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Heart of the Swarm (details, discussion, etc) - Page 33

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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-Archangel-
Profile Joined May 2010
Croatia7457 Posts
April 19 2012 18:57 GMT
#641
People hoping Blizzard actually hid some crazy story behind WoL are similar to all the nut jobs believing Shepard is actually indoctrinated and the ending is not real :D
voltaic
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1071 Posts
April 19 2012 20:22 GMT
#642
the xel'naga aren't extinct, a large part of the and a worldship was destroyed, but the rest fled out of the milkyway....
nerak
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Brazil256 Posts
April 19 2012 21:05 GMT
#643
SC Manual; Zerg chapter:

Driven to perfect their science of
proto-genetic evolution, the
ancient, enigmatic race known
as the Xel’Naga traveled to the distant fringeworld
of Aiur. The vast jungles of Aiur had
produced the most advanced race that the
Xel’Naga had ever seen. Believing that they
could steer the race’s evolution to the pinnacle
of physical perfection, the Xel’Naga began to
conduct their proto-genetic experiments. The
race that the Xel’Naga would eventually name
‘Protoss’ advanced rapidly and gained what
their creators termed ‘a distinct purity of form’.
Unfortunately, the Xel’Naga pushed their
experiment too far. The inherent essence and
sentience of the Protoss developed far too
rapidly, leading to bitter strife and division
between them and their creators. The
Xel’Naga deemed that the purity of form they
sought to create had been sullied by a conflict
of essence and thus decreed that the Protoss
were, in fact, a failed creation. The Xel’Naga
abandoned their children and launched
themselves into the void.
The Birth of the Zerg
Travelling thousands of light years into the
burning core of the galaxy, the Xel’Naga
eventually settled upon the volatile ash-world
of Zerus. The Xel’Naga planned to continue
their Grand Experiment of evolution, only this
time they dismissed their tenets of physical
form and focused chiefly on the pursuit of a
distinct purity of essence. Residing in their
massive ships high above the fires of Zerus,
the Xel’Naga began once again to challenge
the wiles of fate.


I think this show's that in 1998, the Xel'Naga were just testing and learning new stuff.

It also says that the Overmind thought about expanding to other planets by himself; and that it actually tricked the Xel'Nada and ambushed them:


As the swarms continued to grow and
strengthen, the Overmind turned its thoughts
towards its own future. It realised that within
a few short centuries its race had assimilated
all of the indigenous life upon Zerus. It knew
that to further evolve the swarm, the Zerg
would need to leave Zerus. The Overmind
began to reach out with its senses, looking
for something - anything - which would
provide them with transport from this world.
That opportunity soon arrived. A race of
gargantuan, space-faring life forms passed
through the Zerus system, and the Overmind
called to them. Drawn to the barren world
Blizzard Entertainment 53
by this beacon, they were quickly assimilated
by the swarm. The inclusion of super-dense
hides and the ability to exist in a vacuum
bolstered the genetic pool of the swarm. Soon
the Zerg warriors were conditioned to survive
the harshness of space.
This pivotal moment in the development of
the Zerg was not lost to the Xel’Naga. The Zerg,
despite having an extreme physical handicap,
had succeeded in not only surviving, but in
retaining the purity of their terrible overriding
essence. The Xel’Naga knew that they had
achieved their goal.
The Fall of the XelÕNaga
The pride in their achievements proved to be
the fatal downfall of the Xel’Naga. The
Overmind, while slowly expanding itself into
the void of space, became aware of the mighty
Xel’Naga world-ships hovering ominously
above the skies of Zerus. The Xel’Naga, having
kept a constant watch on the Overmind, were
horrified to find that it had actually severed their
psychic link, effectively hiding itself from their
view. With its need to consume driving its
minions into a lustful frenzy, the Overmind
launched the now space-faring Zerg swarms at
the unsuspecting Xel’Naga. The ancient race did
what they could to stem the tide of the everadvancing
Zerg onslaught, but in the end their
efforts were in vain. Wave after wave of Zerg
swarms hammered the reinforced hulls of the
Xel’Naga’s ships with no signs of abatement.
Within only a few hours the Zerg overran the
defenses of their creators and laid waste to the
Xel’Naga fleet.
As the greater whole of the Xel’Naga race was
consumed by the raging, genetic whirlwind of
the Zerg, the Overmind gained the knowledge
and insights of its masters.


