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Note: This is NOT a thread about how I hate Blizzard, how I hate HotS, how Protoss doesn't need more detection, how I hate Oracle and how it should be redesigned. It was obviously redesigned between alpha and beta, and it still might be changed later, but I wanted to discuss the current state of the units and how it can be used best.
So it's the second day of beta and everyone who has the beta key enjoys playing with their new toys + Show Spoiler +. Some units are pretty straight forward, like Warhound (1a gogogo!), some have obvious perculiarities, like Tempest (no, you shouldn't mass them and send to the enemy through the center of the map, trust me).
And some are just not explored yet, like Oracle. Obvious thing about Oracle is Entomb -- a lot of Protosses already figured out that Oracle opening involves energizing your Oracle and sending him to troll enemy mineral lines.
Less obvious thing is that Oracle has 2 vision spells, and in a few Protoss streams I watched the players didn't figure out how to use both of them to the best effect.
Preordain targets buildings, lasts 120 seconds and has a big radius. It does *not* reveal cloaked/burrowed units. Obviously, it is a "scout" spell: you use it to find out what tech route your enemy uses, how many workers he has and when does he move out from his base. It is also obviously the best spell to support Tempest harass... or is it?
Revelation targets any area, lasts 30 seconds and has a much smaller radius. It does reveal cloaked/burrowed units, but it does NOT grant vision under fog of war the same way Terran's scan does (so let's stop this bitching about how Blizzard gave Protosses the same ability). You can compare it to ghost's EMP, since revealed units remain visible while cloaked/burrowed for the duration of the effect.
So, Revelation is like EMP on steroids for detection, except it does not affect shields or energy. It also seems like revealed units stay visible under fog of war. So, if you Reveal an enemy army, you will see its movements for 30 seconds, and your Tempests can target them with their long range balls of doom.
In particular, if you use Preordain on enemy "town hall", your tempests might start targeting enemy structures around it. This might be not very effective, since Tempests have very low DPS. However if you use Reveal on enemy workers, Tempests will target only them! (*)
(*) Well, I imagine it will work like that. I don't have a beta key myself. Edit: confirmed below
Revelation will probably become important spell to defend against banshees/mutas (except oracles will die just from mutas staring at them menacingly) -- you're not just detecting banshees, but you see where they go when your opponent tries to hide them in fog of war. Alternatively you can use Preordain on your far edge buildings to see incoming threat.
And of course, using Revelation will be very advantageous against late game armies (especially against terran ghosts), but Oracles are even more susceptable to sniping than observers.
So that's my thoughts on Oracle. Let's hear yours!
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Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!!
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On September 07 2012 01:26 GeNeSiDe wrote: Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!! if you're mentally disabled i guess they can be fun? Or could you explain me what's fun about using entom, pre-ordain or a scan?
User was warned for this post
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On September 07 2012 02:09 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:26 GeNeSiDe wrote: Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!! if you're mentally disabled i guess they can be fun? Or could you explain me what's fun about using entom, pre-ordain or a scan?
It's fun because your tempest can shoot in their full 22 range. Shooting in a range of 10 (tempest's vision is 10) is not so fun as in a range of 22.
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On September 07 2012 02:09 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:26 GeNeSiDe wrote: Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!! if you're mentally disabled i guess they can be fun? Or could you explain me what's fun about using entom, pre-ordain or a scan?
please refrain from personal attacks just because someone else thinks something is fun when you don't..
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On September 07 2012 02:09 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:26 GeNeSiDe wrote: Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!! if you're mentally disabled i guess they can be fun? Or could you explain me what's fun about using entom, pre-ordain or a scan?
Where did that come from?
I'm excited to see more people start using the Oracle, I don't see it enough at the moment. Any stream using it a lot?
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Canada13389 Posts
I thought the detecting spell thing only provided detection in an area that the oracle casts its spell so long as you have vision of that area.
It just gives detection, but not vision.
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On September 07 2012 02:09 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:26 GeNeSiDe wrote: Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!! if you're mentally disabled i guess they can be fun? Or could you explain me what's fun about using entom, pre-ordain or a scan?
