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On April 09 2012 12:29 nerak wrote:Show nested quote +Calling them "filler" is just kind of weird. Some of those missions were downright awesome. Can you have awesome filler? Awesome gameplay indeed; story-wise, narrative-wise, did we need two missions in those cases? Yeah, "filler" gives a false impression I'm saying those missions shouldn't be there. I think they should be there, they rule, but they should have content, and I think they didn't. Instead of having 3 Tosh missions that could be 2, I mean we could have 3 Tosh missions that actually had to be 3; or instead, 2 Tosh missions, and an extra "side" question somewhere (that's what I'd like to see in HotS).
none of the other arcs were missing any mission so either they add a random mission that isnt at all connected to any other part of the story telling in any way and have it exactly like "welcome to the jungle"
or they just remove the mission entirely
theres no reason not to ahve that mission there
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I'm not going to convince you Forikorder. I believe the game has some flaws, you don't. That's ok. But I can't convince you that "flaw X was caused by Y" if you don't believe there is a flaw X in the first place.
But if you want to consider the possibility just for the sake of debating (cause debate is fun), then I'll tell you: (It may be wise to remember that I'm talking about the story; gameplay was perfect and no one disagrees on that) flaw X is that the game loses both rhythm and sense/focus sometimes. The cause of it isn't Tosh's existence, Bel'Shir's existence or the Welcome to the Jungle mission. The cause of it is both a story structure that was obviously too hard to deal with (in the sense of delivering a coherent story, not in the sense of delivering nice gameplay) , and also some chapters that could use some revising. Because by revising specific parts of a text/film/games, you improve the product as a whole.
The revising I would suggest is: the game contains too many events that are not relevant to the story, but that you will read thorough, because Bombadill's chapter is standing there and you are going to read it.
So, one resource-gathering-for-a-pirate mission? Excellent, it shows Raynor's life isn't all about fighting for justice. It's like Tom Bombadill's chapter. It shows the Middle Earth isn't all about the war between good and evil, virtue and corruption.
But what if just some chapters after that we find another weird house, inhabited by another weird little man set aside the world-changing war? Ok, it tells us that there are more people/creatures like Tom in the Middle Earth... but Tom's chapter was a rupture in rhythm and theme already, a rupture that was a success for the narrative. Would a second encounter as such has the same effect, or just be redundant?
That's the word that sums it up: redundancy. What's the effect to the overall story of a text/film/game if a lot of it's chapters/scenes/missions are redundant? If it's a book, it will be a book that will make you say, "ok, you could had say this with fewer words; or you could have used the same amount of words to tell us much more".
But here comes the actual problem... how much could be told? Maybe Blizzard only had that much ideas. Maybe Raynor's story couldn't have more than X events going on. If it's a book, even better: just write fewer words. But if it's Starcraft, we don't want fewer missions, we want more!
So, my personal solution to have 30 missions but still don't maculate the narrative with redundancy is this: put the "not story-heavy" missions out of the narrative.
I hope I have summed it better this time.
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I hope I have summed it better this time.
no it still doesnt make sense, wether the mission is part of the Tosh arc or just a random lonely mission unafiliated with any arc its still a mission that everyone will play regardless of wether it unlocks other missions or not
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I don't know how it could be done in WoL. I think it might work in HotS.
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It felt like you accomplished very little in WoL in my opinion. Fine you attacked char, lost most of all the army, kerrigan got human. But there's unfinished business in Mengsk still sitting on the throne.
In the campaign in SC1 you did really big things, you threw over the confederation, as zerg you invaded the protoss homeworld and protoss killed the overmind. Compared to that rescuing some dirt farmers and making a TV broadcast that changed nothing (at least you didnt see it changing anything ...) just doesnt seem much..
BTW I wanna hear more about hots, it's been nearly half a year now?
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On April 11 2012 00:17 TzTz wrote:
It felt like you accomplished very little in WoL in my opinion. Fine you attacked char, lost most of all the army, kerrigan got human. But there's unfinished business in Mengsk still sitting on the throne.
In the campaign in SC1 you did really big things, you threw over the confederation, as zerg you invaded the protoss homeworld and protoss killed the overmind. Compared to that rescuing some dirt farmers and making a TV broadcast that changed nothing (at least you didnt see it changing anything ...) just doesnt seem much..
BTW I wanna hear more about hots, it's been nearly half a year now?
in the Terran campaign you fought tooth and nail and finally managed to overthrow the tyranical dictatorship of the confederacy.... and put a new tyranical dictator in charge
your right, we accomplished so much in Rebel Yell
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It felt like you accomplished very little in WoL in my opinion. Fine you attacked char, lost most of all the army, kerrigan got human. But there's unfinished business in Mengsk still sitting on the throne.
Well, according to Browder Kerrigan is a godess fighting gods. It means we are going to do big things... but does it means we are going to accomplish things? Fighting a Titan and leaving with a draw doesn't lead the story nowhere.