That's where the Overmind learns about the Protoss... not only that. It also learns about every other race the Xel'Naga had created, becomes much wiser and improves the Swarm.

I think this alone would prove that the "Overmind retcon" is a retcon.

Here's something I think is important:


Despite innumerable victories, the
Overmind was greatly disturbed. The
Overmind was aware that the Protoss had
become a highly psionic race, able to
bend and warp the very fabric of reality
to their whims. It sought a way to counter
the awesome might of the Protoss, but
found no answers among the genetic
strains it devoured.
Blizzard Entertainmen54 t
On the verge of despair, the Overmind
made an amazing discovery. One of its deepspace
probes had relayed the location and
vital statistics of a race that occupied a series
of nondescript worlds, right under the
shadow of the Protoss.
The new race, called Humanity, was mere
generations away from developing into a
formidable psionic power. But the Overmind
also knew that Humanity was still in its infant
stages, hardly capable of defending itself
against the ravenous Zerg. Although a shortlived
and seemingly frail species, the
Overmind knew that Humanity would be the
final determinant in its victory over the
Protoss. If it could assimilate the psionic
potential of Humanity, the Overmind would
have the ability to combat the Protoss on its
own terms.


The Overmind was on the verge os despair because it hadn't any weapon good enough to fight the Protoss.

So why does he leaves Char into Aiur without any new weapon? That's plain senseless. A real major plot hole. It was despairing, and all of a sunden it is cool?

That's why I welcome this retcon. Stories can be awesome with plot holes (and the OM's story is), but if we can fix them, better.


More on the Xel'Naga in the Protoss chapter:

A lthough only fragmented
documentation remains,
ancient Protoss texts speak of
a highly advanced race that ruled over
thousands of worlds in the galaxy, tens of
millions of years ago. This enigmatic race,
often called the Xel’Naga, or ‘wanderers
from afar’, was rumoured to have seeded
and cultivated thousands of various species
on the cold and barren worlds within their
domain. Protoss traditions hold that the
Xel’Naga were a peaceful and benevolent
race, utterly consumed with the study and
propagation of sentient evolution within the
universe. Nothing is known of the origin of
the Xel’Naga, save that they were not native
to the galaxy over which they held sway.
Obsessed with fashioning the perfect lifeform,
the Xel’Naga laboured to create a
creature that would be defined by a distinct
purity of form.
"I am smiling" - Marauder Dynamite
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
April 19 2012 21:24 GMT
#644
That's where the Overmind learns about the Protoss... not only that. It also learns about every other race the Xel'Naga had created, becomes much wiser and improves the Swarm.

I think this alone would prove that the "Overmind retcon" is a retcon.

Here's something I think is important:


no that doesnt show its a retcon, Tassadar didnt say that the overmind knew about the protoss from the moment of its birth

The Overmind was on the verge os despair because it hadn't any weapon good enough to fight the Protoss.

So why does he leaves Char into Aiur without any new weapon? That's plain senseless. A real major plot hole. It was despairing, and all of a sunden it is cool?

That's why I welcome this retcon. Stories can be awesome with plot holes (and the OM's story is), but if we can fix them, better.


well maybe, JUST maybe, the Overmind was worried about a long drawn out war of attrition becuase he had no way to pick and choose the battles and force the protoss onto the defensive, he would ahve had to LITERALLY creep every planet in the secter and slowly figure out where Aiur was before he could even think of attacking it he was probably like "shit i have no way to be offensive so i have no choice but to fight in exactly the way the protoss want this fight to go so i need something that can stand toe to toe with the protoss so when they show up i can bring the fight to them"

but because he figured out where it was he could bring the full heatlhy might of the entire swarm on the core of the protoss in one fell swoup instead of fighting over several planets i mean its not like they could glass Aiur

