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On November 03 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:
Reavers replacing colossi would be good. Reavers wouldn't be countered by vikings, so in order to shut down the harass, Terran would need to make units that are suboptimal in combat. SC2 Terran would still have an easier time getting a viking than SC1 Terran has getting a wraith, but it'd be a step forward for Protoss harass.
It would probably also be imbalanced as hell because splash is way stronger in SC2 than it is in SC1.
Lol, I would like to see you whine when you lose your warp prism with two reavers in it to vikings. Getting an old unit back will not solve the harassment problem that you feel, which would also be countered by vikings if we are brute, you got like 4 vikings 2 at the base 2 at the nat ( assuming early game harass), and you are can not harass if you do not want to risk your warp prism and your reavers. It will not work as in sc1.
Colossus is much better at forcing suboptimal units like vikings, which does not provide any real help in the ground battle.
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On November 03 2011 00:34 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 00:00 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 23:00 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/ HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar. Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that. Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait. Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:
Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that.
Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches.
And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos.
Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests.
Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals... Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta. However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air? So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not. Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural. The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit. Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss). NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable.
Yeah, and if you engage a marine ball with just medivacs, they'll all die without killing a thing. Medivac not a core combat unit!
I think you're just being contrary for the sake of it right now. The fact that Mutas lose cost-for-cost to Marines when a-moved into each other, does not mean they're not core units. I mean, every single TvZ, you see Terran push with Marines and Tanks, and Zerg delay, try to snipe Tanks and wayward marines, and then finally engage with lings/blings, with Mutas following them. In an ideal world, the Mutas clean up, and then go back to harassing.
The same isn't true about Phoenix, for instance. It really doesn't matter how much you harass him, if you can't hold the counter.
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On November 03 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 00:34 Big J wrote:On November 03 2011 00:00 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 23:00 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/ HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar. Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that. Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait. Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:
Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that.
Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches.
And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos.
Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests.
Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals... Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta. However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air? So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not. Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural. The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit. Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss). NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable. Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes. Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix.
That's not what I said. But the value mutas have in combat comes completly from them being fast air units.
True that mutas are way better vs marines than phoenix and therefore it is just useless to compare Phoenix/zealot to muta/ling when fighting against tank/marine.
But when I know that a push is coming, I'm not going to make more mutas. I'm morphing more banelings. I'm building more zerglings. Mutas main use lies in between combats.
Phoenix in PvZ are really compareable to mutalisks to this (of course in lower numbers in earlier phases of the game):
You do the initial harass, you force anti air, you slow him down, you prevent him from going out on the map.
The difference now is, that no matter how many phoenixes you have, you can't kill spores, so there comes the point, when Zerg can just gather all hydralisks and attack and Protoss can't counterattack with his phoenix.
Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen.
Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base.
Wouldn't that be a good use of Protoss air openings, unlike now where you see the push out, you have plenty of time to fly home with your phoenix, but you just do it right away, because there is no use in keeping them in his base anymore.
Of course just flat out killing 20drones early with a ninja-reaper-with-splashdamage might set you up in the same situation, but how do you guarantee that it does kill only 20drones? And how do you argue, that it is a good unit that is playable through all game, if it's only viability should be to make Protoss come out on even economy with zerg/terran in the midgame...
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On November 03 2011 00:55 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 00:34 Big J wrote:On November 03 2011 00:00 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 23:00 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/ HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar. Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that. Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait. Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:
Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that.
Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches.
And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos.
Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests.
Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals... Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta. However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air? So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not. Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural. The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit. Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss). NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable. Yeah, and if you engage a marine ball with just medivacs, they'll all die without killing a thing. Medivac not a core combat unit! I think you're just being contrary for the sake of it right now. The fact that Mutas lose cost-for-cost to Marines when a-moved into each other, does not mean they're not core units. I mean, every single TvZ, you see Terran push with Marines and Tanks, and Zerg delay, try to snipe Tanks and wayward marines, and then finally engage with lings/blings, with Mutas following them. In an ideal world, the Mutas clean up, and then go back to harassing. The same isn't true about Phoenix, for instance. It really doesn't matter how much you harass him, if you can't hold the counter.
Phoenixes are seen as good tank counter. You just don't see tanks vs Protoss...
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wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
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a dedicated harras based on energy does not work, because of 2 things.
