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Beef with Storyline-The Blizzard Writing Formula - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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Spawkuring
Profile Joined July 2008
United States755 Posts
August 01 2010 22:41 GMT
#41
On August 02 2010 02:34 RetroDeatRow wrote:
I wanted to start a new topic and proclaim that Blizzard needed to fire their art crew. This tread seems relevant enough to that crusade. So, ... Blizzard needs to fire like everyone.

The story, as has been pointed out, was quite terrible. The Hybrids look like Night Elf Demons or something; the Protoss look more like elves than the Eldar of Warhammer; and Raynor got hair?!

But that is all the aesthetic. In the story, doing missions was quite fun. What killed my buzz was when Mengsk's Blood Elf son showed up and Raynor had a personality shift. Was Raynor drinking throughout the whole game because he couldn't kill Zerg on Char? And now hes got that chance and is a reformed man?

And General Mega-Man? Seriously!

Starcraft 2 was good when there was no important story. As soon as its gets to important story, it feels uncomfortable.

The things is, Blizzard needs to go through the entire SC2 team, find out who likes elves and then terminate their role on SC2 development. That there is a cutscene that shows off a bunch of dead marines coupled with the sad music means the developers have no idea what is going on. Between 'elite' marines and 'elite' Mengsks and 'elite' Horner... I just have to wonder if these guys even played Broodwar. Elf=Elite, and that shit is boring.

Broodwar introduced many characters, the likes of which like none have returned. There is no general duke, we get some European stereotype of an American general. Tosh (the Jamaican, seriously?) should have been Samir Duran-- of which Raynor wouldn't know what was up but BW vets would. And how did Kerrigan go from assassin of the Zerg to ultralisk+life? Her reveal in this game was piss poor, as her execution.

Yeah yeah, the missions are well designed and fun, but the story sucks. Makes me not want to purchase HOTS. I guess if they add Reavers into the map editor, I might be so inclined


I have problems with the SC2 story as well, but this post is just dumb. Not once in the entire game did I ever see something that was elf-ish in anyway. In fact you seem to have a completely irrational hatred of anything elven. I mean I'm not too big on elves either, but I didn't see any trace of them in this game, and you'd have to be really stretching it if you found them here.
Doc Daneeka
Profile Joined March 2010
United States577 Posts
August 01 2010 22:59 GMT
#42
click the tag if you want to read this friggin essay, otherwise tldr version: i think some of the complaints about the story are unfair but i agree there's some plot holes too and we'll have to wait and see if this was an appropriate set-up for the rest of the story.


+ Show Spoiler +
i think it's a big mistake to say stuff like 'the zerg were evil, now they're good'. the strength of blizzard's writing is that they don't deal in easy black and white terms like that. the characters and factions are complicated. terrans aren't 'good' - they're human. there's the dominion and before that the confederacy. the zerg weren't ever 'evil', they're just zerg - a huge threat to other lifeforms, but totally feral, that'd be like calling zombies evil. zombies are brainless. the infection is extremely dangerous but you don't assign intention to it. even with kerrigan and the overmind, both were part of the zerg biological imperative to absorb other lifeforms. plus kerrigan has that human side to her, but it's the bitter vengeful parts of being human.

or like in warcraft - the forsaken aren't 'good' necessarily. they have terrible personalities and they don't like anyone else. but they've escaped the control of both the legion and arthas. they can't take on all the races of azeroth by themselves, so they make alliances, because that's the reasonable thing to do. it'd be suicide otherwise. they do this with other horde races too. trolls are still nasty creatures with surly attitudes, they worship nasty entities and they perform sacrifices. it's just that a particular tribe is trying to conform to a larger society out of respect and gratitude. same with the blood elves - they sit on the fence, force themselves to remain somewhat civilized but they still indulge in pretty evil behaviors. actually that's why i like the horde better - it has these complicated races that don't neatly fall into 'good' or 'evil'. lots of orcs still have brutal, rage-filled mentalities, but under the direction of thrall they've tried to make their society more civilized, and they continue to do so because it benefits them in the long run - the legion and the old gods are just way more dangerous so the horde and the alliance refrain from all out war, but they stay separate because they disagree and therefore they continue to make alliances with other races to keep each other in check.

or take people like illidan, or arthas. they're terrible beings now, but they're also sympathetic characters, they had tragic flaws and it led to their downfalls. and even at their lowest and most evil, they're still both at odds with the legion. and even the legion itself has its roots somewhere, supposedly sargaras was corrupted by someone, i think maybe even the dreadlords. this is what i like about blizzard's rts writing - allegiances and races are complicated, much like in the real world. there's not good and evil - just good and evil actions, and degrees of good and evil. obviously the legion is evil. but even that has its roots. in real life, the nazis were obviously evil. hitler was obviously evil. that doesn't mean germany is evil. things are complicated. in warcraft, the forsaken didn't just decide to be evil one day. they were infected and then controlled by necromancers. sylvanas took that control away and gave it back to some of the undead, creating the forsaken. they're still nasy bitter people, but they have free will, so they do reasonable things like make alliances because it's the smart thing to do. in starcraft, the zerg didn't just up and decide to be evil cos they felt like it. they're basically an infection, and an infection is evolved to spread and get stronger. you don't say a parasite is evil, it's just bad to get infected.

