On October 08 2012 23:54 Jermstuddog wrote: Personally, I think the BW hydra has no place in SC2. It's just not needed. I have mentioned before that I would like to see a siege-hydra. Change the 150/150 range upgrade to +3 range (vs ground only if needed) instead of +1, reduce their damage to 10, make them cost 1 supply, maybe even knock their cost down to 75/50, so they are more gas-heavy like other siege unit, and let them go nuts in the mid-game. This would give Zerg the option of actually attacking a fortified position in the mid-game. The hydra would still be bad at standard fighting, but wouldn't be nearly as worthless as it currently is.
Zerg would have to protect their hydras, and allow them a means of escape (they would still be awfully slow). Positioning would become important. Zerg would have a way and reason to fight for territory rather than just charging in with their whole army and crossing their fingers. Zerg wouldn't have to wait for Brood Lords in order to end a game that was over at the 10 minute mark. The hydra would have a meaningful role in the current game. Zerg would have meaningful anti-air in their standard army composition.
Alas, I am just one man ranting about a unit and offering my own, skewed opinions on how it should be fixed. It is up to Blizzard to decide if they really want this once-great unit to ever be useful in SC2.
I agree with this guy. Hydras as "standard ranged ground unit" have already been overshadowed by the Roach, trying to correct this would be too much balancing work at this stage. If they became a specialized siege unit at least there would be some fun in building them.
You now have blinding cloud and abduct - so you can feasably deal with colossus and tanks. There's nothing added in the expansion that has made hydras die any harder; none of the Terran units or Protoss units. Looks to me like the door is wide open for using hydras. Hydras having range would just overlap with the swarm host though. You can already siege so well with swarm hosts, I don't know why you'd want hydras stats changed in order to siege someone.
Honestly, I'd really like for them to move the upgrade from hive tech to lair tech, and maybe make it a bit cheaper. Then, people will be able to split their hydras/micro em like marines, and they'll be a bit more multipurpose. Having more non roach units are always fun, the roach is the most boring thing ever right now :\
On October 09 2012 12:47 aRyuujin wrote: Honestly, I'd really like for them to move the upgrade from hive tech to lair tech, and maybe make it a bit cheaper. Then, people will be able to split their hydras/micro em like marines, and they'll be a bit more multipurpose. Having more non roach units are always fun, the roach is the most boring thing ever right now :\
As much as that is quite intriguing, I can't help but point out that your multi-pronged attacks were literally only possible on that map. Most WOL maps prevent that style of play with as few points of entry as possible and that map truly stands out as one of the few where the speed of hydras could actually act as a form of harassment. This was also the map used in the battle report, showing that Blizzard probably thought something of a similar stature.
As much as that is quite intriguing, I can't help but point out that your multi-pronged attacks were literally only possible on that map. Most WOL maps prevent that style of play with as few points of entry as possible and that map truly stands out as one of the few where the speed of hydras could actually act as a form of harassment. This was also the map used in the battle report, showing that Blizzard probably thought something of a similar stature.
I believe next patch we are getting some WoL maps added to the pool.
On October 09 2012 12:47 aRyuujin wrote: Honestly, I'd really like for them to move the upgrade from hive tech to lair tech, and maybe make it a bit cheaper. Then, people will be able to split their hydras/micro em like marines, and they'll be a bit more multipurpose. Having more non roach units are always fun, the roach is the most boring thing ever right now :\
Impossible. Hydras have a long fire animation and a small turning animation. You can't kite hydras because of that, no matter how high their speed is.
The weakness of Hydras in WoL that every Zerg made sure to pinpoint, was that it was too slow. Well Blizzard answered to that the best way they could, obviously they couldn't make Hydralisks even stronger midgame, as that would be broken. I think they will be just fine in HotS, when you consider the amount of cost effectiveness Zerg has gotten, since WoL. It might not be a composition that Zergs who only derp around with Roach, Infestor can use, but the top tier Zergs will be able to make it work, for sure.
The problem with Hydras is that Infestors make similar ranged units for minimal energy. For the same food as one hydra, you can have an infestor that makes multiple ranged units which, combined, do more DPS than Hydras. On top of this, when you trade them, you're just trading energy for actual units. If I have a choice between trading 100 minerals and 50 gas in a fight, or just trading energy and keeping an infestor around...that's not even a choice. So because of this, the limiting factor with the Infestors is that they're 100 more gas than a Hydra and they take a little longer to tech. That makes Hydras timing-based, in nature, because there's essentially a superior unit at the same tier of tech. Eventually, if the game goes longer, you get more gas and you can afford Infestors, so there's really no more point to making Hydras.
Think about it: Hydras in WoL are basically just Infested Terrans that cost money. Infestors and Infested Terrans have exactly the same weaknesses as Hydras: Colossi and HTs. But, Infestors themselves have so many more strengths than Hydras because they cast 3 different valuable spells and move while burrowed. Then, on top of that, building a Hydra den basically doesn't help your tech path at all...but building an Infestation Pit? That's the key to Hive.
Regardless of whether the Hydralisk is balanced or the Infestor is balanced, in WoL you would only ever build Hydras as part of a timing attack, or to quickly mount a defense for some sort of opposing timing. After that narrow window, Infestors are just a superior unit. So what's the motivation for a Zerg to put Hydras in their army composition?
