On November 03 2011 05:20 Dommk wrote: People just need to stop obsessing over the numbers. There will be plenty of time to fine tune that come the actual beta.
The problem is that for those shields on the minerals, terran DPS in the mid game is so high that the shields will go down instantly vs terran, slower vs zerg, and much slower vs protoss. Balancing that is going to be a little strange due to the differences in DPS in the early-mid
What if they just buffed protoss's current harass techniques?
1) For example, a really subtle change would be something like allowing sentries to take up 1/8 of a warp prism instead of 1/4. This means that you could fit 4 sentries and 2 zealots, or 2 stalkers, or 2 high templar, or 2 DT, or 6 sentries and a DT, or whatever so you could actually do some damage with those sentries and their forcefields.
That would let you do a similar thing to the oracle (delay mining) while also doing some damage and forcing them to pull their army. And it would be a little more than a light tickling.
2) Another change could involve changing the DT cost to require more minerals (like 225 or 200) and less gas (100 or 75) providing more difference between them and HTs in terms of archons (DTs would be overall cheaper for archons). The dark shrine already costs 250 minerals and takes forever to build: thats a huge up-front cost and makes it easy to scout. But imagine if protoss could then make individual DTs for less gas.
This could also involve making the shrine less expensive/take less time to build, but making DTs only build from gateways or something, or maybe just move more slowly, or have less damage so the enemy gets a warning.
3) Allowing massive units to take up only 3/4 of a dropship so that you could combine the colossus with some actual support (like a sentry) to make retreat from the splash more difficult for the enemy workers.
Read the full comment. Also Marauders aren't tank units. They have 125life for 100/25 costs. Stimmed they have 105life. Zealots have 150life, 50 in shields and cost 100 (also lesser passive costs, because they don't require tech labs).
Marauder are tank units with medivac support, which are no baracks unit. Also Marines and Marauders are no harass units. Marine/Marauder drops are, which again requires a Starport.
I was hoping you would see how ignorant your argument is by by pointing out something in such a ridiculous fashion.
EDIT: I'm just going to make this simple.
Marines, Marauders, Stim, Combat Shield, Concussive Shell, Ghosts and Reapers are all T 1.5 Tech, but Templars, Archons, DT's, Blink and Charge are not. Terrans OFTEN tech safely to Starport tech on a SINGLE base where as Protoss can barely even tech to Templars on two.
Hell, by the time Protoss actually manages to get everything needed it is usually 20mins+ into the game on 3/4 bases.
Different races are different and you cannot simply compare something that comes out of a barracks to something that comes out of a Gateway because Protoss and Terran ARE NOT THE SAME
And when was the last time you have seen a Protoss win without Colossus? The unit is a necessity
We are talking about starcraft and not C&C, try again with a better argument. In C&C T3>T2>T1. In Starcraft not. All those Tier 1,2,3 arguments are just simplyfications to make talking about implied tech (costs) and time to get the tech out simpler. Example: + Show Spoiler +
150/0+150/100+150/100+50/25+150/150 = 650/375 are the passive costs for a battlecruiser. 250/0+150/100+150/100+250/200+100/150 = 900/550 are the passive costs for a broodlord. If we define battlecruiser as T3, then broodlords are T5.
But that's really not very useful when talking about nonmirror matchups. As long as you don't build Colossi, Templar or Carriers, "T1" Marines counter every protoss unit, no matter what "tier" they are. (I'm not saying that one can't rely on defensive mechanisms like FFs against them! But in direct engagments the marine wins) Just think about Mech ("T2" and "T3" mixture) in PvT and Bio ("T1" and "T2" mixture). Guess which one has proven to be playable and which hasn't?
Seriously? You harp on like one part of one line as my "argument"? I just used Tiers as an easy way to explain the relative timings.
The part where I explain how Terran often get to Starport tech one a single base where as Protoss generally only get to Templar by 3bases should have been enough.
And your use of Tiers is just as awful. That isn't even what I meant
But what does it matter than Mech hasn't been proven vs Protoss? Terran have a viable way to play that is extremely effective .