Wow pretty vicious calling someone mentally disabled because they said that part of a computer game looks fun... I guess you just call anyone and everyone mentally disabled for pretty much no reason? Of course in itself, these kinds of abilities won't be fun but it gives detection via stargate, so another counter to DT opening stargate without robo as viable in PvP perhaps? This is one in maybe 100 different effects which they will have which could improve the fun of the game... I don't think you have to be mentally disabled to see that.
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While it's good that protoss can get detection without going robo, it seems a bit redundant with two skills that are that similar. Wish they had at least tried keeping the cloak ability during beta, because that was far more interesting. They should at least remove preordain and replace it with something less overlapping and more interesting.
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I think both of the vision spells will converge into one spell that involves detection in some shape or form, probably something like Ocular Parasite, because Protoss need a way to detect for Banshees if they tech to Starport first vs. Terran. If all it did was give target friendly unit or building detection, it'd be pretty good. Giving an enemy unit or building detection and stealing their site radious would be a bonus. I like abilities that make the opponent think about having to kill his own stuff or peel it away from the deathball.
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I think this will solve rock/paper/scissor in PvP because you will not die to DT with stargate opening again.
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it just feels akward that toss isn't forced on robo tech anymore ... since my childhood it was always get that damn robo bay and the observatory if you don't want to die. But i guess they had to do it in order to promote airplay for protoss. Don't really see a big issue in getting the robo + obs though. Could be old conservative me, needing so much more valuable gas to get to observers in bw, so i don't really mind the few bits of gas you need in sc2 to not die to cloaked stuff that comes later.
Kind of destroys almost any sort of cloak/burrow play against toss though in the early game, which is really sad. But it is something that will take some time to find out, if the vision spells are way to strong in terms of intel you gain.
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On September 07 2012 03:04 FeyFey wrote: it just feels akward that toss isn't forced on robo tech anymore ... since my childhood it was always get that damn robo bay and the observatory if you don't want to die. But i guess they had to do it in order to promote airplay for protoss. Don't really see a big issue in getting the robo + obs though. Could be old conservative me, needing so much more valuable gas to get to observers in bw, so i don't really mind the few bits of gas you need in sc2 to not die to cloaked stuff that comes later.
Kind of destroys almost any sort of cloak/burrow play against toss though in the early game, which is really sad. But it is something that will take some time to find out, if the vision spells are way to strong in terms of intel you gain.
Locking detection to a specific tech tree is the reason that many build for Protoss do not involve stargate at all. Even if you wanted to get three to five phoenixes(300-500 gas), you need to delay your robo for so long that you risk losing to DT and cloaked banshees. The detection for stargate is not nearly as good as the detection for robo, so it levels out.
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On September 07 2012 02:29 ZeromuS wrote: I thought the detecting spell thing only provided detection in an area that the oracle casts its spell so long as you have vision of that area.
It just gives detection, but not vision. It doesn't give the vision of an area, yes. I specifically said that it's not terran scan remade 
Anyway, I would appreciate if someone from the beta clarified the mechanics of Revelation, we already have enough guessing in HotS threads (people still whine about cloaking field )
On September 07 2012 03:04 FeyFey wrote: Kind of destroys almost any sort of cloak/burrow play against toss though in the early game, which is really sad. But it is something that will take some time to find out, if the vision spells are way to strong in terms of intel you gain.
Well if you say that Protoss is "forced" to get a robo anyway, it means cloak/burrow play is already dead?
Oracle is 150/200, and it's quite an investment. Also you have to have it at your base and with energy -- which seems minor considering their speed and availability of energize, but most people will usually immidiately use energize and send oracle to use entomb if they don't scout cloak tech in time. Besides, people are already used to splitting cloaked units to dodge terran scans.
Anyway, every race will have 3 sources of detection in HotS: a stationary building, a unit and a spell (well, it's still 2 spells for terran) and I think people will still find ways to loose to DTs somehow
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Definitely happy about the detection ability on the oracle. Not getting an auto-loss vs. banshees when opening stargate will be nice.