which would you prefer, attacking a protoss in a choke or nydusing there main?
nerak
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Brazil256 Posts
April 19 2012 21:39 GMT
#645
well maybe, JUST maybe, the Overmind was worried about a long drawn out war of attrition becuase he had no way to pick and choose the battles and force the protoss onto the defensive, he would ahve had to LITERALLY creep every planet in the secter and slowly figure out where Aiur was before he could even think of attacking it he was probably like "shit i have no way to be offensive so i have no choice but to fight in exactly the way the protoss want this fight to go so i need something that can stand toe to toe with the protoss so when they show up i can bring the fight to them"

but because he figured out where it was he could bring the full heatlhy might of the entire swarm on the core of the protoss in one fell swoup instead of fighting over several planets i mean its not like they could glass Aiur

which would you prefer, attacking a protoss in a choke or nydusing there main?


Awesome.

You're right on that. But still, the game doesn't mention it. So it confused me while I was playing.

Also, the OM took 60 years to arrive at the Koprulu sector. Than it takes a moment to warp to Aiur. Ok, could happen (needed/wanted more strains? wasn't in a hurry? couldn't warp all the distance for some reason?), but then again, when things follow a different logic in manual and in game, you better explain why.
"I am smiling" - Marauder Dynamite
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
April 19 2012 22:01 GMT
#646
On April 20 2012 06:39 nerak wrote:
Show nested quote +
well maybe, JUST maybe, the Overmind was worried about a long drawn out war of attrition becuase he had no way to pick and choose the battles and force the protoss onto the defensive, he would ahve had to LITERALLY creep every planet in the secter and slowly figure out where Aiur was before he could even think of attacking it he was probably like "shit i have no way to be offensive so i have no choice but to fight in exactly the way the protoss want this fight to go so i need something that can stand toe to toe with the protoss so when they show up i can bring the fight to them"

but because he figured out where it was he could bring the full heatlhy might of the entire swarm on the core of the protoss in one fell swoup instead of fighting over several planets i mean its not like they could glass Aiur

which would you prefer, attacking a protoss in a choke or nydusing there main?


Awesome.

You're right on that. But still, the game doesn't mention it. So it confused me while I was playing.

Also, the OM took 60 years to arrive at the Koprulu sector. Than it takes a moment to warp to Aiur. Ok, could happen (needed/wanted more strains? wasn't in a hurry? couldn't warp all the distance for some reason?), but then again, when things follow a different logic in manual and in game, you better explain why.

they really didnt have much time to really explain stuff naturally though theres only so much that can be put in the briefings and cutscenes without jsut adding tons of info for infos sake
Telenil
Profile Joined September 2010
France484 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-20 09:00:51
April 20 2012 08:38 GMT
#647
On April 20 2012 06:05 nerak wrote:
The Overmind was on the verge os despair because it hadn't any weapon good enough to fight the Protoss.

So why does he leaves Char into Aiur without any new weapon? That's plain senseless. A real major plot hole. It was despairing, and all of a sunden it is cool?
You are not the first to bring this up and the answer hasn't changed: Kerrigan was left behind because Tassadar and Zeratul were not with their main force when it was surrounded and destroyed in An Eye for an Eye. This is explained in the original game, just before the level in which the Zerg invade Aiur.

The two Protoss were the most dangerous opponents the Overmind had ever faced, so it left its most powerful warrior to track and destroy them. Which makes sense, Kerrigan was an excellent choice to fight elite psionists, and killing Zeratul and Tassadar was more important than anything she could have achieved on Aiur, where she would have been just an elite soldier in a world war.
So, no, this is not a plot hole. You may argue that the Overmind shouldn't have left Char before they were dead, but that's a different subject.

Note that in the retconned version, An Eye for an Eye wouldn't make any sense: the Zerg didn't know Tassadar and Zeratul would survive, and the objective of the level is "Let no Dark Templar escape", specifically. This is sensible from the original Overmind, and absurd if it has a death wish. Besides, who does it send to kill the enemies that must be kept alive at all costs? Kerrigan, the other being that must be kept alive at all costs.