The point still stands, races aren't the same, you can't compare anything that comes from the barracks to anything that comes from the gateway, that isn't how the game is built
Because my argument doesn't fall if you replace "Tier X" with "starport tech". Also there are Protoss 2gate 1robo openings. Protoss dt openings. Protoss Stargate openings in PvT. (all of 1base)
And Protoss have viable ways to play play PvT, PvP and ZvP with or without colossi. (though I'd always say that in standard play you always want to be able to have each tech available in lategame) Terrans don't have viable ways to play TvP without Stargates. And they don't have viable ways to play lategame (=standard, else someone just made a mistake) TvZ or TvT on pure baracks. That's why I say that gateway is a more complete tech path than Barracks.
This is such a ridiculous argument
What does it matter that you have to produce a Starport? Protoss may have a tech tree that complements the gateway well but to reach that requires a 20min+ game. Terran can safely get to Starport on a single base. Not to mention in the current metagame it is no longer possible to play a soley gateway tech game
What defines play styles like Mech is HOW the style is played, not where the units are made.
And my point still stands: I'm pretty certain that due to the in the quotes mentioned arguments, "Protoss reapers" would have to suck even more than Terran reapers (and they suck pretty hard right now).
That is something play testing would decide
Really, "how something is played" is more important than where and from which tech it is made (my point all along)? So why do you keep arguing that Terrans can build a Starport of 1base, while protoss needs a 20min game to get all the tech they need to kill a complete bio composition. Matter of the fact is, that Protoss can play very active through all those 20mins. (with dts, with blink, with allins, with warp prisms) At least once you are high enough level to have a decent amount of multitasking for that.
Who says I'm complaining? I'm trying to make a point. The point YOU are complaining that Terran "have" to make a Starport is absolutely absurd
For the time gateway styles did work forging Colossus actually had a meaningful impact on the game. It allowed you to get MUCH faster upgrades, faster expos, defend drops easier and be much more active around the map as opposed to the turtle style of Colossus.
But it isn't possible anymore. I have yet to see any standard play using these pure styles. But the point still stands, you play differently.
How does forging Medivacs and Viking expand on Bio play? It Doesn't. Not to mention skipping Starport does not have the same implications on Terran as it does Protoss.
Protoss is a race divided by tech.
Protoss may have three production facilities but it is not those three that define them, it is what is beyond that. Fleet Beacon, Templar Archives/Dark Shrine and Support bay are significantly more meaningful than the Gateway, Robotics Facility and Stargate.
Gateways are still made en-mass lategame as Protoss regardless of which tree you take but what makes them meaningful is the Tech you have got along the way.
Stop trying to compare races so casually. Why things work for one race and not the other is because it is completely different race
so you think blizzard has been working nearly a year now on HotS, but there is a reason that protoss has NOT been given a reaper/hellion unit on gateway tech? I'm sure there was a contest in the developing team with the rules: First three units a single person comes up with, make it into the game for protoss. (lol) And sadly all those great, great units some of the guys had in mind didn't make it, because the dumbest of those guys sadly had the fastest handwriting...
It was one of exactly 2reasons, why Protoss didn't get this (terranlike) unit, that people like you want them to have: a) The unit didn't fit in the Protoss concept, so they didn't want Protoss to have it b) The unit couldn't be balanced, therefore was either overpowered without completly redesigning parts of the Protoss race; or so underpowered, that it would not have seen use anyway And I really don't blame them for that. Even if there was a way to implement such a unit and make it "protossish": Why do it, when they are planning to fix that "issue" in protoss gameplay anyway with mass recall? People keep focusing on why new units don't do what they want them to do, while blizzard is adding huge features all around the game. Who plays roaches without speed? Noone. Who plays hydras without speed? Noone. Maybe Hydras with speed will be playable! Who plays mass (blink) stalkers to harass a terran with concussive shells? Noone. Who plays them, when you can just blink in, kill something and teleport home? Maybe that is what people will do! Cliffwalking colossi, walking into a mineral line, focusing scvs and then being teleported home, once the viking fleet arrives. Oracles, whichever balancing they will have shutting down spores and turrets, so protoss air harass/dts do major damage.