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It also seems like revealed units stay visible under fog of war. So, if you Reveal an enemy army, you will see its movements for 30 seconds, and, as I assume, your Tempests can target them with their long range balls of doom.
I can confirm this, you keep vision of the units that where on the targeted area (just the units, similar to how burrowed units vision works), and ofc you can 22 range attack those with Tempest.
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On September 07 2012 05:38 Kaleidos wrote:Show nested quote +It also seems like revealed units stay visible under fog of war. So, if you Reveal an enemy army, you will see its movements for 30 seconds, and, as I assume, your Tempests can target them with their long range balls of doom. I can confirm this, you keep vision of the units that where on the targeted area (just the units, similar to how burrowed units vision works), and ofc you can 22 range attack those with Tempest. Thanks! So my theorycraft in the OP is not a bunch of nonsense, nice to know
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Thank you OP! I had misunderstood the changes to the Oracle and was kinda disappointed, but now I'm thinking that this is going to very useful. The Revelation ability is like an Observer that can't be sniped.
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If there's just one thing I hope remains in this game for Protoss it's the detection ability of the Oracle. Needing to build a robotics facility in every PvT and PvP game is simply bad game design and really hampers Protoss' ability to be versatile in those matchups, and also contributes to the over-representation of the most boring Protoss unit: the Colossus. With this new possibility for Terrans to go mech, I can't wait to see how people are able to use stargate units against Terran, it may even be like banshee openers in TvZ if you think of the defending queens as defending marines amidst a purely ground mech army. Now P's have the chance to mix things up in a way that doesn't involve taking huge build order loss risks. And since this also means that Terran's will have to consider these new openers, the entire match-up will become more fruitful from this new build diversity. It's exciting to say the least.
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Another question for beta owners: can you use Preordain on neutral buildings, like destructible rocks and statues? And what about creep tumors?
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Can you target your own buildlings with preordain?
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You can only target enemi buildings.
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On September 07 2012 06:36 avilo wrote: Can you target your own buildlings with preordain? That appears to be the case. Though people have not been using a lot of cloaked banshee openers on stream, so it is hard to tell.
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On September 07 2012 06:36 avilo wrote: Can you target your own buildlings with preordain?
How should this action benefit you?
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On September 07 2012 06:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:36 avilo wrote: Can you target your own buildlings with preordain? That appears to be the case. Though people have not been using a lot of cloaked banshee openers on stream, so it is hard to tell. Again: Preordain does NOT have detection
On September 07 2012 06:47 testthewest wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:36 avilo wrote: Can you target your own buildlings with preordain? How should this action benefit you? Theoretically you can preordain buildings on the edge of your base to spot incoming drops, mutas, etc
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Protoss gained 2 units that makes smart energy management so much important. An idle Oracle/Mothership core is ra waste of money. But your objective isn't making it low. You still need to use energy smatly
Something like: if you are always using entomb, you wont have energy to use revelation/preordain when these spell are needed.
The same with Mommacore. you can use energize to power-up your macro, but you won't have energy to recall/energize spellcasters then.
It's like a normal Macro mechanic, but you have to use in the correct/smart way instead of just mechanically use it like Injects/Mule/Chronno Boosts.
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.... toss already has an observer. That coupled with canons is really all they need. This is including the fact that theres no observatory like there was in bw so its a shorter tech tree. Don't really see a need to double dip so hard.
Tangent question: is the overseer still out? And does the viper have that detection thing he can give units?
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TBH revelation is what I'm most excited about with oracle. I LOVE my stargate opens in PvP but I generally need to grab a robo pretty fast incase of DTs. being able to go pure stargate in PvP should be a ton of fun. Though the archon bust may still be tough to deal with... on the other hand, I'll have more stalkers due to not needing to invest in robo tech against the DTs so maybe that will help.
Hell, how are VRs against archons? Seems like they should be decent as archons are massive...
