On October 08 2012 20:39 exog wrote: Just give Hydra +5 extra dmg vs armored.
since i think the entire +dmg system is stupid i dislike it.
also, what armored units would that help against? hydras wont deal with tanks or colossi anyway and the other armored units they already do well against
no they dont. test it. they lose to marauders, immortals, landed vikings, VRs, carrier, BC, thors, roaches supplywise. they trade with blink stalkers. so yeah...hydras suck incredibly and need some serious buffs to even make them okay. combined with a fungal nerf to a slow its also fine balancewise.
Single unit type on single unit type testing is pretty meaningless. Hydras lose to roaches, but roach/hydra beats equal supply pure roach (it takes pretty much the same time for him to kill X of your roaches as if you had pure roach, but over that time your hydras are doing more DPS so the battle swings in your favour).
Still, it's undeniable that Zergs have gone to extraordinary lengths over the past two years to avoid building hydra, a unit that ought to have been a staple of a mid-game army. Something must be making it suck pretty hard
well testing them 1v1 is pretty meaningless but if a unit loses basically to every other unit in the game supplywise and even is a unit you build aroung getting maxed (so supply matters) it just shows something sucks extremely with it.
no pro going for hydras in a macro game zvt or zvp also shows this and i think no decent player of any race will call hydra a good unit ^^
we´ll just have to wait until blizzard thinks HOTS units are fine and starts to rework/buff WoL units. think we´ll have to wait at least 2-3 weeks for that to happen.
On October 08 2012 20:33 CYFAWS wrote: first off: in the beta hydras had their hp lowered by 10. I did not understand the change then and I still don't. IIRC people were just going mass hydra and because people played like crap they couldnt deal with the dps, which we now know is extremely easy. Revert that.
also it seems hydras would have a good use combined with viper: swarm the mean stuff, pull main targets into hydra range, and back off. avoid losses and constantly weaken the composition of the enemy. This is just theorycrafting though. it also seems z just has a lot of better options than this that does NOT involve the hydra.
but seriously, hydras have beastly dps. they are expensive, but as long as you can avoid deathballfights they are strong. the viper allows quite efficient shutdowns of deathball play, the hydra SHOULD be usable like this.
Just watched State of the Game EP02 (from JP McDaniel aka itmejp) where they were talking about the balance update on patch 8 (2010). In that update Roach/Hydra was deemed too strong. Roach being 2 armor and hydras having 90 HP. They nerfed both Roaches and Hydras in the very same patch because this was a popular and strong composition. But what they didn't know was that it was only roaches that were the problem with their 2 armor. So they never even tried only nerfing one of those units. That is the main reason why the hydras is what it is today.
Anyway, the reason Hydras are not used is because Infestors and Roaches fill their role perfectly. I would suggest a slight nerf to both Infestor (fungal not snare, but slow) and roaches (DMG or health) while buffing hydras with 1. X more hp 2. Better burst damage but equal DPS, just like someone already mentioned before me. This would make them benefit more from ranged attack upgrades (as 15 damage being the threshold of whether you get +1 or +2 attack bonus from 1 upgrade). 3. Make hydras attributes "Biological" only, completely removing the "light" part. I mean it's just hilarious that hellions, banelings and reapers counter Hydras so hard. 4. Make the speed upgrade Lair tech. 5. Increase general range by 1 or 2. Actually having range 6 with an upgrade to range 7 would be splendid and a huge buff to hydras.
There suggestions needs to be tested of course. And if it turns out that hydras are a bit too strong with these changes, tone it back a little.
I also strongly agree that Swarm Hosts should have something to do with the Hydra. It makes a lot more sense than coming from the Infestation Pit. Even if swarm hosts are morphed from hydras would be a really nice dynamic like people have been suggesting.
Theres a lot of work to be done with the Hydra for sure, and I really hope that Blizzard realizes this,
On October 08 2012 20:39 exog wrote: Just give Hydra +5 extra dmg vs armored.
since i think the entire +dmg system is stupid i dislike it.
also, what armored units would that help against? hydras wont deal with tanks or colossi anyway and the other armored units they already do well against
On October 08 2012 17:02 Umpteen wrote: I think Hydra (and underused WoL units in general) should be given the Widow Mine treatment: buff them 'till it hurts and see how it pans out over a week or so.
For instance: make hydra plain bio (non-light), make them as fast as stalkers unupgraded and have 6(+1) range. Everyone spams them for a week and we see what happens, then dial 'em back (maybe DPS?) accordingly.