now kerrigan became a nasty person, but she's just wrapped up in the infection like all the other creatures in the swarm. she ACTS evil, but those 'evil' qualities are more than likely just the most well adapted to leading the swarm and infecting more organisms. also, she's extremely powerful and extremely smart - smart enough to realize that the dark voice/xelnaga/whatever are far more powerful than her. don't think it's out of character at all for her to decide everyone is doomed. seems perfectly in line with her personality. doesn't mean she won't fight back to her dying breath. also you have to take into account the possibility that she was playing mind games with zeratul. saying that 'we're all doomed', basically, in that situation, seemed designed to rattle zeratul, whether she meant it or not (i'm thinking she meant it but i digress.)

i do think there's some plot holes - i'm not sure i like that they gave kerrigan her humanity back. seems too easy. i'll give blizzard the benefit of the doubt and see how it unfolds in the next expansion, but for now i have mixed feelings. it does seem kinda iffy that raynor wanted to bring her back so badly after saying he'd kill her. but then, he's had 4 years to sit there, in an alcoholic rut, beating himself up with guilt for what happened to her. then someone comes along and says this artifact can bring her back (a little too convenient but i'm gonna suspend belief here for a moment) so obviously he's going to take the opportunity. my biggest complaint is that it seems too easy. the big thing that's different from before is the artifact, so i'm guessing that's what made the whole invasion of char doable.

i also agree that not a lot happened in the terran part of the campaign until char. it seems like it's just setting us up for the next expansion, cos there's no sign of what happened after mengsk was ousted. the artifacts part was fine cos that all leads up to the kerrigan storyline and makes perfect sense, mengsk had everything to do with that - tychus was under orders to get the artifact using raynor's help and kill kerrigan if he got the chance. makes sense to me. the campaign seems like it has a ton of foreshadowing without it coming to fruition. like i've already said, we'll have to wait and see if it was an appropriate set-up for the rest of the story.
payed off security
Adjudicator
Profile Joined May 2010
United States44 Posts
August 01 2010 23:02 GMT
#43
On August 02 2010 07:25 beetlelisk wrote:

Show nested quote +
On August 02 2010 06:52 Adjudicator wrote:
All I can say is

Starcraft 1: Rated M for Mature

Starcraft 2: Rated T for Teen.

Have fun making money, Blizzard.

From wikipedia
Rating(s)
ELSPA: 15+
ESRB: T (originally M)
OFLC: (AUS) M
OFLC: (NZ) R16+
PEGI: 16+

Rating is basically the same. I think devs simply gave up about challenging original SC (before BW)story. Even old unit costs (except for Vulture only?) are changed to make new units more appealing :/


The point being that SC1 was marketed for adults. SC2 is being marketed for teens. Clearly the kind of thought that went into the original is not the kind of thought that has gone into SC2 - neither would an M-rated material be developed in the way a T-rated material would be. Not to mention Blizzard is a much different company now than it was 12 years ago. SC2 has obviously been marketed to appeal to teens, a much wider audience to make money off of. Hence the teeny-bopper, feel-good story where they can't even show a single death on screen to preserve their T rating (and thus spurring countless pointless arguments about how Tychus is still alive when it clearly says in the message screen that he's dead after you beat the campaign).
Spawkuring
Profile Joined July 2008
United States755 Posts
August 01 2010 23:18 GMT
#44
On August 02 2010 08:02 Adjudicator wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2010 07:25 beetlelisk wrote:

On August 02 2010 06:52 Adjudicator wrote:
All I can say is

Starcraft 1: Rated M for Mature

Starcraft 2: Rated T for Teen.

Have fun making money, Blizzard.

From wikipedia
Rating(s)
ELSPA: 15+
ESRB: T (originally M)
OFLC: (AUS) M
OFLC: (NZ) R16+
PEGI: 16+

Rating is basically the same. I think devs simply gave up about challenging original SC (before BW)story. Even old unit costs (except for Vulture only?) are changed to make new units more appealing :/


The point being that SC1 was marketed for adults. SC2 is being marketed for teens. Clearly the kind of thought that went into the original is not the kind of thought that has gone into SC2 - neither would an M-rated material be developed in the way a T-rated material would be. Not to mention Blizzard is a much different company now than it was 12 years ago. SC2 has obviously been marketed to appeal to teens, a much wider audience to make money off of. Hence the teeny-bopper, feel-good story where they can't even show a single death on screen to preserve their T rating (and thus spurring countless pointless arguments about how Tychus is still alive when it clearly says in the message screen that he's dead after you beat the campaign).