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Thanks for the clarification. Before I was thinking revelation was just a scan, but this has much cooler implications. You can use revelation on a pack of mutas to ensure your blink stalkers are always in position - effectively denying harass for an entire minute.
Or, if you only catch a few mutas, the zerg can swing these around from a different direction to falsely lead your defensive stalkers to the wrong area...
All kinds of awesomeness. I hope they do it right.
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On September 07 2012 02:36 normalman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 02:09 wcr.4fun wrote:On September 07 2012 01:26 GeNeSiDe wrote: Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!! if you're mentally disabled i guess they can be fun? Or could you explain me what's fun about using entom, pre-ordain or a scan? Wow pretty vicious calling someone mentally disabled because they said that part of a computer game looks fun... I guess you just call anyone and everyone mentally disabled for pretty much no reason? Of course in itself, these kinds of abilities won't be fun but it gives detection via stargate, so another counter to DT opening stargate without robo as viable in PvP perhaps? This is one in maybe 100 different effects which they will have which could improve the fun of the game... I don't think you have to be mentally disabled to see that.
It was a figure of speech. I didn't call him mentally disabled, it was said in a jokingly manner.
I forgot for a moment that this is teamliquid, my apologies. I'm an avid poster on another forum where a lot more is allowed in terms of 'negative' language.
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On September 07 2012 06:57 Kal_rA wrote: .... toss already has an observer. That coupled with canons is really all they need. This is including the fact that theres no observatory like there was in bw so its a shorter tech tree. Don't really see a need to double dip so hard.
Absolutely agree with this.
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I think Reveal on enemy works just so you can target them easier with tempest is going to be a waste. Just right click spam them after using Preordain on the "town hall" building and you can shoot them for 3 times as long and both cost only 50 energy.
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On September 07 2012 06:57 Kal_rA wrote: .... toss already has an observer. That coupled with canons is really all they need. This is including the fact that theres no observatory like there was in bw so its a shorter tech tree. Don't really see a need to double dip so hard.
In wol Terrans have 4 ways to detect : scans, turrets, ravens, and emp. Zergs have 3 ways to detect : spores, overseer and fungal growth. Protoss only have 2 : canons and observers. You can cancel a nuke by placing a forcefield on a cloaked ghost but it doesn't reveal it and nobody knows that trick anyways. The oracle detection is just there to put Protoss on par and give them an emergency reveal like emp and fungal.
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I get that the 2 vision spells are different but they are still similar enough that I hope blizzard just combines the two into one spell and gives the oracle a new spell, preferably something that doesn't make it a useless 200 gas paperweight when it comes to combat.
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Protoss go Robo for the Observer sure, but also because of the Immortal and Colossi.
Phoenix use is more situational and, these days, is more used in PvP than in the other P matchups. The VR has been nerfed to near uselessness, and the Tempest (to be fair and despite my personal feelings on the unit) remains a work in progress.
In other words, if Blizzard wants to encourage more SG play from Protoss, they'll need more than the Oracle.
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On September 07 2012 09:50 chuky500 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 06:57 Kal_rA wrote: .... toss already has an observer. That coupled with canons is really all they need. This is including the fact that theres no observatory like there was in bw so its a shorter tech tree. Don't really see a need to double dip so hard. In wol Terrans have 4 ways to detect : scans, turrets, ravens, and emp. Zergs have 3 ways to detect : spores, overseer and fungal growth. Protoss only have 2 : canons and observers. You can cancel a nuke by placing a forcefield on a cloaked ghost but it doesn't reveal it and nobody knows that trick anyways. The oracle detection is just there to put Protoss on par and give them an emergency reveal like emp and fungal.
Observers, in regards to detection, are superior to Ravens and Overseers. This is because they detect and they cloaked. It's already on par.
Your post reeks of bias.
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Do you people understand the point of expansions? Yes, strictly speaking Protoss doesn't need another detection, and Terran doesn't need a mech marauder or more options for territory control, and Zerg doesn't need more units spawning units. Hell, the only thing Protoss currently need is some luck with good archon toilets in late game PvZ.
