EPTCould the Goliath provide a better solution? - Page 2
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blug
Australia623 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12027 Posts
Thor is awful at AA other than attacking mutalisks... | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
The Goliath + battle hellion + widow mine makes mech truly viable in TvP. Right now Mech (with ghosts) can be strong, but it's open to way too many timings because tanks are weaker and there's no spider mines (also warp-ins, immortals and blink, oh my). If there's a range upgrade to give 9-10 AA range on the goliath, it also makes fighting broodlords semi-possibly, without having to resort to vikings. | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
On September 10 2012 21:03 althaz wrote: As pretty much everybody has said since the warhound was first introduced (at Blizzcon?), it's crap, replace it with the Goliath. The Goliath + battle hellion + widow mine makes mech truly viable in TvP. Right now Mech (with ghosts) can be strong, but it's open to way too many timings because tanks are weaker and there's no spider mines (also warp-ins, immortals and blink, oh my). If there's a range upgrade to give 9-10 AA range on the goliath, it also makes fighting broodlords semi-possibly, without having to resort to vikings. And this is the problem I saw with it. It just seems to me that Blizz was trying to make itself look creative and thus created a pretty boring, clashing, and shitty unit altogether. As far as the Viking is concerned, that's another reason why I want the "Titan" to be more ground-orientated and more of an air deterrent than a direct counter, so that Vikings still have purpose as an Anti-Air/Mech unit. I feel Mech needs that unit earlier on that it can at least deter aerial units (while not outright beating them, so Muta harassment can be fended off if your Micro/Scouting is good, but not straight up beat) before Thor. | ||
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Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
On September 10 2012 12:34 MasterCynical wrote: The Thor most likely will never be cut due to the collector edition special skin, there will be alot of people that will feel cheated if the Thor is cut for Hots, and blizzard probably doesn't want that situation to happen. I play mostly random, but honestly I think I never noticed the skin ever when I play. | ||
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Astynax
Canada3 Posts
Swap role of Thor & Warhound instead Current state Thors: Anti air for terran mech primarily vs muta and also a front line unit to soak up damage Warhounds: Designed to be a siegebreaker - anti mech but ends up being a major anti protoss However, currently it is also being used very effectively as a reaver and effective base D due to speed Suggestion Thor: In WoL, thors arent used against protoss because theyre too slow, expensive and countered by immortals & chargelot. They are used vs zerg and sometimes in TvT for anti viking or to soak up damage against tank lines. If blizz wanted an anti siegeline unit, this should be it. It takes a lot of tank fire and isnt splashed much due to its' size, so a small group of would be capable of breaking siege lines if they were given haywire that HOTS warhounds have now. It would again be limited by cost, size and slow movement, which would make it not seen vs Protoss and would be difficult to mass unlike the warhound. Take away its' anti air ability and it will be used for purely anti ground mech vs terran. It would still do ok against zerg with the normal auto attack, be used vs T against other mech (also effective vs warhounds) but too slow and expensive to make a large number of to be the primary army. An ability such as haywire SHOULD NOT be able to be massed Warhound: Give the warhound the ability to shoot air but due to the lower cost than thors either take away the splash or reduce the anti air damage significantly thus making the warhound the AA for mech play. Given their current speed, it is better suited to fend off fast moving mutas or drops for which mech is vulnerable. It would also still do sufficient damage against ground units and is easily massable. With the proposed changes, the matchups would be affected as follows Against T: Warhounds to act as the anti air and the main fodder in a mech army. Thors could be moved in or medivac dropped to haywire tanks if an opening is left or to flank effectively thus requiring positioning and careful use of the haywire ability to break siege lines rather than a simple A move warhounds. It would also make players have to balance between expensive, high dps units like tanks & thors with fodder units like marine, hellion and warhound rather than just massing warhounds. A hard counter to a unit should not be more of that unit (see warhound vs warhound…). As such, if a lot of thors are made marine, marauder should be able to shred it so a balance has to be made in mech with tanks and hellions vs MM. Warhounds would just be the mech AA and fast response to drops. Against Z: AA against muta would be still achieved using warhounds. Thors would likely not be made, therefore matchup stays similar to how it is currently. Furthermore, siegeline breakers would remain to be broodlords as it is currently, in addition to burrow charge ultra or swarmhost. Also