I find it hard to believe that ANY Blizzard game would ever be marketed to adults rather than teens. SC1 even has a teen rating today, and only got a mature rating because the standards were more conservative back then. Talk to any long-time Blizzard fan, and I can guarantee you that the vast majority of them got into Blizzard games when they were kids or teens. Even most Blizzard interviews have employees like Samwise and Metzen, both who have been with Blizzard since the beginning, admit that they are huge comic book geeks and inject lots of it into their work.

Sorry, but you'll have a real hard time convincing me that Blizzard has ever been a sophisticated adults company. It's a company made by geeks, for geeks.

The main problem is just that the major lore writers are losing their touch. Blizzard claims that they have tons of writers who check the lore and even a lore encyclopedia, but it's obvious that they don't care for lore integrity as much as they claim. Chris Metzen in particular seems to be growing more and more forgetful going by the MASSIVE retcons in Warcraft, and the rampant copy-pasting plot that's going on in SC2. Hybrids are basically just the Burning Legion with a different coat of paint, and the Zerg are rapidly becoming the next Orcs. Copy/paste has always been Metzen's main flaw as a writer (coughWarhammercough), but it's getting really bad now.

Whatever the cause may be, Blizzard needs to really step back and change how they approach writing, because it has undeniably gone downhill over the years. It's just frustrating when the creators themselves make mistakes that fans would have caught and shot down right from the get-go. It's happens to a lot of stories, but it's even more upsetting that it's happening to Blizzard because they used to always been on the level with this sort of thing. I dunno, maybe hire more writers, or even have Chris Metzen step down as a writer. If it makes for a better story, I'm for it, because games CAN be fun and have excellent writing at the same time.
DocM
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States212 Posts
August 01 2010 23:36 GMT
#45
Daneeka, i didn't mean to imply that the zerg were evil. In no way shape or form. I agree that all of the races are just different with different motivations and goals. It is definitely more gray than black or white. When i said zerg i meant overmind. The overmind is what i was getting at. He seemed evil or at least greedy enough to me, wanting to control the zerg, expand its influence, kill terran planets, invade auir, ect. ect. But now he isnt evil just mind controlled. Thats not to say that there weren't other bad/worse characters in the game (im looking at you mengst and duran)...

Another plot whole i found was Tychus. So mengst sprung tychus out of prison in order to assassinate Kerrigan.

Mengst assumes that
1. Tychus will find Raynor
2. Raynor will lead Tychus to Kerrigan eventually
3. Raynor will pull a fleet to invade char out of his ass so he can get to Kerrigan (its plausible that he used Prince Valerian to help Raynor, or something to that effect, but Mengst seemed sincerely surprised when Valerian told him about the invasion, he even seemed really pissed off... So i doubt it. And even if we accept this to be true, Mengst assumes that Raynor will Cooperate with Valerian despite his instincts)
4. Neither Raynor nor Tychus will die inbetween now and then, despite Mengst actively trying to kill them
5. The Xel Naga Artifacts will weaken Kerrigan enough to get her killable by a lowly marine like Tychus
6. Kerrigan wont find any of the Artifacts and Raynor will succesfully assemble them all for use.
7. Tychus will accompany Raynor to find Kerrigan after she gets uninfested
8. Tychus wont explain his situation to Raynor, his best friend...

It all seems kind of silly when you think about it.
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
August 01 2010 23:55 GMT
#46
My biggest problem with the campaign is that you can advance the story without finishing all the missions and the effect that has on the story. Char felt to me like the game assumes you didn't finish the Protoss missions and the Mengsk storyline. People like Horner were arguing with Raynor about saving Kerrigan even though Raynor shared Zeratul's vision with them. The Arcturus and Valerian dialogue seemed to assume the revelations from the Media Blitz mission never happened.

And the hybrids aren't really the Burning Legion. It seems actually closer to the Old Gods in World of Warcraft. The "Dark Voice", from reading some of the background story on it wikia sites sounds like a Warcraft Old God. The background story came from novels and comics, I believe.

And Mass Effect has to be one of the most overrated series ever. SC2's story is a copy of War3's story but Mass Effect and Dragon Age are copies of KoTOR's story, too. Every single Bioware game after KoTOR is all about finding the Star Maps on an open world. The gameplay is generic 3ps as well, there's barely any RPG elements at all.
DocSnyder
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany137 Posts
August 01 2010 23:55 GMT
#47
On August 02 2010 01:23 DocM wrote:
Id like to nip this perception that this game is the equivilant of the terran campaign in SC in the bud.