So... I play with Hydras a lot at the higher master level. If you've been hit with a Roach/Hydra attack in TvZ, it was probably done by me...
Anyway, I can safely say that damage is not a proper buff for Hydralisks. Quite simply, they don't need to do more damage. That is the LAST thing hydras are lacking.
The first major issue of the Hydralisk is their range. 5 range - 150/150 upgrade for +1 range.
The upgrade, right off the bat, doesn't make any sense to me. It seems to be a hold-over from Brood War where upgrades like this used to be standard. Other similar units got their range upgrade built-in from the get-go, but not Hydralisks.
Range is most obviously revealed to be a major problem for the Hydralisk in ZvP. Force fields teamed up with Stalkers absolutely destroy Hydralisks. This might not be as much of an issue if Hydras had burrow movement, or ANY way to deal with force fields, but they don't. Not that they are particularly good anyway, but force fields completely shutting them down makes them as useless as roaches, and far more costly in the resources department. Where as Roaches can be thrown away in an attempt to slow down Protoss tech/econ, throwing away even a handful of Hydras will likely cost Zerg the game.
Speed is the second major issue plaguing the unit. Inexplicably, Hydralisks are the ONLY standard range (6 or less) non-specialist unit that moves at 2.25 speed with no upgrade upgrade or special abilities available. Other comparable units would be the Immortal (50 dmg per shot vs armored), Sentry (caster unit), Terran bio (stim), Roach/ling (speed upgrades), Zealot/Stalker (Speed upgrade/blink). EVERY OTHER UNIT either has longer range, some specialty ability, or better cost-effectiveness than the Hydra. The unit simply lacks any reason to encourage players to invest in it.
The last major issue I will sum up as cost-effectiveness, because it can be dealt with in many different ways. The hydralisk could either have it's stats buffed (change armor type, increase hp, increase damage/range/speed) or have it's cost reduced (supply and/or mined resources). As mentioned in point 2, there is just no reason I WANT to make hydras. Their damage is 'good' at best and everything else they bring to the table is quite bad.
Personally, I think the BW hydra has no place in SC2. It's just not needed. I have mentioned before that I would like to see a siege-hydra. Change the 150/150 range upgrade to +3 range (vs ground only if needed) instead of +1, reduce their damage to 10, make them cost 1 supply, maybe even knock their cost down to 75/50, so they are more gas-heavy like other siege unit, and let them go nuts in the mid-game. This would give Zerg the option of actually attacking a fortified position in the mid-game. The hydra would still be bad at standard fighting, but wouldn't be nearly as worthless as it currently is.
Zerg would have to protect their hydras, and allow them a means of escape (they would still be awfully slow). Positioning would become important. Zerg would have a way and reason to fight for territory rather than just charging in with their whole army and crossing their fingers. Zerg wouldn't have to wait for Brood Lords in order to end a game that was over at the 10 minute mark. The hydra would have a meaningful role in the current game. Zerg would have meaningful anti-air in their standard army composition.
Alas, I am just one man ranting about a unit and offering my own, skewed opinions on how it should be fixed. It is up to Blizzard to decide if they really want this once-great unit to ever be useful in SC2.
The Hydra Speed Upgrade just doesn't address the real problem. Hydralisks are already one of the fastest units in the game, even offcreap. And the DPS is also very high already.
The problem is that they require support units which tank the damage (=Roach) or they just melt instantly. However, you cannot tank with Roaches against long range units with focus fire (Siege Tanks & Colossi) or air (Mutas, Phoenix, Carriers). This is why Hydras suck against all Air units except Void Rays. Hydras indeed need more HP so that they can function as an independent unit.
The speed research is a terrible idea anyway, it makes the roach and hydra fit even more similar spots. With the roach taking the role of effective ranged unit vs everything the hydra simply doesn;t fit well. One of them should have something unique, for example bonus vs light or bonus vs armored to create reasons where you want the roach or reasons where you want the hydra. If they are too similar it is just very hard to find situations where you want the one but not the other. Sure they differ in being able to hit air and their tech requirements but for the rest roach and hydra are too similar imo.
On October 08 2012 23:58 .syd. wrote: The Hydra Speed Upgrade just doesn't address the real problem. Hydralisks are already one of the fastest units in the game, even offcreap. And the DPS is also very high already.
The problem is that they require support units which tank the damage (=Roach) or they just melt instantly. However, you cannot tank with Roaches against long range units with focus fire (Siege Tanks & Colossi) or air (Mutas, Phoenix, Carriers). This is why Hydras suck against all Air units except Void Rays. Hydras indeed need more HP so that they can function as an independent unit.
