|
Hello teamliquid.net forums,
I have been an increasingly active poster here for the past couple of weeks and I feel like I have enough claim to back up this concept I have. As we all have been seeing, the new Warhound in Terran Mech is considerably imbalanced and a generally uninteresting unit for many. From the start, I thought it was a bad idea. Not the concept of a unit being able to best the Immortal, because Terran Mech needs that, nor the aesthetics of it (I was actually intrigued by it at first). My gripe was/still is that the concept of a unit is that it is designed to nullify the Immortal's vital role in giving Protoss viability versus Terran Mech just to make Terran Mech work in PvT. Sure, Chargelots are good, but realistically they are just a mineral sink as a result of combined Mech forces, especially now with the Battle Hellion. The Warhound really feels like a half-assed, plug-in concept to fix a larger problem with a cheap solution. In its current state, it does the exact same as a Marauder offensively as it is strong against Armore-Mechanical, except that it's a stronger manifestation given that it has more health and a different set of counters. It's only 50/100 more too. Frankly, since the Warhound is making the unit that allows Protoss to have an edge against Terran completely null/void, gameplay is just shitty and becomes about Quantitative enjoyment rather than Qualitative.
As a result of all of this, I have been thinking of possible solutions. Of course there are balance suggestions, ones that include making the Warhound more balanced in terms of Damage/Cooldown/Delay etc. But the one I keep finding the best until proven elsewise is the switching of the Warhound with the Goliath.
Now I know some of you are already thinking to call me a "Brood War Fanboy" and that all I want is to make SCII a sequel-adaptation of Brood War, but I'll go ahead and say that I only played Single-Player in Brood War as a result of technical limitations at the time. That said, my theory that the Goliath is better for altogether balance is based on analyzing the features of the Goliath found in SCII versus the weaknesses of the Protoss/Zerg and how the Goliath is balanced based on the counters Protoss/Zerg have to offer.
In SCII, the Goliath is a high DPS Tier 1.5 Terran Mech unit with a decent speed, fair cost (150/50/3 Supply) and a decent moderate DPS Anti-Air attack. It would require the same tech to produce as the Warhound does. With its decent speed, that of which is faster than a Zealot, it can kite in the early game and requires a great bit of micro to utilize in larger engagements with more unit compositions, satisfying the Terran-demand that it not be a deathball unit. Of course, the campaign Goliath would need tweaking to achieve relative balance, but it seems to be a better, more acceptable unit.
Against Protoss ground forces, its high DPS would not be deterred by the Immortal's Hardened Shield like most other Mech units' attacks would, plus the Immortal is designed to be susceptible to high DPS, higher numbered units, but it would still be countered by the Immortal upon being hit. It would need to be adjusted to be better versus Stalkers (since Stalkers have the bonus against Armored units) and Zealots would still force the player to micro. Protoss Air would be a questionable balancing point, however, so the Goliath in multiple would need to be heared more towards Ground affairs.
Against Zerg, Goliaths can be effective against a number of Zerg units (Zerglings, Roaches, scouting Overlords, Mutalisks, Corruptors), while being vulnerable to a variety of Zerg units (Hydras, Brood Lords, Swarm Hosts, Vipers, Ultralisks). The Goliath also offers Anti-Air at an early stage of the match for Mech, allowing Terran Mech to feasibly fight off Mutalisk and other air harass or allow an ease into a transition without having to stretch too badly to crank out the resources for enough Thors, by which time it could be too late.
The Goliath simply seems to be a better unit for fixing balance than the Warhound in a good many ways that it shouldn't be ignored. Even if the Goliath changes a good bit, one could qualify its entrance by giving it a new name like Titan to symbolize more ground-focused operations, while also symbolizing its considerably well-rounded capacity against both ground and air. I realize this is a very long post, but I do believe it's necessary for me to even lightly explain my theory on a better unit to replace the controversial Warhound, which I honestly see as a skin-switched, oversized, A-Move Marauder you can produce out of the Factory. I will refer to this Goliath concept as the "Titan."
If the thread becomes popular enough, I will create an FAQ in the original post.
Team Liquipedia Info on the Goliath:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Campaign/Goliath
|
the thor essentially replaces the goliath in sc2. the goliath required the armory, just as the thor does, and just as the warhound does. to 'come out faster than a thor' you are asking to minus the armory requirement, so you are allowing terrans to pump goliaths faster than they could even pump warhounds now, and give them extremely competent mobile antiair abilities at this stage in the game.
so in the end you are asking to introduce a faster produced warhound that has the originally planned antiair. im not sure how this is a solution?
|
The original design of the warhound was a new skin for the goliath. Literally it was the same unit but ugly. To make room for it they were going to remove the thor. For whatever reason they changed their mind and decided to keep the thor, which meant that the warhound needed to fulfil a different role.
Blizz had already been playing with the idea of long range missile units to break tank lines, so they changed the warhound AA to do that. The warhound is balanced around the tank.
