Defo is! Milner should been off for me though poor Bernado got chopped down a lot haha but 2-2 great entertainment and somehow Chlesea top of league after playing 5 out of the 6 "top 6" in first 7 games!

{CC}StealthBlue

United States41117 Posts

October 04 2021 15:11 GMT

#850

WombaT

Northern Ireland26764 Posts

October 04 2021 20:22 GMT

#851

On October 03 2021 22:36 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Ole's progress is comparable to Klopp's so far.. Klopp's first season was 2015-16 (he took over Liverpool like 10 games into it, so not fully his season, but they ended up in 8th place, with 62 points. (They had 62 points and 6th place the season before.) Then 2016-17, 4th place, 76 points. 2017-18, 4th place, 75 points. )

(Compare with Ole - 6th place his first season (where he took over in march and was an immediate success (before they collapsed at the end)), then third place his first full season, second place his second full season)

The fourth season was where Klopp's results became great (they won the CL and got second place in the premier league). This is Ole's fourth season (although he's had half a year less than Klopp had when his fourth season started). To reiterate - I agree that Klopp is a better manager than Ole. But Klopp is a great example of why continuity matters when you are rebuilding a team. Even a manager as great as Klopp needed three seasons to build the team before they could mount a challenge, and the Liverpool he inherited wasn't really any worse than the Manchester United Ole inherited (even if Ole has had more money to spend).

I’m not sure it’s comparable. Results took a while but it was apparent super early in Klopp’s reign what his planned style was, what he wanted to do. We saw similar tenets to what his Dortmund side was doing, even if it was nascent at that time. And indeed with time it evolved to surpass even the best he could execute of his ideas while at Dortmund.

Guardiola’s first season was full of teething issues too, was there much doubt about the plan and the ultimate goal and progress was made in that domain. Was there questioning of results? Absolutely! Was there a question of what he was trying to do, whether one agreed with the goal or not, and I recall much pundit skepticism that Guardolia’s football could work in the Prem? No

Tuchel took about 7 minutes to drag Chelsea up a level with an underperforming squad.

There’s taking time to execute a longer term plan, and there’s not having much of a plan. Ole’s gradually obtained a better squad, he’s managed personnel pretty well but does he have a real idea of how he wants to play like a Klopp or a Guardiola?

Klopp and Guardiola early doors were like folks who had a sick build but not quite the chops to execute it, but people extended them patience and kept sending them out because their builds were theoretically super potent so they got some slack and just needed some kinks ironed out.

With Ole what’s the big interesting idea? Continuity is great to a point, with Klopp or Guardiola it’s showing faith in an overarching plan, with history of executing that plan elsewhere and with breadcrumbs of progress in doing it in the new gig. And showing faith is showing faith in the plan.

If Ole wasn’t in a league with some folks on the cutting edge of technical coaching, him being solid enough in that domain and good on the interpersonal front would be enough, but it’s realistically just not going to cut it.

Also happy birthday Pande!

Liquid`Drone

Norway28794 Posts

October 04 2021 21:12 GMT

#852

Ole has been very consistent in developing long term players who can play fast-paced attacking football and who want to spend their careers at Manchester United. I can see that in everything he does - even signing Cavani and Ronaldo fit the metric, because they are amazing professionals who will be great sources of inspiration for the younger talent. (The stories of Ronaldo's immediate impact - making every player skip dessert, are hilarious.) I mean, we're talking about a really smart football player (again, smartness was Solskjær's primary forte as a player) who has been mentored by the arguably greatest coach of all time. His coaching career isn't nearly impressive enough to warrant the job at United - in isolation - but Fergie is a big fan and supporter of him. Gonna have to assume there's a reason for that, tbh.

(As a Norwegian, I'm also familiar with the job Solskjær did with Molde. They had never won the Norwegian league prior to Solskjær taking over in 2011 - a job he had until 2014. They then proceeded to win the league in 2011 and 2012, second place in 2013, winning again in 2014. In 2015 (after he had left) they got 6th place, 2016, 6th place (he returned for this season), 2017 they're in second place again, 2018 second place, 2019 winning again. The past 10 seasons - with Solskjær at the helm 6 of the years, Molde - a team which again, had never won the league before, has been Norway's best team. He's been absolutely instrumental in making this happen.)

I'm not disputing his limitations or claiming that he's at the level of Klopp, Guardiola - or Tuchel for that matter. But there is definitely a coherent plan at play, and frankly, even if this season ends up being a disappointment, with a fourth place 9 points behind third place Chelsea, a ro16 exit from the CL, and him getting sacked, then his stay will still have been a success, because the rebuilding he has undertaken is bound to yield long term dividends. Like, it might well be that he's a better fit as coach of the youth team or an assistant of a more proven manager. But I'm still gonna insist that he's deserving of a fair shot this season, and I also wouldn't be surprised to see him develop into a real top tier manager if he survives this season. Everything about Solskjær as a player to me indicated that he was going to be a success as a coach/manager, and while the Cardiff job was a failure, that season is the exception.

Edit: Honestly, the first couple seasons of Klopp were quite similar, imo. Doing better against the top teams (maybe I remember this wrongly tbh, might not have been consistently true), having great attacking play but not defensive play, not being consistent but with a really high top level.. Klopp's Liverpool was not great until the fourth season, but that season, they were truly fantastic. If Klopp had left after three seasons, his stay at Liverpool really wouldn't have been anything particularly noteworthy.

{CC}StealthBlue

United States41117 Posts

October 05 2021 03:22 GMT

#853

DropBear

Australia4400 Posts

October 05 2021 08:58 GMT

#854

And Watford have hired Claudio Ranieri. You couldn't make this shit up

Will he even make it to Christmas?

sharkie

Austria18635 Posts

October 05 2021 10:07 GMT

#855

Match of the Day pundits said they were "very surprised" by Cristiano Ronaldo's omission from Manchester United's starting line-up at the weekend - and it appears his former boss Sir Alex Ferguson was too.

In a conversation with former UFC champion Khabib Nurmagomedov at Old Trafford, the legendary ex-United manager was filmed saying "you should always start with your best players".

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/58799450

And here we have criticism from SAF on Ole

Oukka

Finland1683 Posts

October 05 2021 10:11 GMT

#856

On October 05 2021 17:58 DropBear wrote:
And Watford have hired Claudio Ranieri. You couldn't make this shit up

Will he even make it to Christmas?

Sixth permanent manager in about two years. I just wonder how much money Watford has spent on these contracts :D

Bacillus

Finland2047 Posts

October 05 2021 16:59 GMT

#857

On October 05 2021 19:11 Oukka wrote:

Show nested quote +

Sixth permanent manager in about two years. I just wonder how much money Watford has spent on these contracts :D

I saw someone in reddit mentioning that Watford is a very solid pick on 'first sack of the season' bets every year.

GTR

51593 Posts

October 06 2021 00:11 GMT

#858

can't think of a team that has had more turnover over the past decade than watford.
since 2009;

Malky Mackay
Sean Dyche
Gianfranco Zola
Giuseppe Sannino
Óscar García Junyent
Billy McKinlay
Slaviša Jokanović
Quique Sánchez Flores
Walter Mazzarri
Marco Silva
Javi Gracia
Quique Sánchez Flores (2)
Nigel Pearson
Vladimir Ivić
Xisco Muñoz
Claudio Ranieri

DropBear

Australia4400 Posts

October 06 2021 07:36 GMT

#859

How many have Udinese had? The other Pozzo outfit

Quick check of their wikipedia, I count 11 different managers since 2014, starting with Andrea Stamaccioni