No, they are not among the fastest units in the game. Don't post crap like this.
2.25 speed is considered standard speed, and generally reserved for specialist units that bring siege capabilities or caster abilities.
On October 08 2012 17:02 Umpteen wrote: I think Hydra (and underused WoL units in general) should be given the Widow Mine treatment: buff them 'till it hurts and see how it pans out over a week or so.
For instance: make hydra plain bio (non-light), make them as fast as stalkers unupgraded and have 6(+1) range. Everyone spams them for a week and we see what happens, then dial 'em back (maybe DPS?) accordingly.
First of all those stats are per unit. Second of all, the dps of most unit differ, depending on what they attack. Yes, one hydralisk has 14.5dps, and one marine "only" 7 and stimmed "only" 10.5. But one hydralisk costs 100/50/2 and one marine 50/0/1. So you have to compare at least 2marines to one hydralisk and then we have 14/21 dps for the marine.
Then there are units like the marauder with 6.7/10 dps vs nonarmored and 13.4/20 dps vs armored, that costs 100/25/2. There are roughly as many armored units as nonarmored units in the game, so a marauder fighting against a "random" unit has 10.05/15 dps. Similar for the immortal. "half"(because it costs 250/100/4, so to compare it with a hydralisk we have to assume half an immortal or 2hydralisks) an immortal does 12.075dps in combat against a random unit.
Hydralisks are average singlefire dps units, or maybe slightly over average, but surely not "good" dps. A marine has good dps. A zergling has even better dps. The hydralisk has (slightly over) average dps against everything.
i´d love to see them make roaches 2 armor again and less damage. so they could tank a lot more and the hydra could be the damage dealer (buff hydra dps + range + lairtechspeed). that way they would have more different roles and roaches alone would be worse since they would do a lot less damage. hydras would be much better at supporting and be better vs air.
@.syd: hydras lose terribly vs voidrays even supply.
so pls dont buff hp and make them even more like a superexpensive roach. make them better vs air and better as a support unit.
On October 09 2012 00:06 Big J wrote: Hydralisks are average singlefire dps units, or maybe slightly over average, but surely not "good" dps. A marine has good dps. A zergling has even better dps. A marauder/immortal fighting against an armored unit have amazing dps. The hydralisk has (slightly over) average dps against everything.
SO many fallacies in this statement, where to begin.
The first problem is that you are ignoring range in the DPS equation. You are falling victim to the idea of DPS in a vacuum. And well... it's not... ever...
The most evident area where you make this mistake is mentioning that marines have good DPS followed immediately by saying zergling dps is even better.
If we start the fight with 1 zergling in melee range of a marine and let them both auto-attack the whole time, sure zerglings have better DPS. But this is NEVER the case. Not only do Zerglings have to close the gap, they are ALSO limited by surface area. MOST of the time, not all Zerglings are participating in a given fight. It is safe to say that Marines generally have better or equal DPS to Zerglings. So much so that Blizzard feels comfortable giving 2 lings for the price of one marine.
Another perfect unit to point to is the Colossus. getting 50% bonus range from it's upgrade is what really makes it a worthwhile unit. Pre-upgrade it's DPS is decent. Post-upgrade, it's game-breaking.
Mostly I'm going to jump on your undervaluing of the Marine. You somehow think the Marine has "good" DPS vs everything, but Marauders have amazing dps vs armored units... You DO realize that Marines do more dps to armored units than Marauders do (per supply/cost)... right?
On October 09 2012 00:06 Big J wrote: Hydralisks are average singlefire dps units, or maybe slightly over average, but surely not "good" dps. A marine has good dps. A zergling has even better dps. A marauder/immortal fighting against an armored unit have amazing dps. The hydralisk has (slightly over) average dps against everything.
SO many fallacies in this statement, where to begin.
The first problem is that you are ignoring range in the DPS equation. You are falling victim to the idea of DPS in a vacuum. And well... it's not... ever...
The most evident area where you make this mistake is mentioning that marines have good DPS followed immediately by saying zergling dps is even better.
If we start the fight with 1 zergling in melee range of a marine and let them both auto-attack the whole time, sure zerglings have better DPS. But this is NEVER the case. Not only do Zerglings have to close the gap, they are ALSO limited by surface area. MOST of the time, not all Zerglings are participating in a given fight. It is safe to say that Marines generally have better or equal DPS to Zerglings. So much so that Blizzard feels comfortable giving 2 lings for the price of one marine.