However it seems to have been designed in a bubble where no one knew that protoss actually exist.
For all the reasons that the warhound has become what it has become, there is no room for the goliath in SC2.
On September 10 2012 10:10 a176 wrote:
the thor essentially replaces the goliath in sc2. the goliath required the armory, just as the thor does, and just as the warhound does. to 'come out faster than a thor' you are asking to minus the armory requirement, so you are allowing terrans to pump goliaths faster than they could even pump warhounds now, and give them extremely competent mobile antiair abilities at this stage in the game.
so in the end you are asking to introduce a faster produced warhound that has the originally planned antiair. im not sure how this is a solution?
Warhound does not require armory.
|
I'm saying to switch the Warhound with this Goliath concept, one I will continue to refer to as the "Titan."
On September 10 2012 10:10 a176 wrote:
the thor essentially replaces the goliath in sc2. the goliath required the armory, just as the thor does, and just as the warhound does. to 'come out faster than a thor' you are asking to minus the armory requirement, so you are allowing terrans to pump goliaths faster than they could even pump warhounds now, and give them extremely competent antiair abilities.
so in the end you are asking to introduce a faster produced warhound that can rape enemy air very early in the game. im not sure how this is a solution?
No. I don't believe you read my post the entire way through. The new Goliath would have changes and balances to make it more ground-efficient and simply a Mech unit that can deter, but not right-out counter, Air units. It would require the exact same structures responsible for bringing out the Warhound.
I also want to add that the Warhound currently does not require an Armory to produce, unless this happened within the past Beta Balance Patch.
|
What if you gave the Warhound/Goliath a casting ability to change any MECH unit into a MERC version of that unit?
|
They should focus the 3rd factory unit as an anti-air type unit with an ok ground attack. Currently, the warhound appears to be more anti-ground than anti-air which essentially becomes a re-skinned marauder coming out of the factory instead.
To me, it would be a complete design flaw if a warhound can out-dps a non-sieged tank.
|
On September 10 2012 10:20 Zariel wrote:
They should focus the 3rd factory unit as an anti-air type unit with an ok ground attack. Currently, the warhound appears to be more anti-ground than anti-air which essentially becomes a re-skinned marauder coming out of the factory instead.
To me, it would be a complete design flaw if a warhound can out-dps a non-sieged tank.
Thanks for reminding me. I thought that the Warhound reminded me of an oversized Marauder too, which just points out how half-assed the Warhound's concept really is now.
|
I think they could give Warhound and Battle Hellion a combine ability that would give it long-range flamethrowers and antiair gatling gun, thoughts? Name it Warhellionimus Prime
|
What if you gave the Warhound/Goliath a casting ability to change any MECH unit into a MERC version of that unit?
http://imgur.com/qB9hY - Image I put together in 5 min. to convey the general idea.
|
The warhound is supposed to fix the so-called "mech hole." As far as I can tell the "mech hole" is usually referring to the absence of some unit to take damage while the siege tanks fire, as well as a unit to defend counter attack paths long enough for the tanks to reposition.
I'd argue that the battle hellion fills the first part of that hole, and the widow mine is supposed to fill the second part. The other mech weaknesses that may need fixing are weaknesses to zealots, immortals, and air (thors do splash damage, but pretty bad damage if its not splashing all over the place). So my thoughts:
The warhound's ground attack is thought to be too strong. I'd say weaken it, but still give it some bonus damage to mechanical, and make it hit in two chunks instead of one so it can still kill immortals pretty well (i.e. unaffected by Hardened Shield).
The warhound is awfully fast, which is pretty inconsistent with the nature of mech play. Slow it down, there's no reason it needs to be that fast.
The warhound originally had an air attack with small splash, back when they were thinking of removing the thor. I'd say remove the haywire missiles, put back the air attack, but make it single target damage instead of splash. People often get thors to deal with clumped air units, and marines to deal with unclumped air units; now you can do the same with thors and warhounds.
The warhound would look pretty similar to the goliath, but not exactly identical (bonus damage to mechanical, for instance). It would definitely fill a support role, rather than a main one, and it would still make warhound + marine a good response to tanks in small numbers, but a bad response in big numbers. Warhounds would still be useful in TvZ for their anti-air and tanking capabilities, even if the bonus damage to mechanical wouldn't get used.
|
On September 10 2012 10:13 Kharnage wrote:The original design of the warhound was a new skin for the goliath. Literally it was the same unit but ugly. To make room for it they were going to remove the thor. For whatever reason they changed their mind and decided to keep the thor, which meant that the warhound needed to fulfil a different role. Blizz had already been playing with the idea of long range missile units to break tank lines, so they changed the warhound AA to do that. The warhound is balanced around the tank. However it seems to have been designed in a bubble where no one knew that protoss actually exist. For all the reasons that the warhound has become what it has become, there is no room for the goliath in SC2. Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 10:10 a176 wrote:
the thor essentially replaces the goliath in sc2. the goliath required the armory, just as the thor does, and just as the warhound does. to 'come out faster than a thor' you are asking to minus the armory requirement, so you are allowing terrans to pump goliaths faster than they could even pump warhounds now, and give them extremely competent mobile antiair abilities at this stage in the game.