Really, there are 20 other threads with all that negativity towards new HotS units. I was hoping we could discuss the practical use here, but you had to drown this thread in whine as well.
All right, let's do it your way
Observers, in regards to detection, are superior to Ravens and Overseers. This is because they detect and they cloaked. It's already on par.
Your post reeks of bias.
Terran: - static detection costs 75 minerals, it's easy to spam turrets in base or while moving across the map - 3 options of mobile detection - having mobile detection options at Barracks, Starport and your first frakin' building means you are not forced into any tech path
Protoss: - static detection costs 150 minerals - 1 option of mobile detection - there is not a single one safe PvT or PvP opening that doesn't involve getting a robo
Now let's talk about bias, eh? Yes, observer is superior to raven and overseer, but don't tell me that observer is superior to scan.
Again, protoss doesn't need a detection option in stargate, just like terran doesn't need a viable mech option. God forbid Blizzard tries to add a little bit of build divercity into this game
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On September 07 2012 02:09 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:26 GeNeSiDe wrote: Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!! if you're mentally disabled i guess they can be fun? Or could you explain me what's fun about using entom, pre-ordain or a scan? User was warned for this post
That escalated quickly
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David Kim's comments on Oracle:
Revelation is mostly there so that players don't have to tech Robotics Facility every game. And the difference between the soft detection that's based off of energy vs. perma detection of the Observer seems different enough?
But for Preordain scouting an enemy base vs. an observer doing it vs. tagging some units with Revelation that does it etc. does seem to overlap quite a bit. We will definitely discuss internally to see if there is a better solution. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6489980368?page=2#31
So - Even if you think Protoss doesn't need stargate detection, Blizzard are determined to keep it. Deal with it. - Assumption of Preordain/Revelation being merged in the future seems correct. - Still no word on Entomb effectiveness.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
Can Preordain be casted on floating buildings?
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On September 07 2012 17:46 Alexj wrote:David Kim's comments on Oracle: Show nested quote +Revelation is mostly there so that players don't have to tech Robotics Facility every game. And the difference between the soft detection that's based off of energy vs. perma detection of the Observer seems different enough?
But for Preordain scouting an enemy base vs. an observer doing it vs. tagging some units with Revelation that does it etc. does seem to overlap quite a bit. We will definitely discuss internally to see if there is a better solution. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6489980368?page=2#31So - Even if you think Protoss doesn't need stargate detection, Blizzard are determined to keep it. Deal with it. - Assumption of Preordain/Revelation being merged in the future seems correct. - Still no word on Entomb effectiveness.
Yeah, from a game design perspective, it's imperative that the Stargate have detection and economical that the two abilities converge into one. I think the Oracle will have 3 abilities, 1) Harassment 2) Detection 3) Army Support so you can summise 1) Entomb 2) Revelation and 3) Cloaking Field (researched from Fleet Beacon). Judging from precedents, the Observer is a flying cloaked unit that detects other cloaked units without energy, where the Oracle could be a flying unit that cloaks other units and detects cloaked units with energy and has Entomb to fill an additional harassment roll. Essentially, the perogatives are to permit Protoss to directly tech to Stargate vs. PvP and PvT, detection, and provide another economic harassment option, Entomb, while replacing some of the functionality from the lost WoL units, Cloaking Field.
I honestly think the Oracle is the only HOTS unit that actually addresses game balance/design issues at this point, because making Starport openings viable vs Terran is pivotal in differentiating the matchup. Likewise Warhound, Battle Hellion and Widow Mine are trying to do the same for Terrans by making Factory openings viable vs Protoss, but currently the Warhound is completely OP, the Battle Hellion isn't good enough vs Zealots and too good vs. Zerglings and the Widow Mine conficts with the design elements of the Burrowed Baneling. The new Zerg units are in a pretty good place, altho' they sorely need to move the Hydralisk speed upgrade to Lair.
