On December 18 2010 12:13 Liquid`Jinro wrote: As I said before, I guess the fact that SC2 looks so damn good now leads to higher expectations in the storyteling - theres way less room to make complete cheese when its a bunch of talking heads in a briefing room.
While it's true that SC1 had a more appropriate way of delivering the story (dialogue in the briefing room), I think it also did a better job with the cutscenes as well. In SC2 the cutscenes are just ridiculous... there's one where mutalisks are flying through space, because Blizz decided they needed to shoehorn in an "epic" space battle, than there's that other one where Jim and Tychus *appear* on Valarian's capital ship (how they boarded it, we'll never know...) with opera music playing and not one but twocliched close-ups of the grenade Raynor throws. And you of course already mentioned the random bar fight.
The cutscenes in SC2 were done in bad taste. SC1's were much better, and not because they had lower expectations, but because they were better thought out and directed. Take this one for example, it's probably the most linked SC cutscene, but w/e, it deserves to be it's just that awesome:Awesome Cutscene!!!
If SC2 had just remade SC1's cutscenes with better graphics, I'd be happy. Sadly we got the Frankenstein monster created by Chris Metzen himself. sigh.
You seem to get irritated quite easily. Did it annoy that mutilisks were "flapping through space" over the oribital platforms in SC1 too? If not, well congratulations... Your standards have clearly gone up since then.
Edit: and don't even get me started on the huge list of logistical shortcomings of BW. Just found a nice long essay describing these shortcomings in detail and supported them with some solid reasons, but I wouldn't want to spoil your fun by pointing them out to you.
Billy whenever I make a post about my dissatisfaction w/ SC2's "story" you always reply asking if I'm mad, and then allege that you wrote some essay about SC1's alleded flaws. Well that hypothetical essay doesn't matter to me, all I know is that while playing SC2 mutalisks were flying through deep space in a cutscene. If you think it's cool or epic to see that, that's your prerogative, as for me I think it's an insult to my intelligence and a cheap excuse for blizz to add a space battle cutscene.
You think SC1 had the same thing? I don't, the orbital platforms in SC1 were just that: in orbit, they were not in deep space. Furthermore that example happened in-game, not in a cutscene, things in-game are expected to be abstract. And lastly, I don't believe there was ever a story mission in SC1 where you fought zerg on a space platform - I remember stealing the Dominion's battlecruisers, destroying Mengsk's nuclear silo's, capturing the Confederacy's space station, but I do not ever recall engaging the zerg on an orbital platform.
Start at about 5.20.
And the very last mission of Brood Way, Omega.
I agree with you, the story was terrible, I'm just pointing out that "Mutalisks in space" has been an issue for the past 12 years.
Bah! Was looking for like 10 minutes to find that video.
But yes, at 5:20, that's when the Zerg relocate to Aiur through a dimensional rift in deep space.
Also, the orbital platform over Char is Kerrigan's base of operations. Like it has been said, this is the very last mission of Brood War, Omega.
This supports the Zerg traveling through space to get to the world where the Protoss make their last stand in the prophecy.
Remember how Bobby Kotick wants to charge for cinematics next? Well, more power to the consumer, I say! We can all just not bother with the cutscenes, saving some money in the process, and just go on like it never happened.
Just like those rumoured sequels to the Matrix that never were... Yep...
seriously don't think SC, WC1/2/3, or Diablo 1/2 are any better than SC2. WC3 was actually cringe worthy and I couldn't even get through the cutscenes so I think SC2 is better.
I completly disagree.
Warcraft 3's story was awesome, with much less clichés and charismatic characters dying. The mighty heroes from Lordaeron in their shiny armor fell to the the undead, and almost all of them died. The great mages of the Kirin Tor were annihilated by Archimonde. The last defenders of the world weren't proud knights fighting for justice, but living trees, druids who turned in animals and xenophobic elven amazons that had spent the last few millenias living in the forest.
To compare a few of the similar plotlines: The orcs shifting from bloodthirsty savages to more noble creatures was handled well, because it was NOT "hey they have always been good but we forced to do evil by demons." Lord of the Clan and Reign of Chaos went out of their way to explain that the orcs knew what they were doing when they attacked the human kingdoms, and that their leaders drank Mannoroth's blood willingly. The orcs may have been manipulated, but it was just that: manipulation and the thrill of arcane magic. They were fully responsible of their actions, and their story is an actual redemption: they had commited terrible crimes, but chamanism eventually pulled them out of their lethargy and they were now willing to leave in peace under a new, wiser leader.