Thats just plain wrong. If you look at it that way, you are ignoring all of BW...
Unless you are assuming there will be an expansion trilogy to the trilogy of expansion packs were getting, then i dont see why you would see it that way.

In reality, this should be two SC campaigns= one SC2 campaign.

Furthermore, while the game admittedly focused on a few more characters to make up for a lack of some... events....
It really didnt seem like the characters in sc2 were all that memorable. I think Tychus
+ Show Spoiler +
who dies in the end anyway
, swan, and tosh were the only characters that had any depth at all. Seriously, even good ol jimmy has lost direction and depth of character. He contradicts himself from sc1 all the time (killing kerrigan lol, although technically hes not allowed to because of zeratuls warning; but this argument doesnt stand up because really Jimmy seems like he really wants to save Kerrigan. He isnt doing it because of some prophecy, just because he wants his girlfriend back).
Raynor delivers the same old lines over and over again. I dont understand how they made the one honest man become Woody from Toy Story... (note the pull string on his back)


Disagree,disagree,disagree,disagree

I think Rainers character really grows and fluctuates throwout the story and since sc1.....Hes a different man then,believes in freedom,fights for justice and longs for a normal life,preferably with kerrigan....

Alot of that is gone in sc2,hes bitter from all the betrayals,despises Karrigan for all the deaths she caused,yet he still want that life...with her.So hes very conflicted about what he should do ...put a bullet in her head of try to redeem her,sometimes for hes own selfish reason.


Hes no longer and idealist,even in hes fight with Mengsk,he seem more practical a lot of the time...going for money and results,rather than going for it the morally right way....Teaming up with Tosh and so on..

In come Tychas and Matt to serve as the moraly-opposed factors in his life....

He fight with those issues for the whole story,until in the end finally he once again becomes the man he was in his youth.....
Honesly sc2 had a few very well developed characters...,and probably was all were going to get in terms of human soul searching and depth....
HOTS and LOTV are going to move to other things....
Damn i cant max this game:(
aseq
Profile Joined January 2003
Netherlands3973 Posts
August 02 2010 00:05 GMT
#48
Hahaha the elf post cracked me up!

I though the storyline was really short as well, we really didn't need 25 missions for that. But the missions themselves were diverse, so well done. I didn't feel bored at all, it's getting the rest of the achievements that makes me feel bored. And the way the difficulty levels/campaign progress/upgrades are a Huge mess.

Now how are they going to make a Zerg Campaign in this way? Surely they're not going to show cutscenes of Zergs talking to each other and some cerebrates? Or will they show Terran cutscenes but you still play Zerg?
DocSnyder
Profile Joined June 2010
Germany137 Posts
August 02 2010 00:06 GMT
#49
On August 02 2010 08:36 DocM wrote:
Daneeka, i didn't mean to imply that the zerg were evil. In no way shape or form. I agree that all of the races are just different with different motivations and goals. It is definitely more gray than black or white. When i said zerg i meant overmind. The overmind is what i was getting at. He seemed evil or at least greedy enough to me, wanting to control the zerg, expand its influence, kill terran planets, invade auir, ect. ect. But now he isnt evil just mind controlled. Thats not to say that there weren't other bad/worse characters in the game (im looking at you mengst and duran)...

Another plot whole i found was Tychus. So mengst sprung tychus out of prison in order to assassinate Kerrigan.

Mengst assumes that
1. Tychus will find Raynor
2. Raynor will lead Tychus to Kerrigan eventually
3. Raynor will pull a fleet to invade char out of his ass so he can get to Kerrigan (its plausible that he used Prince Valerian to help Raynor, or something to that effect, but Mengst seemed sincerely surprised when Valerian told him about the invasion, he even seemed really pissed off... So i doubt it. And even if we accept this to be true, Mengst assumes that Raynor will Cooperate with Valerian despite his instincts)
4. Neither Raynor nor Tychus will die inbetween now and then, despite Mengst actively trying to kill them
5. The Xel Naga Artifacts will weaken Kerrigan enough to get her killable by a lowly marine like Tychus
6. Kerrigan wont find any of the Artifacts and Raynor will succesfully assemble them all for use.
7. Tychus will accompany Raynor to find Kerrigan after she gets uninfested
8. Tychus wont explain his situation to Raynor, his best friend...

It all seems kind of silly when you think about it.


Youre over-assuming Mengst had some grand master plan to takeout Kerrigan.... when in fact he was simply using one of his assets,a convict who otherwise would serve no real purpose,yet this way is an Ace up Mengst sleeves,doesnt mean he had no other cards ,hes just being practical and using all the assets,a man in his position would have.....

Embedding and Agent in Raynors crew is just plain smart,i doubt Mengst knew how things were going to go,but when the time came he had an ace concealed against his sons own ambitions and Rainors rebellion.....