due to the viper cloud, it would be easy to blind the thors and have mutas mop up ALL of the mech if thors were left as the primarly mech AA. However, with more warhounds out on the field it would be harder to just hard counter mech with 1 spell on and a muta flock. This would also be augmented by the fact that thors are SLOW, which would make it difficult to move out of an AOE spell that prevents them from shooting air. Mutas should remain as harass units, not the hard counter to mech along w the viper. Z has a lot of options to break siege lines already. Against P: No more massable haywire and makes thors slightly more viable due to their heavy anti mech ability so well placed thors would do significant damage to a deathball (which blizz wants to go away from). Mech will be extremely viable due to battle hellions vs zealot; tanks vs armored; haywire vs immortals and would take micro to make sure each units is attacking the right thing to pick apart a deathball, while a deathball would still do heavy damage, thus making this matchup a huge slugfest rather then deathball "A" moving over mech in WoL or warhounds+hellion "A" moving over deathball in HOTS. Taking away haywire from wahounds would prevent mech as anti everything protoss as it is right now. New protoss units have no effect Also to note that terran ground AA is limited to marines. While probably the best AA in the game, late game marines have too low of HP which very die fast thus causing the problem of T having a weak end game. They need marines, but marines don't fare as well late game as the end game units of other races. For a stronger late game T, they can eventually replace marines with warhounds. Also for ground AA Protoss: stalker, archon, sentry Zerg: queen, hydra, infested terran Terran: marine, autoturret, thor Turrets are so rarely seen and marines end up being the main AA for terran, yet are an inflated food supply much like a zerg army maxed on roaches seem like a high food count army, but do much less than you would expect. Swap out the thor in that list and put warhound in and you have a better late game ground AA that doesnt die in 1 hit and isnt dreadfully slow EDIT: Reader solutions from the change added here so more people will see it DeadWombat The Thor was originally billed to be a "tip of the spear" unit anyway, which is ironically what the Warhound is doing now. Giving the Thor the Haywire would really let it fulfill the intended function that it originally had. I am rather certain no one would miss the Thor's 250mm cannons, either. Fun idea but it was never really able to be utilized that well. So if the Thor loses the cannons (and its energy), that would leave High Templar with one less thing to counter as well, making Thors even MORE viable against protoss. Laowai Protoss and Terran players with the skill to outposition the thor user and target-fire it down before it can do much damage will force thor users in higher leagues to turn off autocast and spend their haywire missiles on high-priority units, like siege tanks or colossi. This micro would not be required at a lower level, but would add depth to the game... for better players than me, anyway. Another issue it would fix is one that was actually brought up in the early design stages of HotS, and the reason the warhound was conceptualized in the first place: Thors are pretty bad against mutalisks. Two warhounds are less magic-boxable than one thor, on top of being smaller and more mobile. Their speed would also make them very useful against the new-and-improved air harass from Protoss, leading to small-army map control battles away from the deathball. Tl;dr: Give thors haywire, warhounds anti air | ||
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targ
Malaysia445 Posts
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
1: Thor Removed 2. Warhound Removed 3. Add in Goliath OR if warhound is not removed, remove haywire, replace haywire with Hellfire missles (or something similar), lower ground dps to 10 and lower armor to 1 4. Buff Siege Tank siege damage and Increase cost of siege mode to 150/150 5. Lower Widow Mine Supply Cost and buff the damage | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10870 Posts
It could also share ground Upgrades for it's air form (but start with less base ata dmg). The Viking is allready in game.. It's just a shame that 50%+ of it's potential is not used because blizzrad seems not be willing to balance it.... There are many ways to do this aside from pure statalterations... Just increase the landingtime and suddenly flying into an enemy base is a risk even when it actually does decent on the ground. I just don't see the need for another Mech/Walker when there is allready one in game... | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On September 11 2012 13:30 Astynax wrote: + Show Spoiler + My solution here: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6521293507 on the blizz forums. Initially made an account to spread the thought but 3 day trial prevents me from posting. Swap role of Thor & Warhound instead Current state Thors: Anti air for terran mech primarily vs muta and also a front line unit to soak up damage Warhounds: Designed to be a siegebreaker - anti mech but ends up being a major anti protoss However, currently it is also being used very effectively as a reaver and effective base D