecruisers easier (especially now when they are much stronger against corruptors, and infestors are weaker) I'm not saying Zerg really need these options as a race or can't solve these tasks with other units, but it would definitely promote hydralisk play in my opinion. Which we all want don't we? | ||
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Hoon
Brazil891 Posts
On January 31 2013 20:57 submarine wrote: I would really like to see the Hydralisk as a fragile dps-backbone of the zerg army. -Change cost to 50/50. -Increase base range by 1, keep the range upgrade, maybe move it to hive tech -Add borrow healing similar to the roach To balance the stronger Hydra the spellcasters should be nerfed -Remove DPS from fungal, maybe give it a similar effect like corruption -Nerf the Viper in some way If these changes were implemented hydras would be strong units all game long. Zergs would have to use other units to protect the fragile yet very strong hydras. Spellcasters would no longer be the core, they would support the army units. Hydras especially in combination with a few infestors would be viable against mutalisks in zvz. Hydras would be far better against air units. Zerg right now has so many tanks and not one clear dps dealer that can use these tank units to do the real damage. I would really like to fill that hole with the hydra. IMHO speed alone is not enough, but i do not want to take away their defining weaknesses. It would be far more interesting to give this unit real strengths instead of fewer weaknesses. Zerg already has the tools to compensate the weaknesses of the hydras, it is just not worth it far to often because hydras are not really good at their core task. Edit: I would even go so far and remove the speed upgrade. Zerg already has enough fast units and creep to make even hydras very fast. The speed upgrade was the wrong idea in the first place. As i said earlier: A better idea would be to make them better at their core task: dealing dps while not getting shot! Zerg's Anti-armoured unit is the Zergling. Yes, it doesn't have "+x vs. Armoured", but it's its job quite well. | ||
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Ganseng
Russian Federation473 Posts
On January 31 2013 23:45 Hoon wrote: Zerg's Anti-armoured unit is the Zergling. Yes, it doesn't have "+x vs. Armoured", but it's its job quite well. i have to disagree here! most armored units have some initial points of armor, which dramatically decreases zergling's fast but weak attack. and in large numbers virtually all armored units defeat zerglings as they simly die too fast and don't punch through thick armor fast enough. you can try large numbers of marauders, stalkers, tanks, colossi, roaches, ultralisks, even thors or immortals against zerglings, and you'll see zerglings are not anti-armored whatsoever. they only beat other units if they manage to surround and overrun small groups of them, but they are equally effective against both armored and not-armored units in this position. not to speak against anti-air function of course. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On January 31 2013 23:51 Ganseng wrote: i have to disagree here! most armored units have some initial points of armor, which dramatically decreases zergling's fast but weak attack. and in large numbers virtually all armored units defeat zerglings as they simly die too fast and don't punch through thick armor fast enough. you can try large numbers of marauders, stalkers, tanks, colossi, roaches, ultralisks, even thors or immortals against zerglings, and you'll see zerglings are not anti-armored whatsoever. they only beat other units if they manage to surround and overrun small groups of them, but they are equally effective against both armored and not-armored units in this position. not to speak against anti-air function of course. It takes insanely large amounts of these armored units and/or great positioning to beat the cost efficiency of zerglings. I think for both marauders and stalkers, you have to get to about 80 supply in open engagements. For Zerg, the issue is more likely that they can't afford the larva for 160 lings or find a suitable location to engage. Otherwise, in a straight up battle, both zealots and marines do far better against zerglings than their armored brethren. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
so they should just make them 6 baserange and add a hivetech upgrade that gives them +30hp or +2 range or regen or whatever to help fight air T/P and all the AoE thats out then. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On February 01 2013 02:54 Decendos wrote: its so sad blizzard doesnt realize how much hydras suck. best thing would be to make them 1 supply 75/25 and adjust stats but its too late for that in HOTS. so they should just make them 6 baserange and add a hivetech upgrade that gives them +30hp or +2 range or regen or whatever to help fight air T/P and all the AoE thats out then. I don't think that the hydra sucks. Of course the hydra is no massable 1-A-unit. But the hydra can be used for very efficient sniping. Of course the hydra is weak versus AoE damage, but every unit has a disadvantage somewhere. | ||
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MapleLeafSirup
Germany950 Posts
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On February 01 2013 03:03 [F_]aths wrote: I don't think that the hydra sucks. Of course the hydra is no massable 1-A-unit. But the hydra can be used for very efficient sniping. Of course the hydra is weak versus AoE damage, but every unit has a disadvantage somewhere. so hydras lose to literally (this is actually true!!) to over 80 or 85% of ALL units in the whole game supplywise and are insanely bad supply and cost efficient wise and need 2 expensive and long upgrades to be viable and then AoE is out they become useless again after having a 2-4 min window...well now THATS not just "every unit has a disadvantage somewhere". i had so many OPPONENTS laugh about hydras and be sorry for them being so bad. its not like zerg players say they are weak, they suck objectively :D | ||
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