Those are all possibilities how the game may work out. We don't know yet, but ignoring that it may work out like that, and saying that a protoss reaper unit would surely have a big harass role while the terran reaper unit does not, is just whining about/glorifying things that we don't know how they will/would turn out.
Recall will change a lot if it makes it into the game. I think a lot of people are expecting it to be scrapped or nerfed to the ground because it's really stupidly good. But if it does make it, then everything P has looks a lot better, including options like blink stalkers.
Recall staying on the Nexus is the single most important thing Protoss could get in HotS. It doesn't need to be mass recall if that is too good, it could be 1 unit per 50 energy, and it'd still be OK. Or one unit per 25 energy but only non-massive units. Blizzard can find a way to make it work, and I think it can work and be balanced and bring options to Protoss like harassment.
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote: wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
Have you tried it out? WhiteRa was at Blizzcon and he did, and he was pretty critical of the Oracle on his stream.
And he was using HT drops when nobody else in the pro scene was, if I recall. As in, he doesn't mind using casting units if they are decent.
On November 03 2011 01:28 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote: wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
Have you tried it out? WhiteRa was at Blizzcon and he did, and he was pretty critical of the Oracle on his stream.
And he was using HT drops when nobody else in the pro scene was, if I recall. As in, he doesn't mind using casting units if they are decent.
Uh then why was he directly quoted as saying that Blizz is adding too many casters.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
This is sort of what I was talking about with my concerns about how 1-dimensional the oracle is right now. If it's going to be expensive, on stargate tech, and have no direct combat value, then it needs to have extremely strong harassment value (or it won't be used). But if the harassment is strong enough to offset its drawbacks, then it will run the risk of being overpowered in many situations (e.g. if Protoss gets far enough ahead to afford oracles, then they can't lose). This is the tightrope Blizzard has chosen to walk with the oracle.
I agree, I think I mentioned this in a different Oracle thread actually.
Fundamentally the unit concept is flawed for balance purposes. I honestly don't see any way to balance it because its got no "combat" utility at all, so it needs to be AMAZING at its purpose in order to be worth it. But doing that could make it horrendously OP.
Think about it this way: both HTs and the Oracle have no normal attack, so their abilities need to make up for that lack for anyone to bother building them. HTs make up for it by actually doing heavy damage with feedback and storm, Oracles don't do any actual damage at all and have no way to defend themselves. So the Oracle's abilities must be really, really worth it to take up that slack, probably more "effective" than Storm is, or the unit isn't going to be worth using.
It is hurting my brain so hard that some posters are commenting on phase shift shutting down Zerg buildings. For every Oracle you buy, Zerg can afford another spire, or pool, or roach warren, or Ultralisk cavern. Seriously... whatever the critical building is, Zerg can just build one more as soon as he sees an oracle. Right? The most inconvenient will be a greater spire. But with the oracle's low HP, late game if I were Zerg I'd just build 2 or 3 spores around my expensive buildings, plus your one queen, and that means oracles are shut down or forced to use their energy to turn off spores first.
Obviously phase shift will be not very good against Terran except for possibly upgrades or the starport.
Seriously... it's just a slightly better version of the Overseer's ability which has made a difference in about 1 pro match ever. Gah!!!!
Think of it like this... ghosts are good against HTs because they cost less than the damage they do. Oracles... costing more than 90% of the buildings they can shut down is not great.
On November 03 2011 01:28 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On November 03 2011 01:15 RedMosquito wrote: wow i cant believe theres still threads like this. The oracle is amazing! People are just not thinking of the applications. I for one cant wait to oracle storm drop people. entomb the mineral patches to clump of the workers, storm everything and pick up and leave. this unit is gonna be fun as hell
Have you tried it out? WhiteRa was at Blizzcon and he did, and he was pretty critical of the Oracle on his stream.