Still if things had gone differently he might have used him to sabotage Raynor,Its just smart thinking witch got he to where he was as Emperor, however Mengst does hate Kerrigan a lot more than Rainer,hes just small time in his eyes,where she is a real threat to hiss whole empire....
Damn i cant max this game:(
heishe
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Germany2284 Posts
August 02 2010 00:21 GMT
#50
imo what made the blizz stories good were the characters, not the overarching plot (in general), and that hasn't changed.
If you value your soul, never look into the eye of a horse. Your soul will forever be lost in the void of the horse.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-02 00:38:43
August 02 2010 00:33 GMT
#51
On August 02 2010 07:41 Spawkuring wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2010 02:34 RetroDeatRow wrote:
I wanted to start a new topic and proclaim that Blizzard needed to fire their art crew. This tread seems relevant enough to that crusade. So, ... Blizzard needs to fire like everyone.

The story, as has been pointed out, was quite terrible. The Hybrids look like Night Elf Demons or something; the Protoss look more like elves than the Eldar of Warhammer; and Raynor got hair?!

But that is all the aesthetic. In the story, doing missions was quite fun. What killed my buzz was when Mengsk's Blood Elf son showed up and Raynor had a personality shift. Was Raynor drinking throughout the whole game because he couldn't kill Zerg on Char? And now hes got that chance and is a reformed man?

And General Mega-Man? Seriously!

Starcraft 2 was good when there was no important story. As soon as its gets to important story, it feels uncomfortable.

The things is, Blizzard needs to go through the entire SC2 team, find out who likes elves and then terminate their role on SC2 development. That there is a cutscene that shows off a bunch of dead marines coupled with the sad music means the developers have no idea what is going on. Between 'elite' marines and 'elite' Mengsks and 'elite' Horner... I just have to wonder if these guys even played Broodwar. Elf=Elite, and that shit is boring.

Broodwar introduced many characters, the likes of which like none have returned. There is no general duke, we get some European stereotype of an American general. Tosh (the Jamaican, seriously?) should have been Samir Duran-- of which Raynor wouldn't know what was up but BW vets would. And how did Kerrigan go from assassin of the Zerg to ultralisk+life? Her reveal in this game was piss poor, as her execution.

Yeah yeah, the missions are well designed and fun, but the story sucks. Makes me not want to purchase HOTS. I guess if they add Reavers into the map editor, I might be so inclined


I have problems with the SC2 story as well, but this post is just dumb. Not once in the entire game did I ever see something that was elf-ish in anyway. In fact you seem to have a completely irrational hatred of anything elven. I mean I'm not too big on elves either, but I didn't see any trace of them in this game, and you'd have to be really stretching it if you found them here.


If you can't see how pathetically elf-like the Protoss have become, you're blind.

imo what made the blizz stories good were the characters, not the overarching plot (in general), and that hasn't changed.


Except that there aren't any good characters in WoL...
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Spawkuring
Profile Joined July 2008
United States755 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-02 00:38:34
August 02 2010 00:37 GMT
#52
On August 02 2010 09:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2010 07:41 Spawkuring wrote:
On August 02 2010 02:34 RetroDeatRow wrote:
I wanted to start a new topic and proclaim that Blizzard needed to fire their art crew. This tread seems relevant enough to that crusade. So, ... Blizzard needs to fire like everyone.

The story, as has been pointed out, was quite terrible. The Hybrids look like Night Elf Demons or something; the Protoss look more like elves than the Eldar of Warhammer; and Raynor got hair?!

But that is all the aesthetic. In the story, doing missions was quite fun. What killed my buzz was when Mengsk's Blood Elf son showed up and Raynor had a personality shift. Was Raynor drinking throughout the whole game because he couldn't kill Zerg on Char? And now hes got that chance and is a reformed man?

And General Mega-Man? Seriously!

Starcraft 2 was good when there was no important story. As soon as its gets to important story, it feels uncomfortable.

The things is, Blizzard needs to go through the entire SC2 team, find out who likes elves and then terminate their role on SC2 development. That there is a cutscene that shows off a bunch of dead marines coupled with the sad music means the developers have no idea what is going on. Between 'elite' marines and 'elite' Mengsks and 'elite' Horner... I just have to wonder if these guys even played Broodwar. Elf=Elite, and that shit is boring.

Broodwar introduced many characters, the likes of which like none have returned. There is no general duke, we get some European stereotype of an American general. Tosh (the Jamaican, seriously?) should have been Samir Duran-- of which Raynor wouldn't know what was up but BW vets would. And how did Kerrigan go from assassin of the Zerg to ultralisk+life? Her reveal in this game was piss poor, as her execution.

