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On October 08 2012 17:28 Velr wrote:
Imho the main problem is, that the Hydra <--> Roach relation does not work.
The Roach just outshines it because it just delivers more for less cost. I mean, if not for the 2 supply cost... Why would you ever build another Zerg unit ^^.
Bring 1 food Hydras back, lower their cost, lower their DPS, lower their size.... Make them Hydras again...
The roach has too much damage/range for it's role, and the hydra not enough.
You don't need to complement roaches with hydras, because you need too much buffer for hydras to shine and not enough dps support for the roach to do it's tanking job.
On top of that, the hydra does its damage fairly slowly. All the other glass canons in the game have either a burst/splash effect (Colossus, Siege Tank, Infestor, Templar) or are marines.
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i like hydras being on lairtech. hydras on hatchtech would either shut down banshee/phoenix play completely or hydras would never be build against airplay (more likely since queens cost no gas and are better vs air anyway). 2fac helion play would be a problem without roaches etc.
best thing would really be to make them 1 supply, 75/25 and adjust their hp + dps so that its a buff overall.
lairtechspeed is definetly a must but like it has been said: even with the speedupgrade on lair hydras just suck as a unit. so either buff their dps (their dps/health/supply/cost ratio sucks incredibly) and range or make them 1 supply, less min/gas.
bump this thread in 2-4 weeks since bowder already said they will first adjust the new units.
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I have faith in the new Hydra, but we need to give time for players to be innovative.
They need a completely different appROACH, compared to the Infestor/Broodlord composition.
We've already seen strong Hydra play in WoL, which means that it really does not require a lot of buff to change the fact that Hydras will be used. They might never be the unit that you get every game, but they do certainly have a role in the game.
It's not just that Hydras have gotten a speed buff on Hive tech, there's also the Viper, which contributes the unit so well, there's also the Swarm Host, which shares the same attack upgrade and the fact that Protoss has only gotten Stargates units.
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On October 08 2012 18:01 ejozl wrote:
I have faith in the new Hydra, but we need to give time for players to be innovative.
They need a completely different appROACH, compared to the Infestor/Broodlord composition.
We've already seen strong Hydra play in WoL, which means that it really does not require a lot of buff to change the fact that Hydras will be used. They might never be the unit that you get every game, but they do certainly have a role in the game.
It's not just that Hydras have gotten a speed buff on Hive tech, there's also the Viper, which contributes the unit so well, there's also the Swarm Host, which shares the same attack upgrade and the fact that Protoss has only gotten Stargates units.
just no. we havent seen strong hydra play in WoL. at least not since 1,5 years after roach hydra corruptor. hydra is only used in zvz to fill the last 20 supply. other than that hydras outright suck even with speedupgrade and lose to over 80% of units supplywise and trade with 10%. but hey they win vs the last 10% which includes workers ROFL.
hydras need a significant buff as a unit + lairtechspeed. then they could finally be useful in a macrobuild which would be awesome. if roach hydra all ins become too strong --> slightly nerf the roach.
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Viper/Infestor/ Hydra seems like a good unit composition.
Stop 'em in their tracks, cut their range and then fill'em with spines.
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On October 08 2012 18:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Viper/Infestor/ Hydra seems like a good unit composition.
Stop 'em in their tracks, cut their range and then fill'em with spines.
HT superrape this comp. ^^
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On October 08 2012 18:22 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 18:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Viper/Infestor/ Hydra seems like a good unit composition.
Stop 'em in their tracks, cut their range and then fill'em with spines. HT superrape this comp. ^^
Not if abduct fires off first. ;p
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On October 08 2012 19:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 18:22 Decendos wrote:On October 08 2012 18:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Viper/Infestor/ Hydra seems like a good unit composition.
Stop 'em in their tracks, cut their range and then fill'em with spines. HT superrape this comp. ^^ Not if abduct fires off first. ;p
feedback range 9 or even 10(?), abduct range 7 and not even insta. and 1 HT can kill 8 viper so you dont need many HT in your comp. T and P will learn how to use feedback/snipe which is very nice since it adds micro. Z will have to learn how to scout the position of the ghosts/HT and then abduct units that arent protected, which also adds micro.
--> higher skill ceilling on both sides --> nice.
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On October 08 2012 19:04 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 19:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 08 2012 18:22 Decendos wrote:On October 08 2012 18:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Viper/Infestor/ Hydra seems like a good unit composition.