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Revelation is a nice spell and I do think Protoss need this. It will give Protoss a flexible way to get detection even when choose to go Stargate tech. However the preordain spell is not needed. If this spell is cast it is potentially the same as having legit map hack. Once it is cast the player on receiving end can do one of the two thing:
1) ignore it 2) kill his own building to stop granting vision to Protoss
Basically there is not much the receiving player can do. You can do this with a obs, but you always can kill the obs, you can't stop a spell. I do not like Preordain.
-edit-
I agree with what MoonCriket said The oracle need
1) Harassment 2) Detection 3) Army Support
remove Preordain and give it some sort of army support. Maybe Stasis Field? Or a weaker version like cyclone from War3. Remove one ground unit from play for a temporarily time. Somewhere between the two spell.
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On September 07 2012 17:46 Alexj wrote:David Kim's comments on Oracle: Show nested quote +Revelation is mostly there so that players don't have to tech Robotics Facility every game. And the difference between the soft detection that's based off of energy vs. perma detection of the Observer seems different enough?
But for Preordain scouting an enemy base vs. an observer doing it vs. tagging some units with Revelation that does it etc. does seem to overlap quite a bit. We will definitely discuss internally to see if there is a better solution. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6489980368?page=2#31So - Even if you think Protoss doesn't need stargate detection, Blizzard are determined to keep it. Deal with it. - Assumption of Preordain/Revelation being merged in the future seems correct. - Still no word on Entomb effectiveness.
What if the Mothership Core purifier gives it detection?
That way the Oracle doesn't need to have spells that deal with detection at all.
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I saw White-Ra use Preordain on an enemy Hatchery then snipe it with Tempests at 22 range. It took a long time because the player was Transfusing with Queens but it worked.
On another note, I could imagine Revelation coming in handy dealing with Swarm Hosts. Instead of attacking the Locusts, use Revelation on the Swarm Hosts then use your Tempests to snipe them at 22 range. Even if you don't completely kill the Swarm Hosts, you might be able to force the Zerg to unburrow them and retreat. If the Zerg decides to move in to kill your Tempests, just use Mothership Core Recall and get them out of harm's way.
Theory-crafting is fun.
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Revelation is actually really good. The ability to see enemy deathball movement for 30 seconds is absolutely essential in some scenarios and sometimes observers just aren't an option (hydra+overseer, terran+scan or robo used for colossus/immortal). 50 energy is completely reasonable (unlike entombs cost). The only thing needed is a bit more shield (think warp prism) on the oracle and we're good to go.
Unconvinced players should go watch Real's stream.
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On September 11 2012 12:16 YoungNV wrote: I saw White-Ra use Preordain on an enemy Hatchery then snipe it with Tempests at 22 range. It took a long time because the player was Transfusing with Queens but it worked.
On another note, I could imagine Revelation coming in handy dealing with Swarm Hosts. Instead of attacking the Locusts, use Revelation on the Swarm Hosts then use your Tempests to snipe them at 22 range. Even if you don't completely kill the Swarm Hosts, you might be able to force the Zerg to unburrow them and retreat. If the Zerg decides to move in to kill your Tempests, just use Mothership Core Recall and get them out of harm's way.
Theory-crafting is fun.
I don't know. The only thing I see is that WhiteRa and other pros have stopped using new protoss units completely
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On September 07 2012 02:09 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:26 GeNeSiDe wrote: Nice write-up. Some of these new abilities are wonky but I think they will be a lot of fun!!! if you're mentally disabled i guess they can be fun? Or could you explain me what's fun about using entom, pre-ordain or a scan? User was warned for this post
Do you think its possible to measure person's IQ by how much of a good spell they think Entomb is?
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they should merge the two vision spell, and replace predorian with a new spell that support your army
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I love oracles they look so cool and i think they might be able to help alot in the mid/late game stages of pvt and maybe pvz!!!!!!
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What would happen if the Oracle´s Entomb ability did not encases minerals but Entomb workers NOT mining and NOT carrying minerals or gas...?
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What would happen if the Oracle´s Entomb ability did not encases minerals but Entomb workers NOT mining and NOT carrying minerals or gas...?
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