Yeah yeah, the missions are well designed and fun, but the story sucks. Makes me not want to purchase HOTS. I guess if they add Reavers into the map editor, I might be so inclined


I have problems with the SC2 story as well, but this post is just dumb. Not once in the entire game did I ever see something that was elf-ish in anyway. In fact you seem to have a completely irrational hatred of anything elven. I mean I'm not too big on elves either, but I didn't see any trace of them in this game, and you'd have to be really stretching it if you found them here.


If you can't see how pathetically elf-like the Protoss have become, you're blind.


His complaints were regarding everything looking like elves, not acting like them, i.e. an art-style complaint. Everything acts far less badass in this game, but that's mostly due to poor writing and less enthusiastic voice acting. I don't see what that has to do with elves.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
August 02 2010 00:40 GMT
#53
On August 02 2010 09:37 Spawkuring wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2010 09:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On August 02 2010 07:41 Spawkuring wrote:
On August 02 2010 02:34 RetroDeatRow wrote:
I wanted to start a new topic and proclaim that Blizzard needed to fire their art crew. This tread seems relevant enough to that crusade. So, ... Blizzard needs to fire like everyone.

The story, as has been pointed out, was quite terrible. The Hybrids look like Night Elf Demons or something; the Protoss look more like elves than the Eldar of Warhammer; and Raynor got hair?!

But that is all the aesthetic. In the story, doing missions was quite fun. What killed my buzz was when Mengsk's Blood Elf son showed up and Raynor had a personality shift. Was Raynor drinking throughout the whole game because he couldn't kill Zerg on Char? And now hes got that chance and is a reformed man?

And General Mega-Man? Seriously!

Starcraft 2 was good when there was no important story. As soon as its gets to important story, it feels uncomfortable.

The things is, Blizzard needs to go through the entire SC2 team, find out who likes elves and then terminate their role on SC2 development. That there is a cutscene that shows off a bunch of dead marines coupled with the sad music means the developers have no idea what is going on. Between 'elite' marines and 'elite' Mengsks and 'elite' Horner... I just have to wonder if these guys even played Broodwar. Elf=Elite, and that shit is boring.

Broodwar introduced many characters, the likes of which like none have returned. There is no general duke, we get some European stereotype of an American general. Tosh (the Jamaican, seriously?) should have been Samir Duran-- of which Raynor wouldn't know what was up but BW vets would. And how did Kerrigan go from assassin of the Zerg to ultralisk+life? Her reveal in this game was piss poor, as her execution.

Yeah yeah, the missions are well designed and fun, but the story sucks. Makes me not want to purchase HOTS. I guess if they add Reavers into the map editor, I might be so inclined


I have problems with the SC2 story as well, but this post is just dumb. Not once in the entire game did I ever see something that was elf-ish in anyway. In fact you seem to have a completely irrational hatred of anything elven. I mean I'm not too big on elves either, but I didn't see any trace of them in this game, and you'd have to be really stretching it if you found them here.


If you can't see how pathetically elf-like the Protoss have become, you're blind.


His complaints were regarding everything looking like elves, not acting like them, i.e. an art-style complaint. Everything acts far less badass in this game, but that's mostly due to poor writing and less enthusiastic voice acting. I don't see what that has to do with elves.


Protoss art has become more and more elf-like - just look at the concept art. There are a couple pictures that look like they were ripped right out of the Burning Crusade art book and slapped into the WoL one. Also, the Hybrids have much the same look - flowy, angular features that look entirely too much like Elves.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Spawkuring
Profile Joined July 2008
United States755 Posts
August 02 2010 00:47 GMT
#54
On August 02 2010 09:40 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 02 2010 09:37 Spawkuring wrote:
On August 02 2010 09:33 Stratos_speAr wrote:
On August 02 2010 07:41 Spawkuring wrote:
On August 02 2010 02:34 RetroDeatRow wrote:
I wanted to start a new topic and proclaim that Blizzard needed to fire their art crew. This tread seems relevant enough to that crusade. So, ... Blizzard needs to fire like everyone.

The story, as has been pointed out, was quite terrible. The Hybrids look like Night Elf Demons or something; the Protoss look more like elves than the Eldar of Warhammer; and Raynor got hair?!

But that is all the aesthetic. In the story, doing missions was quite fun. What killed my buzz was when Mengsk's Blood Elf son showed up and Raynor had a personality shift. Was Raynor drinking throughout the whole game because he couldn't kill Zerg on Char? And now hes got that chance and is a reformed man?

And General Mega-Man? Seriously!

Starcraft 2 was good when there was no important story. As soon as its gets to important story, it feels uncomfortable.

The things is, Blizzard needs to go through the entire SC2 team, find out who likes elves and then terminate their role on SC2 development. That there is a cutscene that shows off a bunch of dead marines coupled with the sad music means the developers have no idea what is going on. Between 'elite' marines and 'elite' Mengsks and 'elite' Horner... I just have to wonder if these guys even played Broodwar. Elf=Elite, and that shit is boring.