Stop 'em in their tracks, cut their range and then fill'em with spines. HT superrape this comp. ^^ Not if abduct fires off first. ;p feedback range 9 or even 10(?), abduct range 7 and not even insta. and 1 HT can kill 8 viper so you dont need many HT in your comp. T and P will learn how to use feedback/snipe which is very nice since it adds micro. Z will have to learn how to scout the position of the ghosts/HT and then abduct units that arent protected, which also adds micro. --> higher skill ceilling on both sides --> nice.
It would be nice, but there's precious little opportunity for that kind of micro. It's just far too easy to keep your HT clumped up with the units you want to protect (or indeed standing under them).
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The Hydra speed increase was mostly for ignorant people Imo, as the Hydra is one of the fastest units in WoL already, only on creep, but why would a zerg want to fight without it. Especially when spreading it everywhere takes almost no effort once you hit lair and have a 100 gas to spare. So yeah that this upgrade won't help in any way was pretty much a given. The Viper was actually the unit to look over too, as it works perfectly around the hydras weaknesses.
Anyway the Hydra is super fast out once you hit t2, unless a toss rushes for aoe the hydra is out before and has a timing. The Problem is getting to the opponent in time, but thats why nydus is t2 for example and why overlords can spread creep as soon as t2 hits. I have no problem with Hydra rushes on t2, they work well they are good to stop a timing push from toss.
But apart from this, why would you want to go for hydras. There are a ton of different Hydras in the Zerg arsenal, the cheap but supply expensive Roach that is tanky and hit hard and its damn fast off creep and can heal itself etc. Then there is the slow Queen that is actually faster then most units on creep can make high hp units tank over 2k damage. Note its a high hp unit itself and has a way longer range then the Hydra against air. Last but not least there is the Infestor that can drop 8! almost Hydra like units and since the Infestor allows the Zerg to decide when to fight, it is not an issue that they are actually slow.
The Hydra falls right in the middle of these other 2 Hydras and the Hydra factory unit who are all 2 supply and have one or two advantages over the Hydra. Except for doing a strong t2 push, the Hydra isn't really desirable to get over those units. Buffing the Hydra is no option as it would make the t2 push to strong, t3 buffs are to late ... though i have to admit the Viper allows you to do a phase 2 Hydra push lol.
I personally like the Hydra push against toss FFE, and the Viper really helps alot protecting Hydras lategame, but they also help protecting the better Hydras Zerg has. So Imo there needs to be another t3 upgrade. They are microable like Marines on creep, but they really lack something that wants you to get them over the other units, especially the infested Terrans with their huge damage output for a short amount of time.
But well some hp into damage or a unit piercing shot, thats everything on the terran side already. But if they buff their stats in anyway, they will need to put in another t2 upgrade to keep the rush the same strength.
Other then that yes getting Hydras seems a bit stupid right now. But as they have said, they work on HotS units first. And I have no doubt they will address the Hydra (might end up getting removed and hydra den becomes swarm host den ...)
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On October 08 2012 19:11 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 19:04 Decendos wrote:On October 08 2012 19:00 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On October 08 2012 18:22 Decendos wrote:On October 08 2012 18:20 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Viper/Infestor/ Hydra seems like a good unit composition.
Stop 'em in their tracks, cut their range and then fill'em with spines. HT superrape this comp. ^^ Not if abduct fires off first. ;p feedback range 9 or even 10(?), abduct range 7 and not even insta. and 1 HT can kill 8 viper so you dont need many HT in your comp. T and P will learn how to use feedback/snipe which is very nice since it adds micro. Z will have to learn how to scout the position of the ghosts/HT and then abduct units that arent protected, which also adds micro. --> higher skill ceilling on both sides --> nice. It would be nice, but there's precious little opportunity for that kind of micro. It's just far too easy to keep your HT clumped up with the units you want to protect (or indeed standing under them).
hopefully we will see more multipronged attacks possible with buffed hydras so there will be more and smaller battles which makes it harder to just clump to one deathball. but you are right that clumping will protect the units but also makes them more vulnerable to fungal. we´ll see but there is a lot of micro potential addet by abduct on both sides so i really hope they keep it a strong spell which is high risk high reward.
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Mmm, just re-arranging the movement and ranged upgrades to Lair tech and Hive tech respectively, and reducing their attack animation and removing their turn animation would be a reasonable, first step towards re-balancing the unit. Then you can add Swarmhosts to the Hydralisk Den, Vipers to the Spire (+Hive) and then I think you have a more diversifed tech path with greater synergy from Lair tech upwards.