I think that if they intended Raynor to be the guy with the small army who can only be delusional if he wants to overthrow an Emperor, that's awesome, but they could have clearer that the Hyperior was always hiding and unsafe. Playing a powerless character is very interesting; but you don't feel powerless in WoL, and you also don't accomplish things, not in the same way you did in SC1/BW.
BTW I wanna hear more about hots, it's been nearly half a year now?
I have good news for you. We are going to have a Q&A with Blizzard writing staff soon. If we do the right questions we will have a lot to talk about after that.
Source..
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Personally, and this is my opinion, I like that Mengsk is still on the throne. There is a sense of hopelessness to it, but also that more is to come. In addition, it paints him as a worthy foe, one who doesn't go down so easily.
The Overmind isn't dead at the end of Rebel Yell either. Is that a flaw?
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On April 11 2012 04:50 Dante.StarCraft wrote:
Personally, and this is my opinion, I like that Mengsk is still on the throne. There is a sense of hopelessness to it, but also that more is to come. In addition, it paints him as a worthy foe, one who doesn't go down so easily.
The Overmind isn't dead at the end of Rebel Yell either. Is that a flaw?
to play the devils advocate some fighting against the Zerg was enver a major point in Rebel yell
it was barely a minor point it was pretty mcuh jsut you trying to take down the confederacy
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Personally, and this is my opinion, I like that Mengsk is still on the throne. There is a sense of hopelessness to it, but also that more is to come. In addition, it paints him as a worthy foe, one who doesn't go down so easily.
Amen brother. Also, Raynor sacrifices the momentum he had against Mengsk for a chance to kill his ghosts (I think and Metzen agrees that the "saving the universe" thing is secondary). It helps to underline how broken and obsessive and human he is.
The Overmind isn't dead at the end of Rebel Yell either. Is that a flaw?
But about that... the Confederacy is dead in the end of Rebel Yell. Aiur is burning in the end of Overmind. The Overmind is dead in the end of The Fall.
Brood War is a little different; in Chapters IV and V, you achieve you final objective (sucure Shakuras/tame the New Overmind), but in both chapters, it happens just after a brutal loss - killing a beloved ally. Because of Kerrigan's lies.
Finally in The Queen of Blades Kerrigan isn't the underdog anymore; she is the stronger piece of her alliance, but still she is not strong enough alone; her whole plan can fall apart at any minute. Except it doesn't, and you humilliare everyone... Twice!
(but not before the player is told that a cycle is coming to its end and that Kerrigan victory doesn't matter that much)
So, whatever the story is, you fully acomplish what you proposed yourseld to acomplish in Mission 1.
Except in WoL: the story is obviously about defeating the Dominion, and you don't. Or is that so?
Methinks WoL isn't a game about Starcraft Universe. WoL is about Raynor. And Raynor's main objective is to figure out what to do with his angst. And he gets that.
But even if I'm wrong; if WoL is a game about overthrowing the Dominion, and we fail at doing it; and Starcraft old players find this weird, because we were always changing the scales of balance of the Universe, but it's good anyway. Because failure also tells a good story.
My problem with WoL is that you don't accomplish anything, but you also never feel like your losing. It's a little tasteless.
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Compared to that rescuing some dirt farmers and making a TV broadcast that changed nothing (at least you didnt see it changing anything ...) just doesnt seem much..
did you skip the cinematic right after the mission with the TV broadcast? that was probably one of the most satisfying moments for me, seeing Raynor and Horner finally making significant progress in their mission to overthrow Mengsk.
and i don't know if you were picking up the cues from the dialogue and cinematics from the various missions leading up to All In, but de-infesting Kerrigan was a pretty big deal... and not just "oh we rehabilitated the most dangerous criminal in the galaxy" there's significant emotional closure for Raynor to finally be able to do what he couldn't back at New Gettysburg, that of saving Kerrigan.
Personally, and this is my opinion, I like that Mengsk is still on the throne. There is a sense of hopelessness to it, but also that more is to come. In addition, it paints him as a worthy foe, one who doesn't go down so easily.
yes I agree, it certainly helps to build towards the upcoming expansions, both for HotS and LotV.
The trailer for HotS really does paint Raynor and crew's situation as a rather shitty one though, furthering that sense of hopelessness in Raynor's ragtag vs Mengsk's huge army situation
Methinks WoL isn't a game about Starcraft Universe. WoL is about Raynor. And Raynor's main objective is to figure out what to do with his angst. And he gets that.
i stand in agreement with this. pretty sure that's what Metz had stated in interviews too, that bit about WoL being Raynor's story
My problem with WoL is that you don't accomplish anything, but you also never feel like your losing. It's a little tasteless.