Mostly I'm going to jump on your undervaluing of the Marine. You somehow think the Marine has "good" DPS vs everything, but Marauders have amazing dps vs armored units... You DO realize that Marines do more dps to armored units than Marauders do... right?
I think that's enough for now...
you talk about effective dps, which is hard to calculate or argue. I talk about stats, because that's what is easy to calculate. As I was responding to someone referring to stats, this approach makes sense.
Good catch about the marauder/marine(/immortal) vs armored thing though. Gotta change that, it's simply wrong.
I think a lot of people are missing what is truly wrong with the Hydralisks beyond being hugely nerfed when migrated to Starcraft 2.
When I think of their problems, two things immediately come to mind. The Roach. And Unit Design.
First off, the Roach has never really been what Blizzard intended, this fast, tank-ish, quick regeneration unit. Most units that came from Starcraft 1 and Brood War as well as the units that were created for Starcraft 2 all have special little niches or abilities. The Roach's burrow move and fast regeneration never really panned out and now it is just simply a little overpowered A-move unit. Dull, uninteresting, and poorly made. Now that it is still a simple A-move unit with better numbers in the wrong tech spot, it has forced the Hydralisk into it's tech spot where it also doesn't belong and making it useless and under-made.
Next, is Unit Design, which Hydralisk just doesn't have any. Simple as that, zero thought was put into this unit, as was with most Zerg units. There is no special ability for the Hydralisk. It doesn't have a passive like Immortals, or any +damage like most other units of other races. No Blink, no stim, no charge, etc. There is no special ability for players to utilize that add anything to this unit. All the Hydralisk is now is a severely nerfed version of Brood War's Hydralisk....with out the speed.
I think Blizzard should have never screwed with the tech positions of classic units in the first place if they were to keep units from Brood War. At this point I'm ready to say just get rid of Hydralisk!
On October 09 2012 00:29 Jermstuddog wrote: I guess I was being a little harsh. The vast majority of people in the Starcraft community tend to undervalue the Marine.
There is a reason why it makes up 50% of all Terran armies all the time. It's not because people think it's cool.
When a unit like the marine stands out like this, it tells me one of two things:
-That unit's potential when managed correctly is just too damn good
-All the other units in the game's potential when managed correctly doesn't give a comparable benefit for paying close attention to micro.
On October 09 2012 00:29 Jermstuddog wrote: I guess I was being a little harsh. The vast majority of people in the Starcraft community tend to undervalue the Marine.
There is a reason why it makes up 50% of all Terran armies all the time. It's not because people think it's cool.
When a unit like the marine stands out like this, it tells me one of two things:
-That unit's potential when managed correctly is just too damn good
-All the other units in the game's potential when managed correctly doesn't give a comparable benefit for paying close attention to micro.
I have never made it a secret that I think the Marine is the biggest offender in the balance game of SC2 and Blizzard has handled nerfing the Terran race all wrong.
Simply put, the Marine didn't need +15 HP coming over from Brood War., and that is largely where the problems stem.
Something as simple as a -5 HP nerf to the Marine would have been enough to set the Terran race on the path to proper balance oh so long ago, but Blizzard thought Marines were cool, and forced them upon the game. Now we have Colossus and Fungal to deal with them. Non-Brood Lord air units are largely useless, and the game seems stagnant in this death-ball death grip.
If Blizzard would have just toned down the Marine at release, the other OP bullshit wouldn't be necessary to live and could also be tuned down.
On October 09 2012 00:29 Jermstuddog wrote: I guess I was being a little harsh. The vast majority of people in the Starcraft community tend to undervalue the Marine.
There is a reason why it makes up 50% of all Terran armies all the time. It's not because people think it's cool.
When a unit like the marine stands out like this, it tells me one of two things:
-That unit's potential when managed correctly is just too damn good
-All the other units in the game's potential when managed correctly doesn't give a comparable benefit for paying close attention to micro.
Well, the marine has a lot of micro possibilities, but it could be dumbed down to and easier to handle while staying the same powerlevel, if there was any use in it. (which I'm strictly against)
But the marine must be a strong unit, if we want biotech as it has been designed to be viable. Terran can't switch fast into the "perfect counterunit", so the universal unit has to be a good choice against everything that the specialized marauder/reaper/ghost cannot deal with, while providing reasonable support in all scenarios in which the opponent switches quickly.
EPT