Or maybe you could just give Hydralisks the ranged and movement upgrades base, because even if you move the movement upgrade to Lair tech, you're still 40 seconds behind the movement upgrade for Roaches and that eliminates a window for earlier Roach/Hydralisk timing attacks
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I guess there are a few problems which make the Hydralisk a not used unit in the game so far.
1. the Hydra Den gives you just one unit so the utility of this building is not that big. I think they should move the Swarm Host with its upgrade to the Hydra Den and maybe make the Swarm Host a morph from the Hydra (like the Lurker was). So there would be more than one reason to get the Hydra Den. This way the Hydralisk would be a stepstone to another tech and one would see it a lot more e.g. as AA in Swarm Host builds.
On the other hand I do not get the fact why Blizzard made the Infestation Pit the requiring building to the Swarm Host. The Infestation Pit is already built in most the games becaus one would like to tech to Hive.
2. there are too many units which fit the role of the Hydra better. As already mentioned the Roach became a core unit in ZvZ as well as in ZvP because of a very good price-performance ratio. The Infestor in the other hand is the best support unit in the game which provides AA as well as a pretty strong AoE also being AA.
So maybe a nerf of Infestors or Roaches could open up a bigger utility window for the Hydralisk.
3. the price-performance ratio of the Hydralisk is just too bad. It has (too) little HP, 2 food and maybe the size of the unit is also a problem. As one know Hydras truly suck vs AoE so Marines do. But Terran players are able to make the Marine work against AoE (splitting, dodging or with the Marodeur as a tank).
So the third part of my post is about balancing the unit itself. One thing i still do not get is the range upgrade for the Hydralisk. Yes, you buy it when you go for Hydra but would it be such a big deal if the Hydralisk has 7 range without the upgrade and just remove it?
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first off: in the beta hydras had their hp lowered by 10. I did not understand the change then and I still don't. IIRC people were just going mass hydra and because people played like crap they couldnt deal with the dps, which we now know is extremely easy. Revert that.
also it seems hydras would have a good use combined with viper: swarm the mean stuff, pull main targets into hydra range, and back off. avoid losses and constantly weaken the composition of the enemy. This is just theorycrafting though. it also seems z just has a lot of better options than this that does NOT involve the hydra.
but seriously, hydras have beastly dps. they are expensive, but as long as you can avoid deathballfights they are strong. the viper allows quite efficent shutdowns of deathball play, the hydra SHOULD be usable like this.
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Just give Hydra +5 extra dmg vs armored.
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On October 08 2012 20:33 CYFAWS wrote:
first off: in the beta hydras had their hp lowered by 10. I did not understand the change then and I still don't. IIRC people were just going mass hydra and because people played like crap they couldnt deal with the dps, which we now know is extremely easy. Revert that.
also it seems hydras would have a good use combined with viper: swarm the mean stuff, pull main targets into hydra range, and back off. avoid losses and constantly weaken the composition of the enemy. This is just theorycrafting though. it also seems z just has a lot of better options than this that does NOT involve the hydra.
but seriously, hydras have beastly dps. they are expensive, but as long as you can avoid deathballfights they are strong. the viper allows quite efficent shutdowns of deathball play, the hydra SHOULD be usable like this.
14.5;
two stimmed marines do 21
one stimmed marauder does 20 to armored and 10 to nonarmored, so unmicroed/stimmed average ~15; (with more HP, more burst, less cost, slow effect);
similar supply for supply calulations can be done with immortals, unsieged tanks, thors, reapers, landed vikings
So no, Hydra dps is not "beastly". Hydra dps is pretty average for a singlefire unit with medium range.
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On October 08 2012 20:39 exog wrote:
Just give Hydra +5 extra dmg vs armored.
since i think the entire +dmg system is stupid i dislike it.
also, what armored units would that help against? hydras wont deal with tanks or colossi anyway and the other armored units they already do well against
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On October 08 2012 20:51 CYFAWS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2012 20:39 exog wrote:
Just give Hydra +5 extra dmg vs armored. since i think the entire +dmg system is stupid i dislike it. also, what armored units would that help against? hydras wont deal with tanks or colossi anyway and the other armored units they already do well against
no they dont. test it. they lose to marauders, immortals, landed vikings, VRs, carrier, BC, thors, roaches supplywise. they trade with blink stalkers. so yeah...hydras suck incredibly and need some serious buffs to even make them okay. combined with a fungal nerf to a slow its also fine balancewise.
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Zenio style players should be happy since they've been using the Hydra effectively in WoL already. 
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Hopefully they will make them viable, once they've finished rough tweaking of hots units.
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EPT