Broodwar introduced many characters, the likes of which like none have returned. There is no general duke, we get some European stereotype of an American general. Tosh (the Jamaican, seriously?) should have been Samir Duran-- of which Raynor wouldn't know what was up but BW vets would. And how did Kerrigan go from assassin of the Zerg to ultralisk+life? Her reveal in this game was piss poor, as her execution.

Yeah yeah, the missions are well designed and fun, but the story sucks. Makes me not want to purchase HOTS. I guess if they add Reavers into the map editor, I might be so inclined


I have problems with the SC2 story as well, but this post is just dumb. Not once in the entire game did I ever see something that was elf-ish in anyway. In fact you seem to have a completely irrational hatred of anything elven. I mean I'm not too big on elves either, but I didn't see any trace of them in this game, and you'd have to be really stretching it if you found them here.


If you can't see how pathetically elf-like the Protoss have become, you're blind.


His complaints were regarding everything looking like elves, not acting like them, i.e. an art-style complaint. Everything acts far less badass in this game, but that's mostly due to poor writing and less enthusiastic voice acting. I don't see what that has to do with elves.


Protoss art has become more and more elf-like - just look at the concept art. There are a couple pictures that look like they were ripped right out of the Burning Crusade art book and slapped into the WoL one. Also, the Hybrids have much the same look - flowy, angular features that look entirely too much like Elves.


You're gonna have to post examples. I've never seen anything that looks more "elf-like" more than they already do. Protoss have always been slightly elven in nature because they're literally based off the elf archetype: advanced, arrogant, elegant, usually few in number. The art's obviously different in some ways, but that can be applied to all Blizzard art since it's changed over the years. But again, I still can't see much elf influence unless you have some kind of irrational hatred for them.
chair
Profile Joined August 2010
United States58 Posts
August 02 2010 04:03 GMT
#55
Honestly SC2 could have had a passable plot if it managed to not fail on every aspect of storytelling.

For instance if the story was actually epic, I could have dealt with 1 dimensional characters. Or if the plot twists weren't telegraphed from the starting cinematic. If any one aspect of the plot was actually believable and well written, it could have been passable.

Because all of the missions were approachable from any direction at any time before char, you're left with a jumbled mess of episodic levels. There's no build up and thus no tension, and finally no history for the characters to build upon and explore. I'd point to the mission system as the fundamental flaw of the entire game, forcing the writing staff to approach each new situation as if nothing else in the game had transpired. They honestly should have just had a mostly linear game with some key divergent levels. It basically feels like playing a ton of side missions until you hit char.

Finally, how on earth the writing team decided on the ending is beyond me. That ending would have been so much better had they.... + Show Spoiler +
not told Raynor that the artifact will turn Kerrigan back, simply stating that it kills all Zerg or all lower level zerg, forcing him to come to a decision to use the artifact against his personal wishes; finding Kerrigan still alive would have then been a surprise for both the player and for Raynor, and made for a much more interesting ending interaction between all the characters. This would have conflicted with the Zeratul storyline, but I'm sure some creative writing could have worked around this.
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
August 02 2010 05:53 GMT
#56
This is how I feel about the Zerg in general:
[image loading]
Disastorm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States922 Posts
August 02 2010 07:15 GMT
#57
I can see it now... Diablo 3: team up with Diablo and his brothers in order to defeat a new enemy.
"Don't worry so much man. There won't be any more zergs left to QQ. Lots of QQ about TvT is incoming though I bet." - Vrok 9/21/10
Unentschieden
Profile Joined August 2007
Germany1471 Posts
August 02 2010 07:35 GMT
#58
On August 02 2010 13:03 chair wrote:
Honestly SC2 could have had a passable plot if it managed to not fail on every aspect of storytelling.

For instance if the story was actually epic, I could have dealt with 1 dimensional characters. Or if the plot twists weren't telegraphed from the starting cinematic. If any one aspect of the plot was actually believable and well written, it could have been passable.

Because all of the missions were approachable from any direction at any time before char, you're left with a jumbled mess of episodic levels. There's no build up and thus no tension, and finally no history for the characters to build upon and explore. I'd point to the mission system as the fundamental flaw of the entire game, forcing the writing staff to approach each new situation as if nothing else in the game had transpired. They honestly should have just had a mostly linear game with some key divergent levels. It basically feels like playing a ton of side missions until you hit char.

