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tekken tag 2 got a bad review from ign (mainstream) because...ITS HARD.
watch the review on ign, he repeats how hard the game is for the new players and they gave a 7.5/10 meanwhile a lot of tekken fans say this is the best tekken so far (me including), gameplay wise and not story/1player, obviously.
in that sense, should the game be designed for the fans such as someone myself who played tekken since tekken 2, hating tekken 4 but still fan of it and will end up buying all sc2 regardless of bad they are because i'm a fan of starcraft, or the mass populous that has no interest in depth and just want to enjoy the game without having to invest so much time into it and then move onto something new? is sc2 better being angry bird or bw?
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All I know is I still haven't stopped playing Mortal Kombat: Trilogy because that game is so hard I feel like a masochist when I sit down and play it for longer than half an hour without beating the first ladder on Very Easy with a new character. God, what a great game...
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Agreed. The warhound and many units like it (Marauder, roach) are just plain terrible given the design of the races.
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very good write-up orb i really agree with you 100% Warhound needs overhauled without a doubt.
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Agree with it mostly, also I find that for new players and such, a ton of my friends don't play sc2 simply because of "its just too hard" I don't agree that a simple unit change or even a race over haul will change their minds. To them they don't play starcraft2 because is starcraft2. It is just too hard and as casuals they don't want to put in the effort. Lets face it, the base game of sc2 is not a casual game, you won't gain decent skill unless you put in the time, no one is naturally really good at sc2 when you first pick it up like you can be with an FPS. Yes Blizzard is trying to appeal to the casuals with a more fluid custom game experience. Great! So they should focus on that for casuals and they should then focus on the base game of sc2 to appeal to us, the non casuals, the people who don't want anymore A-move units.
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On September 14 2012 12:49 Digitalis wrote:
Agree with it mostly, also I find that for new players and such, a ton of my friends don't play sc2 simply because of "its just too hard" I don't agree that a simple unit change or even a race over haul will change their minds. To them they don't play starcraft2 because is starcraft2. It is just too hard and as casuals they don't want to put in the effort. Lets face it, the base game of sc2 is not a casual game, you won't gain decent skill unless you put in the time, no one is naturally really good at sc2 when you first pick it up like you can be with an FPS. Yes Blizzard is trying to appeal to the casuals with a more fluid custom game experience. Great! So they should focus on that for casuals and they should then focus on the base game of sc2 to appeal to us, the non casuals, the people who don't want anymore A-move units.
100% agree.
Blizzard should concentrate on promoting Blizzard Dota to Casuals. RTS =/= Casual. They simply don't go together. And when you try you fail. For example: AOE Online, CC4, Halo Wars.
Casuals want to play checkers, not chess.
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On September 14 2012 14:11 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:49 Digitalis wrote:
Agree with it mostly, also I find that for new players and such, a ton of my friends don't play sc2 simply because of "its just too hard" I don't agree that a simple unit change or even a race over haul will change their minds. To them they don't play starcraft2 because is starcraft2. It is just too hard and as casuals they don't want to put in the effort. Lets face it, the base game of sc2 is not a casual game, you won't gain decent skill unless you put in the time, no one is naturally really good at sc2 when you first pick it up like you can be with an FPS. Yes Blizzard is trying to appeal to the casuals with a more fluid custom game experience. Great! So they should focus on that for casuals and they should then focus on the base game of sc2 to appeal to us, the non casuals, the people who don't want anymore A-move units. 100% agree. Blizzard should concentrate on promoting Blizzard Dota to Casuals. RTS =/= Casual. They simply don't go together. And when you try you fail. For example: AOE Online, CC4, Halo Wars. Casuals want to play checkers, not chess.
Right, because nobody plays Chess casually.
I will never understand this fervent belief that some people have that making a game reasonable for casual play automatically and irrevocably makes it bad for non-casuals.
I know it's been upwards of 14 years since SC1's release, but guess what? SC1 was a casual RTS game! It was later appropriated by the competitive scene because it had depth. But it was, at the time, a casual RTS game.
Casual play is important. There's a reason why Street Fighter is played by more pros than King of Fighters, regardless of the general concensus among pros that KoF is harder. The fact is this: you need casuals, because every generation of competitive players starts as casuals. They like some element of the game, so they keep playing and get better at it. They then become competitive.
Without those casuals-turned-competitive players, all you have are a closed, isolated group of players. And every year, some of them will stop playing. Without new casuals-turned-competitive to bolster numbers, your community slowly withers and effectively dies.
Now that doesn't mean I support things like the Warhound. But I also don't support this notion that making the game casual unfriendly makes it a better game.
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Sweden64 Posts
any toss nerdraging about warhound right now should take a good look on how retarded toss is on WOL.
Basicly everything is hardcounter to bio, zealots with their retarded armor which makes them the best A move unit in the game, many pro terrans like thorzain almost lost to master toss doing zealot only build.
storms, archons, sentry, colo, everything is their just to counter bio, terrran army will basicly die in 10seconds even with perfect spread.