Starcraft 2, on the other hand, claims that the Overmind had never been evil. The zerg don't need any redemption, because they weren't responsible for their crimes, someone else was controlling their moves. Warcraft 3 didn't retcon the fact that the orcs were bloothirsty brutes in Warcraft 2. Starcraft 2, on the other hand, retconned the fact that Kerrigan and the Overmind were bad guys in Starcraft 1.
Even the alliance between the three races was explained in a more satisfying way: the characters didn't ally because Medivh told them to, he reasonned with them, showing there was an imminent threat to all of them and that cooperation would be beneficial, until the characters eventually realised that they had more in common with the other factions than they thought. That cutscene in which Thrall, Cairne and Jaina ponder the fact that they are now allied against the Warsong is one of my favorite in all Blizzard games. Sure, the world would probably have been doomed if the characters hadn't allied with each other, but it was only the balance of forces that would have been different. Nothing was set in stone, even Medivh didn't "know" the future, he merely knew that the Legion was trying to come back, and that Kalimdor would be the best place to make a stand. Everything else was just about making the leaders realise they needed to go to Kalimdor and to ally with each other. He couldn't just walk in and say "go west and hug the orcs".
In WoL, on the other hand, that's exactly what happens. Zeratul popped out of nowhere and gave you a crystal showing that some bad guy we know nothing about is about to show up and that without Kerrigan, the universe is dead. No other option. Trust me, it's written in the Prophecy, so it will happen, and your own actions don't matter. And so Raynor and Zeratul follow the prophecy without question.
This is why, IMO, Warcraft 3's story is several orders of magnitude better than WoL's.
To compare a few of the similar plotlines: The orcs shifting from bloodthirsty savages to more noble creatures was handled well, because it was NOT "hey they have always been good but we forced to do evil by demons." Lord of the Clan and Reign of Chaos went out of their way to explain that the orcs knew what they were doing when they attacked the human kingdoms, and that their leaders drank Mannoroth's blood willingly. The orcs may have been manipulated, but it was just that: manipulation and the thrill of arcane magic. They were fully responsible of their actions, and their story is an actual redemption: they had commited terrible crimes, but chamanism eventually pulled them out of their lethargy and they were now willing to leave in peace under a new, wiser leader.
Starcraft 2, on the other hand, claims that the Overmind had never been evil. The zerg don't need any redemption, because they weren't responsible for their crimes, someone else was controlling their moves. Warcraft 3 didn't retcon the fact that the orcs were bloothirsty brutes in Warcraft 2. Starcraft 2, on the other hand, retconned the fact that Kerrigan and the Overmind were bad guys in Starcraft 1.
I actually think this is blatantly unfair to starcraft 2 and blatantly too generous to warcraft. Warcraft III clearly paints the orcs as a "noble, shamanistic race" when we've always known them as bloodthirsty brutes invading the lands of azeroth. I agree it was handled well, but this is a major retcon no matter how you look at it.
Honestly, I don't know why people are saying the Overmind was a good guy. No he wasn't. He just developed a plan to get free. That doesn't mean he wasn't planning on assimilating and conquering the entire universe. That's exactly what the Overmind was trying to do. I see absolutely nothing that states that the Zerg are not responsible for their crimes.
If anything, what I don't like is the fact that these actually interesting concepts are not discussed at all in all the cutscenes. Raynor is trying to save the woman who he swore to kill. Where's the internal struggle? Where's the indecision? Where does he try to figure out what to do? We don't see anything of the sort, and personally that's why starcraft 2 fails for me.
It's so confusing because the story seems so character-focused. But Raynor never seems to change or realize anything. He just saves Kerrigan. He never decides to save kerrigan. He never decides to kill her. The discussion is actually not really brought up at all. It's almost like they had these important conversations offscreen.
God I hope the intentions of this leak was to see fan-based opinions only to see all the negative receptions and rewrite the script and storyline. If it isn't, this game will further extend its disappointment...
Extend its disappointment? You mean the part where the Zerg become deeper than just some shallow extension of a terran? The video also insinuated a bunch of BW grimdark stuff like double crossings, betrayls and possibly even some new Zerg characters. I don't understand fans sometimes, isn't the kind of things implied by the leak what you people wanted more of from WoL?
On December 09 2010 10:49 Jibba wrote: Chris Metzen is the Stephanie Meyers of video games.
What's next, a dwarf shaman?
I think it's even worse when you consider his early work. Look through the elaborate Warcraft II manual, the art and story are so intricately dark and morose.