due to speed Suggestion Thor: In WoL, thors arent used against protoss because theyre too slow, expensive and countered by immortals & chargelot. They are used vs zerg and sometimes in TvT for anti viking or to soak up damage against tank lines. If blizz wanted an anti siegeline unit, this should be it. It takes a lot of tank fire and isnt splashed much due to its' size, so a small group of would be capable of breaking siege lines if they were given haywire that HOTS warhounds have now. It would again be limited by cost, size and slow movement, which would make it not seen vs Protoss and would be difficult to mass unlike the warhound. Take away its' anti air ability and it will be used for purely anti ground mech vs terran. It would still do ok against zerg with the normal auto attack, be used vs T against other mech (also effective vs warhounds) but too slow and expensive to make a large number of to be the primary army. An ability such as haywire SHOULD NOT be able to be massed Warhound: Give the warhound the ability to shoot air but due to the lower cost than thors either take away the splash or reduce the anti air damage significantly thus making the warhound the AA for mech play. Given their current speed, it is better suited to fend off fast moving mutas or drops for which mech is vulnerable. It would also still do sufficient damage against ground units and is easily massable. With the proposed changes, the matchups would be affected as follows Against T: Warhounds to act as the anti air and the main fodder in a mech army. Thors could be moved in or medivac dropped to haywire tanks if an opening is left or to flank effectively thus requiring positioning and careful use of the haywire ability to break siege lines rather than a simple A move warhounds. It would also make players have to balance between expensive, high dps units like tanks & thors with fodder units like marine, hellion and warhound rather than just massing warhounds. A hard counter to a unit should not be more of that unit (see warhound vs warhound…). As such, if a lot of thors are made marine, marauder should be able to shred it so a balance has to be made in mech with tanks and hellions vs MM. Warhounds would just be the mech AA and fast response to drops. Against Z: AA against muta would be still achieved using warhounds. Thors would likely not be made, therefore matchup stays similar to how it is currently. Furthermore, siegeline breakers would remain to be broodlords as it is currently, in addition to burrow charge ultra or swarmhost. Also due to the viper cloud, it would be easy to blind the thors and have mutas mop up ALL of the mech if thors were left as the primarly mech AA. However, with more warhounds out on the field it would be harder to just hard counter mech with 1 spell on and a muta flock. This would also be augmented by the fact that thors are SLOW, which would make it difficult to move out of an AOE spell that prevents them from shooting air. Mutas should remain as harass units, not the hard counter to mech along w the viper. Z has a lot of options to break siege lines already. Against P: No more massable haywire and makes thors slightly more viable due to their heavy anti mech ability so well placed thors would do significant damage to a deathball (which blizz wants to go away from). Mech will be extremely viable due to battle hellions vs zealot; tanks vs armored; haywire vs immortals and would take micro to make sure each units is attacking the right thing to pick apart a deathball, while a deathball would still do heavy damage, thus making this matchup a huge slugfest rather then deathball "A" moving over mech in WoL or warhounds+hellion "A" moving over deathball in HOTS. Taking away haywire from wahounds would prevent mech as anti everything protoss as it is right now. New protoss units have no effect Also to note that terran ground AA is limited to marines. While probably the best AA in the game, late game marines have too low of HP which very die fast thus causing the problem of T having a weak end game. They need marines, but marines don't fare as well late game as the end game units of other races. For a stronger late game T, they can eventually replace marines with warhounds. Also for ground AA Protoss: stalker, archon, sentry Zerg: queen, hydra, infested terran Terran: marine, autoturret, thor Turrets are so rarely seen and marines end up being the main AA for terran, yet are an inflated food supply much like a zerg army maxed on roaches seem like a high food count army, but do much less than you would expect. Swap out the thor in that list and put warhound in and you have a better late game ground AA that doesnt die in 1 hit and isnt dreadfully slow EDIT: Reader solutions from the change added here so more people will see it DeadWombat The Thor was originally billed to be a "tip of the spear" unit anyway, which is ironically what the Warhound is doing now. Giving the Thor the Haywire would really let it fulfill the intended function that it originally had. I am rather certain no one would miss the Thor's 250mm cannons, either. Fun idea but it was never really able to be utilized that well. So if the Thor loses the cannons (and its energy), that would leave High Templar with one less thing to counter as well, making Thors even MORE viable against protoss. Laowai Protoss and Terran players with the