1- the oracle is a expensive harras based on energy, when it runs out of energy, it represent no treat to the enemy so, he can leave his base and kill you with a counter attack, your stargate+oracle is not going to help defend this...
a harras unit that IS NOT based on energy, can always come back and so, they can pin the enemy in his base... the oracle can't do this, it is a 100% dedicated harras, that can not pin the oponent to his base and can not help you defend the counter attack.
2- you can always just ignore the oracle and go fucking kill your oponent, the harras potential of oracle is limited to it energy, so if you leave it in your base, it has a limited amount of damage it can do, while if you leave a MMM drop free in your base and go counter attack, the damage it can do is almost limitless...
PS: they can always make it OP, so it will work anyways...
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On November 03 2011 00:52 Elldar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 00:21 kcdc wrote:
Reavers replacing colossi would be good. Reavers wouldn't be countered by vikings, so in order to shut down the harass, Terran would need to make units that are suboptimal in combat. SC2 Terran would still have an easier time getting a viking than SC1 Terran has getting a wraith, but it'd be a step forward for Protoss harass.
It would probably also be imbalanced as hell because splash is way stronger in SC2 than it is in SC1. Lol, I would like to see you whine when you lose your warp prism with two reavers in it to vikings. Getting an old unit back will not solve the harassment problem that you feel, which would also be countered by vikings if we are brute, you got like 4 vikings 2 at the base 2 at the nat ( assuming early game harass), and you are can not harass if you do not want to risk your warp prism and your reavers. It will not work as in sc1. Colossus is much better at forcing suboptimal units like vikings, which does not provide any real help in the ground battle.
If he builds 4 vikings you don't drop his bases but you push his front with your reavers, simple as that and he's probably in deep shit after spending that money on those vikings.
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote:
wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
You mean just like people are dropping sentries/templars and doing the same thing right now? Oh no they don't because it's not actually a practical thing to do.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 02 2011 17:12 ArcticRaven wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 14:25 kcdc wrote:Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings. Ooooh.... I don't think so. The way they presented it, it's mostly a flying Thor, and It's gonna get kited by vikings and out-dpsed by corrupters (which are going to counter it as they do every capital ship).
Yeah I need to agree, the tempest is just a BIG slow, flying thor. A unit they decided didn't warrant remaining in the game as a basic unit and is now going to be the new mothership. I also don't think we need "hero" units in this game either.
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On November 03 2011 01:15 rpgalon wrote:
a dedicated harras based on energy does not work, because of 2 things.
1- the oracle is a expensive harras based on energy, when it runs out of energy, it represent no treat to the enemy so, he can leave his base and kill you with a counter attack, your stargate+oracle is not going to help defend this...
a harras unit that IS NOT based on energy, can always come back and so, they can pin the enemy in his base... the oracle can't do this, it is a 100% dedicated harras, that can not pin the oponent to his base and can not help you defend the counter attack.
2- you can always just ignore the oracle and go fucking kill your oponent, the harras potential of oracle is limited to it energy, so if you leave it in your base, it has a limited amount of damage it can do, while if you leave a MMM drop free in your base and go counter attack, the damage it can do is almost limitless...
PS: they can always make it OP, so it will work anyways...
1) yeah, like those burrowed infestors totally don't work, once they run out of energy. It's not like they can just pop out infested terrans in a minute again... Totally not..
2) yeah, because investing into one oracle, leaves a Protoss completly without units. His Zealots will suddenly not attack anymore and his stalkers will try to chase butterflies around, rather than shoot at the uncooridinated "timing" you just invented, because you saw an oracle
PS: They can always make it so, that it is balanced. But I guess you're one of the kind: "marines are imba, because they are better than even (cost and supply) amounts of zerglings and zealots"
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On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote:
wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
Have you tried it out? WhiteRa was at Blizzcon and he did, and he was pretty critical of the Oracle on his stream.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:On November 03 2011 00:34 Big J wrote:On November 03 2011 00:00 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 23:00 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/ HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar. Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that. Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait. Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:
Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that.
Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches.
And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos.
Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests.
Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals... Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta. However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air? So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not. Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural. The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit. Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss). NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable. Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes. Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix. That's not what I said. But the value mutas have in combat comes completly from them being fast air units. True that mutas are way better vs marines than phoenix and therefore it is just useless to compare Phoenix/zealot to muta/ling when fighting against tank/marine. But when I know that a push is coming, I'm not going to make more mutas. I'm morphing more banelings. I'm building more zerglings. Mutas main use lies in between combats. Phoenix in PvZ are really compareable to mutalisks to this (of course in lower numbers in earlier phases of the game): You do the initial harass, you force anti air, you slow him down, you prevent him from going out on the map. The difference now is, that no matter how many phoenixes you have, you can't kill spores, so there comes the point, when Zerg can just gather all hydralisks and attack and Protoss can't counterattack with his phoenix. Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen. Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base. Wouldn't that be a good use of Protoss air openings, unlike now where you see the push out, you have plenty of time to fly home with your phoenix, but you just do it right away, because there is no use in keeping them in his base anymore. Of course just flat out killing 20drones early with a ninja-reaper-with-splashdamage might set you up in the same situation, but how do you guarantee that it does kill only 20drones? And how do you argue, that it is a good unit that is playable through all game, if it's only viability should be to make Protoss come out on even economy with zerg/terran in the midgame...
No man. In ZvP Mutas can be a good combat unit since stalkers do so poorly against them. If you harass enough and slow down the protoss economy then you can keep making mutas to which Protoss doesn't really have a reliable answer to in the lategame if you were able to make a lot of mutalisks.
In ZvT Mutas are used to cut off reinforcements and also to help in the actual combat. While the marines run from the ling/baneling the mutas are getting potshots in and sniping tanks as the marines start to leave them behind.
In PvX theres no unit which can really force anti air since sure pheonixes can do damage but they have limited energy and are expensive. If I make 10 pheonixes I can kill lots of workers but this is to the detriment of my main army. I will have little AoE which toss really needs against Terran bioballs. Instead of AoE I'll have a zealot based army which is melee and much slower than zerglings and can be kited. So unlike lings which are fast and can get free hits in on the terran army most of the time, marine marauder will slow and kite zealots for most of the time the zealots try to engage.
Pheonixes can't effectively or reliably hold a push since its energy based and they can't reliably or effectively harass similarly due to energy requirements. Lifting workers can only go on for so long and once you run out of energy you can't use them to do much at all.
They do ok in PvZ because Zerg, without Mules feels the hit of each lost worker more in the long run and hydralisks which respond to pheonixes don't do as well against chargelots as marine marauder does. This is why we sometimes see 2 stargate pheonix play into chargelot with some archons in PvZ but never in PvT.
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On November 02 2011 17:53 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote:On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time. So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles... Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria...
Marines.
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On November 02 2011 14:19 Gobbles wrote:
Why don't you wait until the units are released to complain. This is just a big theorycraft pile of garbage until then. 1 thread was enough, please at least try to contain your stupidity to the single thread so the rest of us can sift through less crap on TL.
User was warned for this post
We - the protoss players - already did that with the mothership and the colossus, and it was to late to complain, once the Game was out. Nothing could be done at that time, except subtle number changes. Thats why we are complaining early this time around, so Blizz has enough time to do something about dumb design.
I agree with the OP. What protoss need isnt another one dimensional, costly unit. What we need is a fast, disposable gateway unit. ~3 movement speed, less than 100 total hp, maybe 75/25 mins gas and bonus to light.
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Canada13407 Posts
On November 03 2011 01:43 bovineblitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 17:53 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote:On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time. So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles... Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria... Marines.
Marauders.
Roaches in Overlords.
Hydralisks in Overlords.
Anything Ranged that can be dropped and is generally used in the game anyway and has a decent DPS fulfills this role prior to late game.
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On November 03 2011 01:43 bovineblitz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2011 17:53 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote:On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time. So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles... Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria... Marines.
Too bad that you can drop marines without medivac.