QFT the War 2 manual is by far the best thing ive ever seen from a videogame that is not the game itself, god the art was superb. The history was amazing, now that ive read you im even more dissapointed at sc2 that i was =/
Warcraft III clearly paints the orcs as a "noble, shamanistic race" when we've always known them as bloodthirsty brutes invading the lands of azeroth. I agree it was handled well, but this is a major retcon no matter how you look at it.
Okay, this is a retcon in the original meaning of "retroactive continuity". The orcs had once been a shamanistic race, which we didn't know in Warcraft 2. But the difference is that, as I said, this did not prevent the orcs from being actual bloodthirsty brutes. They were different before, fine, but when they invaded the human kingdoms they were still every bit as bad as you thought when you played Warcraft 2. It is only after their defeat that they began to change, and even then, they didn't become good all of a sudden. According to Lord of the Clans, they understood what demonic energies were because of their lethargy, and at first, they didn't join Thrall for moral reasons, but because it was a way out of the lethargy.
The orcs didn't become "good" because they were noble and shamanistic before Warcraft 1, but because they chose to be that way after Warcraft 2. Do you see what I mean?
Honestly, I don't know why people are saying the Overmind was a good guy. He just developed a plan to get free. That doesn't mean he wasn't planning on assimilating and conquering the entire universe. That's exactly what the Overmind was trying to do. I see absolutely nothing that states that the Zerg are not responsible for their crimes.
First there is the dialog between Tassadar and Zeratul. Tassadar claims that the Overmind was brave, Zeratul answers he was an abomination, and Tassadar tells him to "forget what he knows". In fact, he specifies the zerg were "altered". Which the majority of us interprets as "you thought he was evil? We were kidding you!" Then, the Overmind was unwilling to destroy the protoss, because the Dark Voice had to implant that "overriding directive" in him, which openly conflicts with the Starcraft 1 manual. I think the Dark Templar trilogy also claims that the Xel'naga would have the protoss and zerg merge peacefully, which implies that if they had it their way (ie if the Dark Voice hadn't interfered), the zerg weren't going to slaughter everything in their path. Could anyone confirm this?
On December 09 2010 10:49 Jibba wrote: Chris Metzen is the Stephanie Meyers of video games.
What's next, a dwarf shaman?
I think it's even worse when you consider his early work. Look through the elaborate Warcraft II manual, the art and story are so intricately dark and morose.
QFT the War 2 manual is by far the best thing ive ever seen from a videogame that is not the game itself, god the art was superb. The history was amazing, now that ive read you im even more dissapointed at sc2 that i was =/
Diablo 1 manual is up there as well, in terms of the artwork and feel.
On December 18 2010 06:10 FirstPanzerDiv wrote: When we were all 13 and playing sc1, we had less expectations for stories and complexities. Now that we're older, we have a quaint nostalgia for sc1 and dislike the 'cheesiness' of the sc2 plot.
Really none of the blizzard stories are great, but that's okay... the campaign will still be fun.
Eh, Ive replayed the SC1 and WC3 campaigns several times and they just do not have any moments that are as cringe worthy as, for instance, the random bar fight between Tychus and Raynor, nor is the plot so completely disconnected from itself (you learn Tychus has a bomb strapped to himself halfway through the campaign, and yet do nothing whatsoever about it? the Hansen/Hanson whatever sideplot has no consequences at all etc).
As I said before, I guess the fact that SC2 looks so damn good now leads to higher expectations in the storyteling - theres way less room to make complete cheese when its a bunch of talking heads in a briefing room. And for WC3, well, its fantasy so even tho things get cheesy at times it fits better IMO, and its not the same kind of cheese either.
There is a great line in this review where he compares SC1 Zeratul's
You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
You guys are missing a critical distinction. Warcraft was always meant to be the sort of campy, generic, feelgood fantasyland nonsense it is in Warcraft 3 and WoW (TFT notwithstanding). They have stated as much in several interviews. That's why they shoved all of this incredibly contrived fluff into it like magic dragons and talking gnolls and crazy steampunk technology and whatnot. It was meant to be a sort of campy homage to other high fantasy universes with a generic humans vs orcs plot, expecting some kind of fantastic writing out of it is pretty uncalled for given that it was always meant to be like, the series for children.
The Diablo series was meant to be like this serious, grimdark horror game that mimics the feeling of earlier roguelikes where you adventure deep into unknown dungeons and slay terrible monsters, and there's all kinds of demons and undead mobs and stuffs. The plot is really just some excuse holding the series together so there's really no need for high expectations there either. It was always a semi-action game meant for you to have fun killing tons and tons of dudes with blood and gore everywhere, not some kind of epic dark fantasy novel.