skill to outposition the thor user and target-fire it down before it can do much damage will force thor users in higher leagues to turn off autocast and spend their haywire missiles on high-priority units, like siege tanks or colossi. This micro would not be required at a lower level, but would add depth to the game... for better players than me, anyway. Another issue it would fix is one that was actually brought up in the early design stages of HotS, and the reason the warhound was conceptualized in the first place: Thors are pretty bad against mutalisks. Two warhounds are less magic-boxable than one thor, on top of being smaller and more mobile. Their speed would also make them very useful against the new-and-improved air harass from Protoss, leading to small-army map control battles away from the deathball. Tl;dr: Give thors haywire, warhounds anti air I actually really like this idea. The on'y issue is that it still does not address the Terran Siege Tank issue. Why build a Tank when I can build a WH. Not to mention that there are so many options that each race has that specifically are made to counter Tanks Personally I think Tanks should have a 150/150 upgrade. Maelstrom Rounds Siege Tank's Crucio Shock Cannon deals +40 damage to primary target. Splash damage remains the same. OR Be moved from 3 to 2 food. This may sound a little OP. But the immobility of tanks lends it self that a Terran player cannot simply walk across the map and kill the enemy if the enemy aggressively attempts to circumvent the main Mech army. Not to mention the many tools that each race has to deal with Tanks. | ||
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Hryul
Austria2609 Posts
So they need to think of a "mech" unit that counters all the anti mech P has. Also you should emphasize in your OP what the Goliath should be a solution for. So what is in your opinion the problem? | ||
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Grendel
Belgium126 Posts
I also think they should keep the thor, and just, like in BW make the Goliath long range single target anti air. That would make for a lot of positional fun games, where goliaths want to snipe brood lords, but can't get too close because of Infestors, but at the same time, these Infestors can't come close too due to the Siege tanks. Further, it would remove the necessity to ALWAYS go for Vikings, which is quite boring actually. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10870 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:09 Grendel wrote: I agree. A goliath is what would mech be balanced and fun at the same time. The fact that it's mobile makes it more fun to use and since it has a not so trong anti ground attack it will be pretty balanced from scratch. I also think they should keep the thor, and just, like in BW make the Goliath long range single target anti air. That would make for a lot of positional fun games, where goliaths want to snipe brood lords, but can't get too close because of Infestors, but at the same time, these Infestors can't come close too due to the Siege tanks. Further, it would remove the necessity to ALWAYS go for Vikings, which is quite boring actually. That sounds exactly like the Viking/Tank/Thor+Hellion or Marine vs Broodlord/Infestor dynamic we have atm? | ||
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jrdn
United States132 Posts
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Warpish
834 Posts
On September 11 2012 13:30 Astynax wrote: Tl;dr: Give thors haywire, warhounds anti air I proposed this same solution in another thread. It would make a lot of sense conceptually and in terms of gameplay. It would allow the Warhound/Goliath to be a meaningfull part of a mech composition. It would also make it more useful in all matchups. The Thor would become the siege breaker unit that it was supposed to be and also strong and durable versus mech. | ||
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Warpath
Canada1242 Posts
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LOLingBuddha
Netherlands697 Posts
On September 11 2012 12:08 Sufinsil wrote: I play mostly random, but honestly I think I never noticed the skin ever when I play. Also thats the WoL thor, you can still play WoL as far as i know. so this is a moot point really. in fact...it wouldnt surprise me if in HoTs your thor will look normal again. | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
On September 12 2012 23:07 Hryul wrote: I think one of the main problems of the whole mech play is that blizzard designed too many anti So they need to think of a "mech" unit that counters all the anti mech P has. Also you should emphasize in your OP what the Goliath should be a solution for. So what is in your opinion the problem? I thought I emphasized my opinion clearly, but I'll state it again I guess. My problem is that the Warhound is a bland, quick-fix type unit that offers little for qualitative gameplay. In fact, you could simply state it's an over-sized, beafier Marauder that is Mechanical. Watching numerous games, in TvZ it just makes SCII more of a battle of attrition than a battle of wit and in TvP it's a very bad design choice for dealing with units intentionally designed well to counter Mech play. I also posted what it's supposed to counter and how it counter anti-mech itself. | ||
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