And he was using HT drops when nobody else in the pro scene was, if I recall. As in, he doesn't mind using casting units if they are decent.
Uh then why was he directly quoted as saying that Blizz is adding too many casters.
Because the Oracle ... is not going to help Protoss? I am the biggest caster unit fan on the planet. I love infestors (after they got balanced), ghosts (once balanced), HT, arbiters, the raven, sci vessels, you name it, I love it.
On November 03 2011 03:59 Big J wrote: Tyler, Destiny, JP, Artosis, Day9, Idra, Incontrol pretty much all said, that the oracle was one of the units that looked the most interesting out of all the new ones...
I'm glad you've brought this up because it shows you don't actually understand the problem. Practically nobody is saying that the Oracle isn't going to be "interesting". The ability to phase out buildings, in particular, could be incredibly powerful with protoss timing attacks. With that it could be an amazing unit and a good addition.
However that entirely misses the point, because Blizzard isn't putting it in for that purpose. Its supposed to be a "raider". Consequently what people are saying is that it really, really doesn't address the Protoss' need for a relatively early harrass that isn't basically all-in. And the very concept of the unit doesn't address the problem that Blizzard specifically STATED that it was there to address. To quote the presentation on the new units: "...they don't really have a solid...er...constant raiding option throughout the whole game especially in the early-mid game"
Source:
Whether or not the Oracle is going to be useful is immaterial next to the fact that theres just no real way it can be an effective and balanced harrass unit that can be used and balanced for both early and late game.
[quote]1) For example, a really subtle change would be something like allowing sentries to take up 1/8 of a warp prism instead of 1/4. This means that you could fit 4 sentries and 2 zealots, or 2 stalkers, or 2 high templar, or 2 DT, or 6 sentries and a DT, or whatever so you could actually do some damage with those sentries and their forcefields.[quote]
I actually think mixing up the amount of units you can get in a warp prism would help a lot. Admittedly there still isn't an awful lot of good stuff TO drop without a large investmen but it would help.
On November 02 2011 14:09 SMD wrote: "-The oracle can't shoot and is one-dimensional. Even if the oracle is balanced in such a way that it surpasses the harassment value of the phoenix and void ray, it lacks even the limited combat utility of its stargate peers. If Protoss already can't afford to get phoenixes or void rays against Terran, how can we expect them to afford a dedicated harassment unit that offers even less defensive value? Moreover, unlike the void ray (or the banshee or mutalisk), the oracle is only capable of raiding, and cannot be recycled into other functions after the harass has been defended. The mark of a robust unit design (like the void ray) is that it retains its value in many roles and is over-powered in none of them. Because the oracle is exceptionally one-dimensional, its harassment ability needs to be extremely strong in order to justify its cost. Blizzard is painting itself into a corner where the oracle's single function will need to be overpowered in order to offset its failings across the board. "
It can fit in well with an army though, or in conjunction with an attack, espicially against zerg.
zergs replenish armies quickly with lings/roaches. Well while your attacking the front, the oracles go in, lock out the roach warnen/pool or any structure u want, and they CANNOT MAKE IT, thus limiting there ability to replace there army during/after the battle
Well to start with, Browder specifically said the goal of the oracle was for it not to be a combat unit that can be added to a Protoss death ball. So he doesn't want it to be like the Banshee at all in that regard.
However that doesn't mean that entomb is the only ability that's worth anything on the Oracle. The ability to shut down turrets and crawlers can be extremely helpful in upping the effectiveness of Protoss's other harassment options.
Imagine how good Phoenixes or Void Rays will be if you have an Oracle around that can disable crawlers and turrets for them.
Just because it's a support unit/raider doesn't mean it's entirely one dimensional.
This crap about not adding to the deathball is....crap. First, Protoss's deathball really isn't stronger than MMVG or infestor+broodlord, so it seems silly to focus on that issue. Second, the tempest is the perfect complement to a colossus deathball since it kills corruptors and vikings. So Blizzard is strengthening the deathball significantly--they're just not doing it with the oracle. It's sort of like how Blizzard said there were too many good ways to kill workers, but ignored that the best options belong to Terran and Zerg. Then they give Protoss a dedicated raiding unit that also can't kill workers.