Starcraft however, was where Blizzard intended to break the mold. Sure, the space western and space opera stuff and campy cinematics were also meant to be a homage to earlier space western series and all of the very obvious sci-fi cliches like space marines and alien bugs were a tribute to other series like W40K. But the plot was very serious and the characters very real despite the semi-fantastical setting because it was meant to be that way. The writing was good, BW maybe not as much, but it was a beacon of light in the otherwise generic darkness of Blizzardland. It was meant to be like this epic character-focused multi-narrative story taking place in several acts, and it made usage of such devices we hadn't seen in video gaming at that time like limited point of view contrast. The technology of the time (talking heads lolol) limited the efficacy of any writing techniques the writers could utilize so they had to compensate with dialogue, and that was where the magic of SC+BW came from. Not the generic space marine vs bugs plot or all the grimdark backstabbing in BW. It was the characters and their interactions that provided the drama and thrust the plot of the series.
In WoL there's nothing. Just a drunk dude who's saving a girl who's going to do something. The epic, almost Shakespearean at times, dialogue has been replaced with Michael Bay lines and random cliched space western banter, and the crucial drama and internalization of the multifaceted characters have been replaced with fancy, high-tech fight scenes and lines that range from at times, generic sci-fi (the hounds... OF THE VOIDDDD) to dime-store romance novel trash (DON'T GIVE UP!). Not to mention the plot, so poorly and insufficiently explained as it is in WoL, is so illogical and stupid and none of the plot devices make any sense. You see I would accept the idea of another "everyone vs ancient evil" sci-fi plot if the basics were at least clear. But they're not. What we have in WoL is just a poorly-written stepping stone to a further generic epic sci-fi plot, a game without even a functional plot that promises us the rest of the story will be told if we shell out another $120.
When you start looking at it from another angle (ie Kotick) and realize the team scrapped much of their plot from WoL late in the development cycle when they decided to switch the game into a three-release model, not to mention all of the changes to Bnet2.0 and the game to get it to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, it all starts to make sense. Now I'm not going to go into any detail as to ActiBlizz's business plans (there's a whole other thread on that that's like 500 pages), but I think the logical conclusion here is pretty obvious and thoroughly explains the crap that was WoL.
It was Valarians scheme. He's basically like Duran at this point, only better because Valarian is human, so he'd have more relatable motives and ambitionsthan helping the fallen one to switch off the lights for the universe.
Cant believe some people are saying d1/wc/sc didnt have great stories and universes... its not that they were super complex stories (the manuals and stuff gave a lot of awesome detail yes, but the games themselves werent), its that they were believable and well executed. The games put you in a whole new universe that you cared about, that you feel involved in, like watching a movie unfold. Things happen around you as you command your factions armies.
No idea why people think raynor is some badass. Hes just some named unit in sc1. having a game centered around him was an insta-fail IMO. Also, no manual equal to all other blizzard games? That was a HUGE disappointment. blizzard manuals were always so amazing and its a real shame they are moving away from them... kind of consistent with the lack good quality storylines and writing lol.
EDIT:
In sc1/wc/d1 the stories were believable. it wasnt the good guy wins, the good guy kills all the bad dudes and gets the girl, etc. No. Stormwind gets owned. The hero who slayed diablo has to implant the soulstone to keep him contained. Aiur gets owned. Mengsk gains control. Kerrigan gets infested. Etc. This were BELIEVABLE outcomes. Whereas sc2, Jim *SUPERBADASS* raynor, with his rag-tag band of mercs, seem to defy all logic and achieve everything they set out to do, and more. Thats just not believable. If sc2 was believable, you best believe general warfield died, horner dies, mengsk swoops in with the other half of his fleet after raynor clears out char and crushes everyone remaining and abducts kerrigan, hyperion gets owned at some point losing most of the crew... i dont know. The point is, what happens in sc2 is a joke.
You can make the argument that the other stories werent much better, but if you have more than 10 years to make a game, no rush to release it, and take your damn sweet time, you better put something out there that is better or at LEAST equal. That is why people are complaining.
I cant stop thinking about this stupid story that sc has become. A real shame. Maybe in the expansions we will see some super cool features to attract gamers such as slow motion sequences like COD.
Sam, it's stupid when it's Jim, but not when Sarah *SUPERBADASS* Kerrigan,defeats three fleets with a small number of Zerg? I think that you need to think about it some more.
On December 21 2010 13:00 Billy_ wrote: Sam, it's stupid when it's Jim, but not when Sarah *SUPERBADASS* Kerrigan,defeats three fleets with a small number of Zerg? I think that you need to think about it some more.
EPT