so in the end you are asking to introduce a faster produced warhound that has the originally planned antiair. im not sure how this is a solution? Warhound does not require armory.
the goliath skin in sc2 was ugly as all hell too so your point there is moot.
and yes, warhounds dont, but goliaths did. thats his point.
|
For some reason I get the impression that whatever Blizzard will do in the future patches (ie become goliaths), Warhound model will stay the same... People were giving negative criticism of the model since the beginning and it's still the same :S
|
The Thor most likely will never be cut due to the collector edition special skin, there will be alot of people that will feel cheated if the Thor is cut for Hots, and blizzard probably doesn't want that situation to happen.
|
On September 10 2012 12:34 MasterCynical wrote:
The Thor most likely will never be cut due to the collector edition special skin, there will be alot of people that will feel cheated if the Thor is cut for Hots, and blizzard probably doesn't want that situation to happen.
I think this is the least likely reason to keep the thor, and not a factor at all in their decision making.
|
I've always thought that the Goliath or something similar would definitely be the way to go. Before I heard about the Battle Hellion, my idea was to have more or less a goliath, but make its ground attack very high dps but short range (like 3 or less) so that way it can both deal with zealots and air units, but you create an interesting dynamic where you need your Goliaths in the front to deal with zealots, but also need to keep the alive to deal with air (Carriers hopefully...).
But yeah idk, almost anything would be better than the Warhound
|
The Thor was never intended to be a goliath replacement, but it ended up as one because the megaunit concept failed for Blizzard. Right now, it costs more gas, is slower, and has a much heavier emphasis on anti-ground than anti-air.
Vikings are about as close to a true goliath replacement as you can get, but Assault Mode was pummeled into the dirt with the nerf bat (perhaps with good reason, although I never got to see the betaviking in action) and the unit obviously wouldn't sync very well, as it requires a different building / different upgrades.
This whole thing is a mess, really.
|
On September 10 2012 12:21 DougJDempsey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2012 10:13 Kharnage wrote:The original design of the warhound was a new skin for the goliath. Literally it was the same unit but ugly. To make room for it they were going to remove the thor. For whatever reason they changed their mind and decided to keep the thor, which meant that the warhound needed to fulfil a different role. Blizz had already been playing with the idea of long range missile units to break tank lines, so they changed the warhound AA to do that. The warhound is balanced around the tank. However it seems to have been designed in a bubble where no one knew that protoss actually exist. For all the reasons that the warhound has become what it has become, there is no room for the goliath in SC2. On September 10 2012 10:10 a176 wrote:
the thor essentially replaces the goliath in sc2. the goliath required the armory, just as the thor does, and just as the warhound does. to 'come out faster than a thor' you are asking to minus the armory requirement, so you are allowing terrans to pump goliaths faster than they could even pump warhounds now, and give them extremely competent mobile antiair abilities at this stage in the game.
so in the end you are asking to introduce a faster produced warhound that has the originally planned antiair. im not sure how this is a solution? Warhound does not require armory. the goliath skin in sc2 was ugly as all hell too so your point there is moot. and yes, warhounds dont, but goliaths did. thats his point.
It still looks 100x better than Warhound....
|
![[image loading]](http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100817141557/starcraft/images/d/d3/Goliath_SC2_Rend1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Starcraft-2-Heart-of-the-Swarm-Units-Warhound-01-600x337.jpg)
the warhound model only looks slightly better than the sc2 goliath, the sc2 goliath needs to be more domey like in BW
|
On September 10 2012 10:13 Kharnage wrote:
The original design of the warhound was a new skin for the goliath. Literally it was the same unit but ugly. To make room for it they were going to remove the thor. For whatever reason they changed their mind and decided to keep the thor, which meant that the warhound needed to fulfil a different role.
Blizz had already been playing with the idea of long range missile units to break tank lines, so they changed the warhound AA to do that. The warhound is balanced around the tank.
Blizzard doesn't understand that there are so many ways to break tank lines.
1) MMM - I don't know how many times I've seen MMM just attack into Tanks and win. Also drops are killer against Tank heavy players.
2) Nukes - The only reason we don't see more Nukes is because Tanks line stalemates haven't happened since Beta. People learned how to deal with it.
3) Banshees. A solid Banshee player will easil pick of tons of Tanks, especially as they reinforce the front.
4) HSM may also be helpful if you game Raven some more love.
5) BCs may also work if you kill the Viking and bring back Goliaths, as the Goliath gets crapped on by tanks, thus allowing the BC to come in.
|
I feel like taking out the warhound and increasing the damage of tanks would be awesome. Along with battle hellions and tweaked version of the widow mine, mech in sc2 could actually be fun to play.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