I certainly understand the sentiment, and while i'm not sure how successful they were in the execution, i do believe the original intent was to convey the sense of Raynor starting out from a point of having lost everything (ol' buddy Fenix is dead, Kerrigan is infested, Mengsk tarnishing his reputation in the media). and again, judging from the announcement trailer for HotS, i'm sure we'll get that losing feeling at the intro when Nova & Co poops all over the Hyperion
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On April 11 2012 05:16 nerak wrote:Show nested quote +Personally, and this is my opinion, I like that Mengsk is still on the throne. There is a sense of hopelessness to it, but also that more is to come. In addition, it paints him as a worthy foe, one who doesn't go down so easily. Amen brother. Also, Raynor sacrifices the momentum he had against Mengsk for a chance to kill his ghosts (I think and Metzen agrees that the "saving the universe" thing is secondary). It helps to underline how broken and obsessive and human he is. But about that... the Confederacy is dead in the end of Rebel Yell. Aiur is burning in the end of Overmind. The Overmind is dead in the end of The Fall. Brood War is a little different; in Chapters IV and V, you achieve you final objective (sucure Shakuras/tame the New Overmind), but in both chapters, it happens just after a brutal loss - killing a beloved ally. Because of Kerrigan's lies. Finally in The Queen of Blades Kerrigan isn't the underdog anymore; she is the stronger piece of her alliance, but still she is not strong enough alone; her whole plan can fall apart at any minute. Except it doesn't, and you humilliare everyone... Twice! (but not before the player is told that a cycle is coming to its end and that Kerrigan victory doesn't matter that much) So, whatever the story is, you fully acomplish what you proposed yourseld to acomplish in Mission 1. Except in WoL: the story is obviously about defeating the Dominion, and you don't. Or is that so? Methinks WoL isn't a game about Starcraft Universe. WoL is about Raynor. And Raynor's main objective is to figure out what to do with his angst. And he gets that. But even if I'm wrong; if WoL is a game about overthrowing the Dominion, and we fail at doing it; and Starcraft old players find this weird, because we were always changing the scales of balance of the Universe, but it's good anyway. Because failure also tells a good story. My problem with WoL is that you don't accomplish anything, but you also never feel like your losing. It's a little tasteless.
WoL was more about stopping the Zerg then anything, only matts arc really fought with the dominion pretty much every other arc is about protecting people from the Zerg (Hanson) or working otwards defeating them outright (artifact)
the anti-dominion was really jsut to get the story started
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I really like WoL campaigne from the point that it revolve around Jim Raynor himself. It shows the depth of the character that SC1 lacks imo because SC1 focus more on big scale of story. Both games are good in different way.
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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/4833874/Developer_Update_Heart_of_the_Swarm_Multiplayer-4_11_2012#blog
basically
there stumped to what to do with Terran since there already such a complete race
Tempest is going to be a flying siege tank taht doesnt have to siege
Zerg are keeping the overseer
possibility for new types of Nydus worms including one that can attack
Replicant and shredder have been chopped, warhound is on the fence possible to have Thor remain as normal with some sort of air only spider mine
Beta is still a ways away
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Totally called the keeping of the overseer. That would have a serious bitch to fix and balance.
Interesting that they're having so much trouble with Terran. I wonder what they'll end up with.
New nydus worms sounds sick but I have no idea how they would work.
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I feel happy for the overseer. Also they confirmed my bet that Blizz DotA is a reason for the delay.
Edit:
Some people say Blizzard had more creative units and solutions for Terrans in WoL because of the campaign.
Is this happening to Zerg right now?
The Oracle's design is great (as a non-aggressive harasser) and it will probably stay. But the other two "creative" new units from Terran and Protoss are out. The Zerg units, though, are both creative and solid.
Now this ideas about nydus worms... I really think this is something that the process of making the single player may have helped them to think of. If I'm right about that, we'll have at least one mission in HotS that will be about creative use of Nydus Worms.
Do you think there are any other "hints" about the singleplayer in HotS multiplayer features showed so far?
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Does tempest feel like a deathball-only type of unit to anyone else? I thought they were shying away from that.... Its like a colossus that ground units cant hit.
I'm glad about them taking the shredder out, and to a lesser extent, the replicator, those looked like balance disasters. Same with viper being a detector, although it better cost a lot of resources for the amazing spells it has ha ;p
Edited for typo thanks forikorder 
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On April 13 2012 07:46 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Does tempest feel like a deathball-only type of unit to anyone else? I thought they were shying away from that.... Its like a colossus that ground units cant hit.
I'm glad about them taking the shredder out, and to a lesser extent, the oracle, those looked like balance disasters. Same with viper being a detector, although it better cost a lot of resources for the amazing spells it has ha ;p
tehy didnt remove the Oracle they removed the replicator
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On April 13 2012 07:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 07:46 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
Does tempest feel like a deathball-only type of unit to anyone else? I thought they were shying away from that.... Its like a colossus that ground units cant hit.
I'm glad about them taking the shredder out, and to a lesser extent, the oracle, those looked like balance disasters. Same with viper being a detector, although it better cost a lot of resources for the amazing spells it has ha ;p
tehy didnt remove the Oracle they removed the replicator
That's what I meant sorry ^_^
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The new Nydus worms sound really interesting. All in all the balance changes and new units are making me think of switching to zerg full time (from Random) anyone else thinking about making a race change for HotS?
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EPT