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we were saying what orb is saying now during Wings of liberty beta about everything. Blizzard is not going to change anything and the game will continue to be mediocre
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Some of the attitude among the "pro" players is just terrible.
You seem to think that you talk for the majority while posting on Teamliquid. The average player here on Teamliquid is waaaaaay above the average SC2 player. I have a lot of friends that play SC2 from time to time and guess what, they think lazers pew pew is fun and they like everything about HoTS, even the warhound.
Because they (and me too for that matter) only play SC2 like once a week.
BW for casuals (that is the majority of Blizzards customers, you know the majority of where the cash flow comes from) was absolutely terrible. Sure it was fun to watch Flash vs JD but playing was incredibly frustrating for someone that plays games once a week.
SC2 is replayable. The definition of replayability for a lot of people here seems to be "replayable 3 hours a day at least". For me, replayable means "replayable once a week" and SC2 absolutely delivers.
So I have a hard time understanding this so call "replayability" from players that play SC2 for hours per day.
Blizzard is doing an absolute fantastic job with SC2. I gave up on BW because it was exhausting to play. With SC2 me and my friends finally have a game we can enjoy and play each other once a week without feeling we have to relearn everything.
Thank god Blizzard has changed with time and adapted to the majority (the people you guys refer to as casuals) of players.
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very well wrote orb, after your little episode i had lost a lot of respect for you but as a terran player this was dead on
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Well-said. It's by no means an idea alien to the community, but it was expressed well. Clearly the Warhound is fundamentaly flawed, and a few tweaks to make it "less imbalanced" won't fix the problem that the unit brings directly to the table.
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I agree with this post, SCII is way too easy atm.
I rarely play the game, maybe 10 games in the last 4 months, but I can still easily maintain masters level by just building what I feel like, completely ignoring build orders or timings etc.
If that's possible.. whats the point really.
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On September 14 2012 16:30 Jakkerr wrote:
I agree with this post, SCII is way too easy atm.
Then why don't you play in the GSL and win $100,000? I'd do something easy that was worth that kind of money.
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Interesting, I thought all you said was about colossus and which seems to make more sense.
You are guarantee to be able to play with low mechanics and it make some bad protoss player looks acceptable including many casters including ... It's brilliant to use reaver as an example instead of ... colossus.
Seriously, I really dont understand why colossus is allowed to in the game but warhound.
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simply put, warhound is a boring unit and also an awkward unit.
and I totally agree.
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On September 14 2012 16:41 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 16:30 Jakkerr wrote:
I agree with this post, SCII is way too easy atm. Then why don't you play in the GSL and win $100,000? I'd do something easy that was worth that kind of money.
it's easy to play not to win, it's not easy to win simply because it also easy to play, for all the other players, julyzerg talked about this when he switched
and there is basically almost zero skill GAP,
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I don't think that this is a particularly strong or well put argument. I generally dislike the tribalism of SC. Toss vs terran vs zerg. BW vs. SC2. Pro vs. casual. The reason being is that it creates bias that clouds judgement.
You can see that in the thread.
-self identified "hardcore" players nod their heads in sage agreement. The warhound is bad.
-self identified "casual" players are angry about perceived elitism. The warhound is fine.
And both camps make poor arguments based on personal bias and try to dress them up as fact.
I don't think this thread will do anything to change the warhound significantly as everything here will be entirely unsurprising to blizzard and unsurprising is ignorable. Although if the page count gets incredibly high very quickly it might get noticed. Which is why I made this post.
On a purely subjective and personal level: I have watched HoTs streams and the warhound looks like a unit ripped from a bad RTS circa 1990. An ed209 on cocaine with all the unique charm of a two week old banana. I dearly hope we can get it changed significantly and not just get it balanced. However I don't think this thread will do it and I don't think this argument deserved a spotlight.
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On September 14 2012 19:07 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 16:41 gedatsu wrote:On September 14 2012 16:30 Jakkerr wrote:
I agree with this post, SCII is way too easy atm. Then why don't you play in the GSL and win $100,000? I'd do something easy that was worth that kind of money. it's easy to play not to win, it's not easy to win simply because it also easy to play, for all the other players, julyzerg talked about this when he switched and there basically almost zero skill GAP,
Anyone you specifically would like to face in Code A?
Flash: Not really. Everyone is really good in SC2.
Could this imply the low skill ceiling or am i reading to much in to it :p
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On September 14 2012 19:23 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 19:07 Garmer wrote:On September 14 2012 16:41 gedatsu wrote:On September 14 2012 16:30 Jakkerr wrote:
I agree with this post, SCII is way too easy atm. Then why don't you play in the GSL and win $100,000? I'd do something easy that was worth that kind of money. it's easy to play not to win, it's not easy to win simply because it also easy to play, for all the other players, julyzerg talked about this when he switched and there basically almost zero skill GAP, Anyone you specifically would like to face in Code A? Flash: Not really. Everyone is really good in SC2. Could this imply the low skill ceiling or am i reading to much in to it :p
You are reading into to much. Flash is just being polite. Korean players do not directly call each other out, they trash talking is more passive aggressive.
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EPT