Also, the OM took 60 years to arrive at the Koprulu sector. Than it takes a moment to warp to Aiur. Ok, could happen (needed/wanted more strains? wasn't in a hurry? couldn't warp all the distance for some reason?), but then again, when things follow a different logic in manual and in game, you better explain why.
We know from the manual that the Terran worlds are relatively close to the Protoss sector, and warp travel is not instantaneous in Starcraft. Even members of the UED fleet were in cold sleep during their journey.

As far as invading Aiur is concerned, we also know the Zerg didn't expect the Protoss to find them first, so I'd assume the Overmind changed its plan. It does sound impractical to spend several years trying to infest the Terran when the Protoss can build new ships and send them against you, and after all, the Zerg had their first elite psionist already.
Mass Recall: Brood War campaigns on SC2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303166
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
April 20 2012 15:22 GMT
#648
Note that in the retconned version, An Eye for an Eye wouldn't make any sense: the Zerg didn't know Tassadar and Zeratul would survive, and the objective of the level is "Let no Dark Templar escape", specifically. This is sensible from the original Overmind, and absurd if it has a death wish. Besides, who does it send to kill the enemies that must be kept alive at all costs? Kerrigan, the other being that must be kept alive at all costs.


he doesnt really care if Tassadar or Zeratulk arrive becuase he has no idea that the Dark Templar are such hated beings, or that Tassadar gained training from Zeratul and was such a powerful being, if anything he was expecting to show up on Aiur and have to fight of dark templar at every turn rather then be shielded from the dark templar by the protoss

besides if Tassadar and Zeratul are so weak the cant escape from a small portion of the swarm then how would they ever be a threat to him?
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-20 16:35:11
April 20 2012 16:31 GMT
#649
Well, with the Overmind slave retcon, you can consider the whole "going to Aiur" thing a suicidal gambit to get Kerrigan in control of the Swarm. It would probably be the only way the Overmind could do so while still trying to merging with the protoss and fulfilling his purpose.

lso, the OM took 60 years to arrive at the Koprulu sector. Than it takes a moment to warp to Aiur. Ok, could happen (needed/wanted more strains? wasn't in a hurry? couldn't warp all the distance for some reason?), but then again, when things follow a different logic in manual and in game, you better explain why.


Well I dunno, the Overmind says he needs "Hallowed Ground" for some reason. Maybe he needs Xel'Naga sci-fi magic to warp like that.
Telenil
Profile Joined September 2010
France484 Posts
April 20 2012 16:59 GMT
#650
On April 21 2012 00:22 Forikorder wrote:
besides if Tassadar and Zeratul are so weak the cant escape from a small portion of the swarm then how would they ever be a threat to him?
Are you seriously asking me why the Overmind considered Zeratul to be a threat?
Mass Recall: Brood War campaigns on SC2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303166
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
April 20 2012 17:51 GMT
#651
On April 21 2012 00:22 Forikorder wrote:
Show nested quote +
Note that in the retconned version, An Eye for an Eye wouldn't make any sense: the Zerg didn't know Tassadar and Zeratul would survive, and the objective of the level is "Let no Dark Templar escape", specifically. This is sensible from the original Overmind, and absurd if it has a death wish. Besides, who does it send to kill the enemies that must be kept alive at all costs? Kerrigan, the other being that must be kept alive at all costs.


he doesnt really care if Tassadar or Zeratulk arrive becuase he has no idea that the Dark Templar are such hated beings, or that Tassadar gained training from Zeratul and was such a powerful being, if anything he was expecting to show up on Aiur and have to fight of dark templar at every turn rather then be shielded from the dark templar by the protoss

besides if Tassadar and Zeratul are so weak the cant escape from a small portion of the swarm then how would they ever be a threat to him?


Zeratul used his dark templar energies to slay a cerebrate and severed the link to its master the overmind. In doing so Zeratul "Touched briefly with its mind". There the overmind gets full knowledge of these dark templar and the location of Aiur is extracted from him and gets firsthand knowledge of how lethal the Protoss can be.