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On November 03 2011 01:36 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 01:03 Big J wrote:On November 03 2011 00:41 kcdc wrote:On November 03 2011 00:34 Big J wrote:On November 03 2011 00:00 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 23:00 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:On November 02 2011 21:15 Toadvine wrote:In any case, if HotS is supposed to add units that shore up weaknesses of the races, then the Terran and Zerg units do make sense in this context. Terran units serve to make mech a viable playstyle in all matchups, for example by giving Hellions the option to act as proper meatshields for Tanks. Zerg units allow them to break entrenched positions more easily, and generally achieve pressure without sacrificing tons of units. In light of this, the new Protoss units are a total joke, they don't solve Protoss problems at all. Well, you can Replicate a Siege Tank and maybe defend 1/1/1, so that's nice I suppose. :/ HotS is not supposed to do anything but sell well for blizzard. If you argue that further, it means that it should be interesting to buy it, so the game should be fun to play and balanced on high level of play. What the game doesn't need, is 3races that all have no weaknesses and play similar. Races in SC2 aren't supposed to have no weaknesses and play similar. But they also aren't supposed to be WoW classes that are only good at one thing, and have glaring holes in their arsenal. The weaknesses we do want are the ones that produce interesting gameplay. Zerg not being able to break a turtling Terran even when at a huge advantage was a bad weakness that led to stupid games. An entire Terran tech tree being unusuable in TvP was a bad weakness, so units were added to help that. Protoss had no effective means to harass in the early to mid game, and were extremely reliant on expensive tech to keep them on par with core Zerg/Terran units. This is a bad weakness, because it produces boring gameplay, where the Protoss sits in his base with no map control and just defends and masses up. So, units were added to help this... oh wait. Stargate openings vs Zerg? It's just that it seems like this techpath isn't viable further. That's why they try to make it more viable. Also: why should they give Protoss a pure early(gateway) harassment unit, that is a) hard to balance, due to warp gates b) overlapping with the dt in later stages of the game c) something terrans have; zergs partly have (zerglings harass, but they are not a unit purely designed to do so); so giving it to protoss would just mean that they "want each race to open with hellions vs zerg". It's a unique thing to have hellion openings as terran. Don't let them ruin the game with each race having the same basic strategy, just with different units. d) not necessary if they already make a spell like mass recall, which will basically make your whole army a big harrassment composition On November 02 2011 22:38 Toadvine wrote:On November 02 2011 21:54 Big J wrote:
Zergs and Terrans also don't just get units that counteract weaknesses that are intended to be there. But Mech was intended to be playable in TvP, giving them battlehellions and warhounds might fix that.
Mass Thor in ZvT wasn't intended to be playable, that's why the Thor has to go and make space for a unit that is worse vs roaches.
And Zerg was intended to be one of the more aggressive races. In the alpha and beta days when people weren't that great at that game, the general opinion was that zerg was THE pressuring race, running all over the place and denying expos.
Protoss was intended to work well on Stargate tech, that's why they are trying to fix that with oracles and tempests.
Also, Protoss ground tech gets HUGE buffs through the mass recall. Like artosis said: In the current state of the game, he would ALWAYS build an extra Nexus just to have ONE mass recall, because then he could just be out on the map and harass the hell out of everything, for 400 extra minerals... Recall is actually one great thing about HotS, and is way better than our new units combined. I'd trade all of them just to keep the current Recall in the game, which will no doubt get nerfed hard at some point in the beta. However, the point about Stargate tech is retarded. The problem with Stargate was that the units weren't very good in direct army vs army engagements. So, this problem is solved by adding a unit that doesn't attack, and a unit that is only good vs mass air? So in SC:BW Protoss players only went corsairs because they were so good vs hydralisks? No. Zerg players go for mass muta play vs terran because they are obviously soooo strong vs marines the main unit in standard biomech compositions? HELL NO! The problem isn't that Stargate tech is bad in combats. The problem is that Stargate tech and the complete airfleet that a Protoss invested into becomes useless in the midgame. (unlike corsairs in SC:BW) An Oracle would definatly help, because an oracle does never get useless, assuming that it doesn't die from 3spore shots. A Tempest is at least a try to give Protoss a flaggship that is playable. The carrier is not. So it has to go. The Tempest is at least a unit that will be fooled around with anew, before people decide if it is viable or not. Sorry, but at this point, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what you're talking about at all. The exact problem with Stargate, in both PvT and PvZ, is that if it doesn't do enough damage, it is simply awful for its cost in a direct army vs army fight. Do you know what good Zergs do when they see a Stargate opening? They spore up, make tons of drones to saturate 3 bases, and then just make a shitload of roaches and lings to deny the Protoss third. Do you know what Terrans do? They expand, go up to 5-6 raxes, and