Maybe the speed helps to make Hydras more apt at hit-and-run and positioning, but I still don't see why you would want them over Infested Terrans, which have higher DPS per food and take up way lower of a collision space...oh, and by the way, they don't actually cost money....
On October 09 2012 07:55 Horizon.Infinite wrote: I personally think the problem lies with the Infestor. Infestors can shut down air play just like the hydra can, but can also provide a lot, making the Hydra pretty much pointless, when going Infestors is just a more natural tech path for getting to hive. Maybe if the infestors anti-air capabilities were taken away, i.e Fungal couldn't root, or hit air units, then I think the Hydra would have a better place in the army.
no. preinfestor age hydras werent used either. cause they are terribly expensive for such a flimsy simple and slow unit.
My experience has been that toss has too much autosplash killeverything deathball for hydra to work. However terran is much weaker so I have been able to use it effectively some. Still figuring out it's exact role in the matchup.
As much as that is quite intriguing, I can't help but point out that your multi-pronged attacks were literally only possible on that map. Most WOL maps prevent that style of play with as few points of entry as possible and that map truly stands out as one of the few where the speed of hydras could actually act as a form of harassment. This was also the map used in the battle report, showing that Blizzard probably thought something of a similar stature.
That's not true. The strategy works across any map as long as there's multiple points to attack: use hosts to force their army into one location (either by positioning or by physically forcing them back) and then poke with the rest of your army in another location. All reasonable maps have multiple points of attack once a player claims their 3rd and 4th bases, so at that point in the game, you always have the opportunity to push your opponent around assuming they can't straight up run over your siege line.
On October 09 2012 17:02 ejozl wrote: The weakness of Hydras in WoL that every Zerg made sure to pinpoint, was that it was too slow. Well Blizzard answered to that the best way they could, obviously they couldn't make Hydralisks even stronger midgame, as that would be broken. I think they will be just fine in HotS, when you consider the amount of cost effectiveness Zerg has gotten, since WoL. It might not be a composition that Zergs who only derp around with Roach, Infestor can use, but the top tier Zergs will be able to make it work, for sure.
Speed is not THE problem with Hydras, it is one of many.
Cost is another one. Outdated +1 range upgrade is another. lack of any major purpose or place in a given army yet another.
The Hydra is a very problematic unit, and I don't think hive-tech speed will fix that. Not by any means.
I miss hydras from beta that would slaughter stimmed marines in a straight up battle. Hydras were one of my fav units in bw, and I get sad because I can hardly use them in sc2.
On October 09 2012 23:22 guitarizt wrote: I miss hydras from beta that would slaughter stimmed marines in a straight up battle. Hydras were one of my fav units in bw, and I get sad because I can hardly use them in sc2.
On October 09 2012 17:02 ejozl wrote: The weakness of Hydras in WoL that every Zerg made sure to pinpoint, was that it was too slow. Well Blizzard answered to that the best way they could, obviously they couldn't make Hydralisks even stronger midgame, as that would be broken.
I think the problems with hydra go far deeper than the speed, it's just that in the narrow window of time where they're viable (after lair, before colossi/siege tanks) they're still too risky to use because of the speed. The low speed makes it so that you absolutely must commit with them every fight you use them in, something that's true for very few other Zerg units (Pretty much only Broodlords. Infestors are slow too, but you can still hope to Fungal and escape with burrow).
I would have preferred a speed buff midgame together with buffs and nerfs to everything else. As it is I don't know if we're going to see much of them in HotS.
I think that the premise of the thread is wrong. Premise: Hydra in WOL=Hydra in HOTD: bad
The hydra has a position much like ravens and void rays and phoenixes where they are very niche units. And really, with the viper, they have gained some utility. But making them anything more than they are is quite a hard argument to make when there is no where for them to go besides "we love hydras"
On October 10 2012 04:52 Bippzy wrote: I think that the premise of the thread is wrong. Premise: Hydra in WOL=Hydra in HOTD: bad
The hydra has a position much like ravens and void rays and phoenixes where they are very niche units. And really, with the viper, they have gained some utility. But making them anything more than they are is quite a hard argument to make when there is no where for them to go besides "we love hydras"
The hydra shouldn't be niche. It shoots air and ground with equal damage and range, it's 2 supply - it's the Zerg Stalker.
The problem with it is twofold:
1. It lacks retention value. No blink upgrade with which to escape, no shields to regenerate out of combat or healing from medivacs - they're fodder, and too expensive to be fodder. Better to use roaches, which have better burst damage and live a bit longer to boot.
2. Zerg lacks units like the Colossus (or, equivalently, Protoss HAS the collossus). You can make mostly stalkers, add a small number of colossus to make your army hugely more frightening, and then slowly transition into zealot/archon or whatever you like. But if you make a similar army of hydra, there's nothing equivalent to the colossus you can lean on during that vital "Shit, he's maxed with robo tech" period to keep you alive. So Hydra are a really all-in move. If you want a fair shake at the late game you need to be at hive tech earlier, and to be safe that means infestors, which means no hydra.
EPT