Not a threat? If the capacity to permanently render 25% of your entire army capacity in a state of perpetual frenzy so strong that he cannot regain control of these units trough usual means is not a threat then i dunno what is.
"Mudkip"
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-20 17:54:37
April 20 2012 17:52 GMT
#652
On April 21 2012 01:59 Telenil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2012 00:22 Forikorder wrote:
besides if Tassadar and Zeratul are so weak the cant escape from a small portion of the swarm then how would they ever be a threat to him?
Are you seriously asking me why the Overmind considered Zeratul to be a threat?


well technically Zeratul wasnt a threat to him since the only important thing he actually did was kill Zasz and train Tassadar

Not a threat? If the capacity to permanently render 25% of your entire army capacity in a state of perpetual frenzy so strong that he cannot regain control of these units trough usual means is not a threat then i dunno what is.


Kerrigan all but killed him on Char, why instead of killing them she just locked them up makes no sense at all but she did capture Zeratul and Tassadar and Raynor on char so they were not really a threat to the overmind they got one good sneak attack in and then the dark templar were just powerful additions to the army and had pretty much no lore significance aside from making one distraction and teaching Tassadar how to use there energy (ignoring BW for now since BW has nothing to do with THE Overmind)
Telenil
Profile Joined September 2010
France484 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-20 20:03:50
April 20 2012 19:57 GMT
#653
On April 21 2012 02:52 Forikorder wrote:

well technically Zeratul wasnt a threat to him since the only important thing he actually did was kill Zasz and train Tassadar

Kerrigan all but killed him on Char, why instead of killing them she just locked them up makes no sense at all but she did capture Zeratul and Tassadar and Raynor on char so they were not really a threat to the overmind they got one good sneak attack in and then the dark templar were just powerful additions to the army and had pretty much no lore significance aside from making one distraction and teaching Tassadar how to use there energy (ignoring BW for now since BW has nothing to do with THE Overmind)
Come on, you can figure it by yourself.

It feels almost ridiculous to remind it, but as far as we know, Zeratul and the Dark Templar are the only people in the universe that can kill the Cerebrate and remove thousands of Zerg from the war with one blow. Kerrigan thought Tassadar wasn't much a threat, and next thing we know, a Cerebrate is dead and an entire Brood has to be eradicated.

But even their military value is nothing compared to the fact that they can kill the Overmind - Tassadar uses "Dark Templar energies" to destroy the first, and Zeratul himself slays the second. The Overmind is the collective conscience of all Zerg, and thus he is immortal - except if he is struck by members of a certain group, in which case all the Zerg would turn into mindless animals. I agree that at this point of the game, Tassadar himself hasn't proven as dangerous as the Dark Templar, although his proximity to Zeratul is enough to hunt to him down, just to be safe. But the Dark Templar were more threatening than a fleet of carriers, the entire Swarm wasn't safe as long as they lived.

About the installation mission specifically, I would just assume the Dark Templar locked themselves in, just like the Terran did. Kerrigan and the Zerg never took prisonners.
Mass Recall: Brood War campaigns on SC2: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=303166
nerak
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Brazil256 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-20 20:45:22
April 20 2012 20:44 GMT
#654
Note that in the retconned version, An Eye for an Eye wouldn't make any sense: the Zerg didn't know Tassadar and Zeratul would survive, and the objective of the level is "Let no Dark Templar escape", specifically. This is sensible from the original Overmind, and absurd if it has a death wish. Besides, who does it send to kill the enemies that must be kept alive at all costs? Kerrigan, the other being that must be kept alive at all costs.


Telenil, I agree with most of what you say. Just remember that 1) The suspense about how the retcon works was intentional and that 2) still, in "Echoes of the future" we see Zeratul feeling the following things from the Overmind's nerves:


-... pain. Surprise. Death.
-... death... and joy?
-... satisfaction... in a plan set in motion long ago... and... fear of the future?
-... an end


"A plan set in motion long ago". The Overming was planning something. If the retcon is well done, it will explain why it hunted the Dark Templar.