The idea of removing supply from the deathball is not just applied to protoss. Dustin stated he wanted to do it for all the races.
Prime example: The Shredder. A unit that costs supply and is specifically designed to NOT work when with your army.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
This is sort of what I was talking about with my concerns about how 1-dimensional the oracle is right now. If it's going to be expensive, on stargate tech, and have no direct combat value, then it needs to have extremely strong harassment value (or it won't be used). But if the harassment is strong enough to offset its drawbacks, then it will run the risk of being overpowered in many situations (e.g. if Protoss gets far enough ahead to afford oracles, then they can't lose). This is the tightrope Blizzard has chosen to walk with the oracle.
Thats exactly what I've been thinking, I honestly think the oracle can't be balanced by its current design. It needs to be good, but respondable to, and given its current 1-dimensional design, there doesn't seem to be a way to make it useful and also give the other races options to shut it down without completely blocking it out.
Best case scenario for the harassed is thus as follows: Oracle comes in, shuts down some mineral patches with a 75 health blockade.
Gas continues to be mined as usual. As this is a best case scenario, all other attacking units are out of position so some spare SCV are ordered to start attacking the 75hp blockade while marines makes their way over there. Marines proceed to kill the blockade and everything is back to normal.
Total loss: 0 workers, 0 gas loss, minor mineral loss. Less so than if you do a failed drop that just causes the person to pull drones for a short while. It also has no potential to ever do any serious harm, unlike a real drop that can wipe out an entire base with all workers as well as proceed on to the next target. There is simply no reason to be scared of the Oracle or even prepare for it as it has no potential to ever do any major damage regardless. There is no way to ever skill with it either, it has no excitement and the opponent doesn't even have to react. It is just a button press and the opponent loses some seconds of mining time regardless of how well or poorly you or him reacted.
As such, it is in my opinion a poor unit design and no amount of balance can "fix" it with how it is currently working. This is without even going into the fact that since it cannot help with defense, it is extremely risky to even build it. The sound option would be to give the abilities of the oracle to the warp prism, at least then it gives Protoss some decent harassment.
Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
On November 03 2011 02:36 Rivkeh wrote: I'm actually a bit concerned with the Oracle being too good because it takes virtually no TIME for the oracle to inflict its harassment. Imagine if you had to stop a single muta from attacking a mineral line a single time. It'd be almost impossible without a mistake on the zerg's behalf. The Oracle flies in at some relatively respectable speed, hits the mineral line with one spell, and moseys away. It looks to be relatively fast, and that ability is pretty powerful, but either the unit is too good at hitting and escaping or its easily run down by an air unit. Due to the massive blank air space behind basically every main base, theres plenty of space for an oracle to hide behind, and a ground force has NO chance of killing it unless it deliberately runs into marines. With no need to spend TIME in the mineral line, it'll be incredibly hard to kill unless theres an air unit that can actually run it down to death, in which case its worthless. Now this could be better balanced if the Oracle did anything but entomb minerals, but it has no other (meaningful) active abilities.
This is sort of what I was talking about with my concerns about how 1-dimensional the oracle is right now. If it's going to be expensive, on stargate tech, and have no direct combat value, then it needs to have extremely strong harassment value (or it won't be used). But if the harassment is strong enough to offset its drawbacks, then it will run the risk of being overpowered in many situations (e.g. if Protoss gets far enough ahead to afford oracles, then they can't lose). This is the tightrope Blizzard has chosen to walk with the oracle.
Thats exactly what I've been thinking, I honestly think the oracle can't be balanced by its current design. It needs to be good, but respondable to, and given its current 1-dimensional design, there doesn't seem to be a way to make it useful and also give the other races options to shut it down without completely blocking it out.