then push with stim/combat shields done, and kill the Protoss natural. The problem is very clearly that the units aren't good enough. And you even bring up Mutalisks, the perfect example of how this kind of unit can work well. Mutas have amazing combat utility compared to Phoenix/VRs. In fact, Zerg players often continue massing Mutas throughout the whole game, just because of how good they are as a core army unit. Stargate openings being standard in BW is kind of a moot point, since SC2 Protoss is way different from BW Protoss (in fact, SC2 Terran is more similar to BW Protoss). NO. Stargate units not being core combat units is not the problem. Making them core combat units COULD BE a solution. Making them able to harass an opponent, pin him in his base and delay pushes, a much more interesting one. I play zerg at masters league, and I can tell you that if you go Mutalisks as "core army unit", you are fucked. Play a game with zerg and engage a Marineball with mutalisks... Engage a blinkstalker ball with mutalisks. Engage mass thor with mutalisks. THOSE are combat units (and the blinkstalker is already a harass/combat hybrid). You won't beat them. And it's the same with stargate units. You don't ENGAGE even armies of marines or hydralisks with them. You try to do damage in his base and pin him there. The fact simply is, that it is easy to deny this kind of harass most of the time. If the Oracle can make the harass continue, we will see PvZ with Protoss having mapcontrol... THAT would be a good way to improve Protoss gameplay. But I guess some players would rather just have more options to sacrifice units on mineral lines, then to improve good concepts that are out there right now, but too wacky to be called stable. Let's not pretend that mutas don't have combat value. Mutas aren't bad against stalkers (when factoring in the resource advantage Z gets due to his map control) and they're an essential component for defending marine-tank pushes. Mutas, like banshees, are not strong for cost in combat, but they're a lot better than phoenixes. The oracle, as proposed, is way behind the phoenix. That's not what I said. But the value mutas have in combat comes completly from them being fast air units. True that mutas are way better vs marines than phoenix and therefore it is just useless to compare Phoenix/zealot to muta/ling when fighting against tank/marine. But when I know that a push is coming, I'm not going to make more mutas. I'm morphing more banelings. I'm building more zerglings. Mutas main use lies in between combats. Phoenix in PvZ are really compareable to mutalisks to this (of course in lower numbers in earlier phases of the game): You do the initial harass, you force anti air, you slow him down, you prevent him from going out on the map. The difference now is, that no matter how many phoenixes you have, you can't kill spores, so there comes the point, when Zerg can just gather all hydralisks and attack and Protoss can't counterattack with his phoenix. Now imagine if the moment a zerg gathers his hydralisks, 1-2oracles fly into the mineral line, deactivate all spores and the phoenix kill all the drones and the queen. Then they fly home and help defending vs hydralisks. Armies get traded, but unlike in WOL, this isn't terrible for Protoss, because he is taking a third and zerg only has 2mining bases and even those get harrassed by entombs, which maybe don't pay for the oracle immidiatly, but they do good damage to a zerg that has no units (he just traded) and is redroning his base. Wouldn't that be a good use of Protoss air openings, unlike now where you see the push out, you have plenty of time to fly home with your phoenix, but you just do it right away, because there is no use in keeping them in his base anymore. Of course just flat out killing 20drones early with a ninja-reaper-with-splashdamage might set you up in the same situation, but how do you guarantee that it does kill only 20drones? And how do you argue, that it is a good unit that is playable through all game, if it's only viability should be to make Protoss come out on even economy with zerg/terran in the midgame... No man. In ZvP Mutas can be a good combat unit since stalkers do so poorly against them. If you harass enough and slow down the protoss economy then you can keep making mutas to which Protoss doesn't really have a reliable answer to in the lategame if you were able to make a lot of mutalisks. In ZvT Mutas are used to cut off reinforcements and also to help in the actual combat. While the marines run from the ling/baneling the mutas are getting potshots in and sniping tanks as the marines start to leave them behind. In PvX theres no unit which can really force anti air since sure pheonixes can do damage but they have limited energy and are expensive. If I make 10 pheonixes I can kill lots of workers but this is to the detriment of my main army. I will have little AoE which toss really needs against Terran bioballs. Instead of AoE I'll have a zealot based army which is melee and much slower than zerglings and can be kited. So unlike lings which are fast and can get free hits in on the terran army most of the time, marine marauder will slow and kite zealots for most of the time the zealots try to engage. Pheonixes can't effectively or reliably hold a push since its energy based and they can't reliably or effectively harass similarly due to energy requirements. Lifting workers can only go on for so long and once you run out of energy you can't use them to do much at all. They do ok in PvZ because Zerg, without Mules feels the hit of each lost worker more in the long run and hydralisks which respond to pheonixes don't do as well against chargelots as marine marauder does. This is why we sometimes see 2 stargate pheonix play into chargelot with some archons in PvZ but never in PvT.