But just for lore theorycrafting sake: we don't know how its slavery worked, but maybe it couldn't ignore any direct threat to itself, so its suicide plan had to be intrincate. It had its eyes all over the Koprulu Sector and maybe it could even foresee Tassadar's, Zeratul's and Raynor's actions.

I believe we will have a good explanation for most things. I'm not against the retcon if it is well done.
"I am smiling" - Marauder Dynamite
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
April 20 2012 20:47 GMT
#655
Come on, you can figure it by yourself.

It feels almost ridiculous to remind it, but as far as we know, Zeratul and the Dark Templar are the only people in the universe that can kill the Cerebrate and remove thousands of Zerg from the war with one blow. Kerrigan thought Tassadar wasn't much a threat, and next thing we know, a Cerebrate is dead and an entire Brood has to be eradicated.

But even their military value is nothing compared to the fact that they can kill the Overmind - Tassadar uses "Dark Templar energies" to destroy the first, and Zeratul himself slays the second. The Overmind is the collective conscience of all Zerg, and thus he is immortal - except if he is struck by members of a certain group, in which case all the Zerg would turn into mindless animals. I agree that at this point of the game, Tassadar himself hasn't proven as dangerous as the Dark Templar, although his proximity to Zeratul is enough to hunt to him down, just to be safe. But the Dark Templar were more threatening than a fleet of carriers, the entire Swarm wasn't safe as long as they lived.

About the installation mission specifically, I would just assume the Dark Templar locked themselves in, just like the Terran did. Kerrigan and the Zerg never took prisonners.


right, which is why we have to go to such ends to rescue them if there as powerful as they are why didnt they know that Tassadar and co had entered to find them and met them halfway instead of chilling in there cells?

yes, dark templar IN GENERAL are a threat becuase of there wierd power, it makes dark templars as a whole a threat an individual dark templar is not a threat if Zeratul could have gone rambo and solod the overmind he would have
therockmanxx
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru1174 Posts
April 25 2012 14:34 GMT
#656
I think we are missing a huge plot hole that was in starcraft ghost ...
Tekken ProGamer
Forikorder
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada8840 Posts
April 25 2012 16:10 GMT
#657
On April 25 2012 23:34 therockmanxx wrote:
I think we are missing a huge plot hole that was in starcraft ghost ...

i dont think starcraft ghost was ever far enough in the production cycle to have much lore in it
Demerzel
Profile Joined March 2012
23 Posts
April 26 2012 12:25 GMT
#658
Raynor was degraded to a sad character by the end of WoL. Killing Protoss fanatics for mineral wealth? What have they done to him or anyone else? Isn't that kinda anti-religious? Isn't he an ally of the Protoss? Why on earth will he never listen to Matt's suspicions on Tychus? And speaking of which, did he have to kill Tychus at the end? He could have wounded him, tried to help him out. There are so many more annoying aspects about him, he ultimately becomes extremely unlikable. The gameplay was great, but the characters were highly flawed. IMO the story should have taken place from different viewpoints, not just that of the renegade Hyperion crew (which, btw, seem a little OP considering that they barely suffer any losses against the behemoth armies of Mengsk and Kerrigan). Also, wtf is wrong with Mengsk? Isn't he supposed to be a great leader on face value? Since when did he start chanting stuff like 'work hard, etc. etc.' and how did he turn into such a totalitarian dictator?
Deimos0
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Poland277 Posts
April 26 2012 12:48 GMT
#659
Yeah, killing Protoss felt strange. But killing Tychus was probably a necessity, since his armor was made on Mengsk's order - it could have killed him anyway. Mengsk himself was lost after slaughter on Tarsonis and after leaving Kerrigan during "The new Gettysburg" - that was probably the main suggestion that Arcturus is not that honorable.
protect me from what I want
Demerzel
Profile Joined March 2012
23 Posts
April 26 2012 13:57 GMT
#660
I'm sure Mengsk wouldn't detonate Tychus' suit that very instant.. Raynor could atleast have tried. Also, it's not about Mengsk's honor. It's about how he portrays himself to his people. Don't they believe he's all just and able and stuff? He sounds like a downright communist (no offense to anyone).
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