To be honest, if it stays the way it is right now...it could be balanced if it's made super-cheap. I mean, if it does literally no damage to units and can be countered by mass-expanding, then just making it very affordable could do the trick. Like the red-flame hellion.
kcdc is right in that there's no way an EXPENSIVE oracle would be balanced any time soon; either too expensive to be worth it, or too good if worth the price
On November 03 2011 07:25 Amlitzer wrote: Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
IIRC at one of the panels, DB said they twiddled with it for a couple months and it just wasn't working out. They must have seen some inherent flaw that isn't obvious to us.
On November 03 2011 07:25 Amlitzer wrote: Just bring back the Purifier, remove the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit, and change it's +biological attack to +light instead. Make it require a Twilight Council to build from a warp gate, give it a reasonable cost, and there you go Protss now has their harass unit. The best part is it would require practically zero effort on Blizzard's part seeing as how the unit is already in the game engine.
IIRC at one of the panels, DB said they twiddled with it for a couple months and it just wasn't working out. They must have seen some inherent flaw that isn't obvious to us.
Yes, but that was in reference to the "empowering attack" aspect of the unit. Originally, the unit started off weak and with each kill it would get stronger, kind of like the "ranking" system you find in a lot of C&C games (coincidence... I think not). Just give it a straight up standard attack, like every other unit in the game currently, and that issue is resolved. The unit also had a researchable ability that fired a bolt of psi lightning that jumped between units of the same type. This would be a perfect ability for harassment, and it would also help toss hold off marine and zergling all ins.
Thinking about the oracle more, I think Blizzard could greatly improve the concept of the unit by changing the mineral block ability to a stasis field like ability that only affects worker units. This allows toss to have an effective late game harass unit, which does not kill workers (thus keeping with the original unit concept), and which does not add to the deathball that blizzard is avoiding. Additionally, this can help toss defend against a terran who knows he is behind, and pulls all his worker in attempt to all in or base trade with his opponent.
On November 03 2011 02:00 bovineblitz wrote: Okay then.
Banshees.
you have to invest 200/200 in cloak, otherwise stalkers shut it down very easily. observer + stalker are maybe a bit off if you want to get ht/blink/dt, but if you are agressive enough with your phoenix you can force a cloak near the terran base which also shuts down banshees see grubby vs happy on daybreak.
Oh great, so if I have pro-level intuition I can rally my phoenix to where a banshee is moving across the map, that sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution, I'll figure out he's going banshee by scouting his ramp and make phoenixes and then have the sense to rally RIGHT TO the banshee.
Nevermind that even if he doesn't go cloak he can still pick off a couple probes, has a high DPS unit that works well with bio, forced crappy stalkers, forced detection, and can switch off the techlab to make 2x medivacs immediately.
Banshee fits all the criteria.
I'm just ignoring the rant on phoenixes. I just said it is possible, not that you could easily do that. But i thought the idea behind the phoenix is to harass and scout his base. So you have actual time to prepare for them. together with the possibility to cut off the direct path, you have even more time to react.
A banshee is 100/150. which would, in a naive way, be like 5 probes. if he can kill you 5 probes without you being able to react to that you have other problems than banshees. But I'm sorry you have to react to banshees by building stalkers. Seems like any T and esp. Z player can just ignore the oracle. not.
I also can't see how it works "well" with bio. It isn't bad to have them, but they don't add the utility of, say a medivac which heals your bioball and gives highground vision. It also forced detection but once you hold off the harass you can further use the obs to scout the terran base. it's not like the oh so liked turret at the terran expansion which is just there. maybe to hold off dts or observers but doesn't do anything beside that.
On November 03 2011 02:28 kcdc wrote: This. If I want to invest in dedicated harass, I already have stargate tech and phoenix/void available. I don't need a way to help me kill more drones with phoenix/void. What I need is either (1) a better way to defend and transition from phoenix/void, or (2) a better way to harass with gateway or robo openings. The oracle solves a problem that Protoss doesn't have.
No it's just something you want.
BTW a banshee is NOT 100/150
A banshee only costs 150/100! The same as a phoenix.
EPT