Finally, how on earth the writing team decided on the ending is beyond me. That ending would have been so much better had they.... + Show Spoiler +
not told Raynor that the artifact will turn Kerrigan back, simply stating that it kills all Zerg or all lower level zerg, forcing him to come to a decision to use the artifact against his personal wishes; finding Kerrigan still alive would have then been a surprise for both the player and for Raynor, and made for a much more interesting ending interaction between all the characters. This would have conflicted with the Zeratul storyline, but I'm sure some creative writing could have worked around this.


You are right in some aspects BUT what little proper story there is still applies. If Valerian hadn´t told Raynor that the Artifact would turn Kerrigan back Raynor wouldn´t have cooperated. There was massive tension on the Hyperion when Raynor cooperated with his and his crews enemys to go after Kerrigan. The Prophecy is optional, the Finale WASN´T about saving the universe it was Raynor placing Kerrigan above his rebellion against Mengsk and his friend Tychus (Raynor knew that Tychus had no choice).
Bobgrimly
Profile Joined July 2010
New Zealand250 Posts
August 02 2010 09:07 GMT
#59
On August 02 2010 14:53 Sadistx wrote:
This is how I feel about the Zerg in general:
[image loading]



AMEN BROTHER.

Seriously. WTF. I loved sc1 lore. So much. As someone said the missions made sense. There were constant political or sensible motivations for them. Backstabbing and dishonour were as rife as honour and glory. It wasn't clear who was with who but all were fighting for their own goals. Some were for more ... benevolent outcomes and others for pure personal gain.

This whole terran mission... has been quests from wow (best description I have heard). Do x for y amount of resources. It takes most of the missions to be completed before any actual story part comes into it. Zeratul missions were cool.

Raynor used to be tough and logical. DON'T BOARD A BATTLECRUISER WHILE THERE IS A WHOLE FLEET POINTED AT YOU WITHOUT TRYING TO HAIL THEM ON THE COMM OR SHOOTING OR SOMETHING (sorry that scene pissed me off with its stupidity no end).

They had so many possibilities they could have pursued with the hybrids and the xelnaga.

SC1 lore: xelnaga make/evolve the protoss and then zerg. Overmind rises up against makers and forces their retreat almost wiping them out in the process (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_storyline this might not be "official site material" but is pretty much the accepted story based off of blizzards accepted lore).

Thats right the overmind nearly WIPES OUT THE XEL' NAGA. According to zeratul missions the overmind could not defy the mission set out by his creators.... yet somehow he had the ability to nearly wipe them out?????

So to all those saying there was no retcon... go read your lore. They have massively retconned lore. Overmind was still controlled by xel'naga... he just couldn't be stopped by that control from killing them. The stupidity of that contradiction astounds me.

Does blizzard check the story with anyone who has read the original lore? EVER? They did a massive blunder in wow. Now it looks like they are setting up another amazing one in sc. I pray they save it with the next two expansions but if history is anything to go by I am praying to a gaming god that doesn't exist.

More sc1 lore: The overmind absorbed the xel'naga and thats how it learnt of the protoss. It then needed a way to combat the protoss psyonic abilities. So it absorbed terrans and eventually kerrigan in an effort to make its own psyonic warriors equal or greater than the protoss it wished to absorb. (why absorb if it had better warriors.... imagine if humans could be better than protoss with zerg infestation... imagine how much better infested protoss could be).

There was no "I must defeat the masters so I can save the universe" hint from the overmind at any point. NOT ONE. There was no... 'kerrigan will be my salvation" and she certainly was not informed by her maker that she had any other purpose other than to serve.

Making up story that wasn't there isn't needed. They had set it up with the xel'naga survivors obviously trying to perfect their experiment in order to control the universe. Not destroy it. Why have some cartoon super villian character come in and do an evil laugh. Duran was perfect. Manipulative working in the shadows to help his masters create an army to defeat all known life and achieve perfection in form.

Why not build on that. Why tear it down to some cheap evil big bad guy. Glowing red eyes... really???? REALLY????
For the swarm
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-02 10:04:23
August 02 2010 10:02 GMT
#60
My real problem was so many open ends after the cinematic.

1. What happened to zeratul after he gave you the crystal? Died? Went to Char? Went into hiding again? Nothing is said about that.

2. Where the fuck are the real protoss this entire campaign? You know, not the fanatics that protect xel naga artifacts and some stupid gas in the jungle, but the real protoss fleets? You only meet them once in the colonist mission (Selendis) and you have to fight them again <_<

3. What happens to the Mengsks (both of them) and Dominion? Dominion apparently lost half of their fleet assaulting Char, and Emperor Mengsk was exposed destroying Tarsonis. I mean that's pretty damn significant.

4. What's going to be done with the artifact? Who's controlling the zerg now?

5. What are the canon endings for Tosh and Dr. Handsome? If they both die, that fucking sucks cuz that means their missions were nothing but filler. That means the campaign is even smaller than it already feels.

Now we have to wait 2 more years for any of these to be answered <_<

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