Mutas can fight Stalkerballs when one of those things happen:
-) Zerg got really heavily ahead in the eco, so he has a mutalisk per stalker
-) Zerg fights them with support (mainly zerglings, which are extreme hardcounters to stalkers, so smaller amounts like half the amount of mutas in zerglings are already BRUTAL)
And the stuff with the reinforcements etc: that's exactly what I meant. They get their strength from them being air.
Phoenix could do that as well, the difference is that Protoss don't fight static armies ever. Terran goes bio and Zerg is a big swarm moving around all the time. You can't do this stuff zergs do with mutalisks against tank armies, simply because protoss opponents don't play such static armies.
The reason phoenix are reduntant in PvT combats is that Terran doesn't build the units they counter (hellions, tanks, banshees) anyways, or they are heavily protected by marines all the time (marauder, medivac, ghost? - never seen that).
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On November 03 2011 01:51 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 01:43 bovineblitz wrote:On November 02 2011 17:53 Thrombozyt wrote:On November 02 2011 13:58 kcdc wrote:On November 02 2011 13:50 Vindicare605 wrote:
Without getting in to why I like the Oracle. Can I ask you something?
Why is the Dark Templar not included in your list of Protoss Harassment options? It should be. But it's pretty simple: DT's are good if your opponent isn't prepared. Otherwise, they're expensive archons. Either way, they're not consistent harass options because your opponent will certainly be prepared the second time. So I get it right? You want a unit that pulls off harass successfully even if the opponent is prepared, that demands a response from the opponent that is out of the way of his usual combat tech and that is located conveniently in your tech path so you don't have to specifically invest in harassment? Oh.. and it should also have some utility in other roles... Tell me one unit that fullfils those criteria... Marines. Too bad that you can drop marines without medivac.
Okay then.
Banshees.
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All Protoss "needs" is speed zealots back instead of stupid charge... having faster/more mobile units like from BW would fix so much shit imo. In other words, more than a .5 speed buff.
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On November 03 2011 01:27 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2011 01:15 rpgalon wrote:
a dedicated harras based on energy does not work, because of 2 things.
1- the oracle is a expensive harras based on energy, when it runs out of energy, it represent no treat to the enemy so, he can leave his base and kill you with a counter attack, your stargate+oracle is not going to help defend this...
a harras unit that IS NOT based on energy, can always come back and so, they can pin the enemy in his base... the oracle can't do this, it is a 100% dedicated harras, that can not pin the oponent to his base and can not help you defend the counter attack.
2- you can always just ignore the oracle and go fucking kill your oponent, the harras potential of oracle is limited to it energy, so if you leave it in your base, it has a limited amount of damage it can do, while if you leave a MMM drop free in your base and go counter attack, the damage it can do is almost limitless...
PS: they can always make it OP, so it will work anyways... 1) yeah, like those burrowed infestors totally don't work, once they run out of energy. It's not like they can just pop out infested terrans in a minute again... Totally not.. 2) yeah, because investing into one oracle, leaves a Protoss completly without units. His Zealots will suddenly not attack anymore and his stalkers will try to chase butterflies around, rather than shoot at the uncooridinated "timing" you just invented, because you saw an oracle PS: They can always make it so, that it is balanced. But I guess you're one of the kind: "marines are imba, because they are better than even (cost and supply) amounts of zerglings and zealots"
1- you are comparing a 100/150/2 caster unit, with a 150/200/4 100% harras that can't help your army in anything.
the infestor is not a 100% harras unit, and no, once they run out of energy, they do nothing, and are just awaiting to be killed... seriously... what the hell are you trying to say?
2- stargate is a very expensive tech and the oracle is a very expensive unit... you don't need to attack, it is just the fact that you know you are safe for the next ~88s.
my point is that, a harras based on energy, has a very weak "stay on your base" force, and so it can't be a good 100% dedicated harras.
the oracle is a very predictable unit, the enemy knows exacly how many units they need to keep on the base, and where they need to keep then, to shut down the harras.
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On November 03 2011 02:00 bovineblitz wrote:
Okay then.
Banshees.
you have to invest 200/200 in cloak, otherwise stalkers shut it down very easily.
observer + stalker are maybe a bit off if you want to get ht/blink/dt, but if you are agressive enough with your phoenix you can force a cloak near the terran base which also shuts down banshees see grubby vs happy on daybreak.
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EPT
