EPTCan Harden and Westbrook make it work?
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They can't
Longer version
NBA Offseason 2019 - Page 8
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
Longer version | ||
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Twinkle Toes
United States3605 Posts
To add to this, I dont know whether this is good or bad, Harden is saying he and Westbrook play well together. What bizarro timeline is this!!! | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On July 13 2019 16:01 cLutZ wrote: I mean that, whatever tier most people had CP3 in during his career, I always ranked him 1.5 to 2.5 tiers below that. I am a CP3 anti-Stan. Always have been. Why? I can understand that people don't like CP3's personality. But I think he's always been an incredibly skilled basketball player. He is not like Russ where he obviously has flaws and you can disagree about how good he really is all things considered. CP3 to me seems to just be an all around incredible player. Sure, recently he has fallen off because of age, but if you look at his earlier career. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18063 Posts
On July 15 2019 13:46 rabidch wrote: the biggest knock against cp3 is hed get injured a lot in the playoffs. The level of physical intensity integral to his game leads to injuries. If he were more risk averse then he wouldn't be as good. Kyle Lowry has the same issue. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 15 2019 13:46 rabidch wrote: the biggest knock against cp3 is hed get injured a lot in the playoffs. Not my critique, which would be that his playstyle is based around tactics that are less effective in the playoffs. And thereby actually less effective under the actual rules of basketball. Some other Warrior astutely observed this either this year or last year about Steph and said, to paraphrase, "he gets roughed up all game in the playoffs so he thinks he can be rough also, but then the refs call him for doing the exact same thing." Cp3's "elite defense" was always about committing lots of fouls that he didn't get called for, flopping successfully, and complaining. His offense was often quite effective, but significantly diminished in the playoffs (as is true for basically every player under 6'3". For me this was true in his near MVP season (I think 2008 IIRC), his Clippers years, and now. The only true path is with lanky 2-way players that either don't rely on refs (Duncan), or players beastly enough to score with "Shaq Rules", aka we let you commit offensive fouls but don't call minor hacks on the defense (Lebron). I'm not saying you shouldn't draw fouls, Kawhii drew a ton of fouls this postseason. I'm a Bulls fan, I saw this with DRose (who is less historically good, but also less of a fraud than CP3) who became an MVP by taking contact and drawing lots of fouls. But that is also risky, and guys like Harden have also seen troubles in the playoffs if you rely on it. KD is another example where he had to change his game when his "ripthrough" was no longer getting called. KD was good enough that I think he actually got better after he stopped relying on that dumb crutch. One day, the NBA may be reffed in a manner wherein people will look back at CP3 and say, "ahh he was ahead of his time" and imagine he would be an all time great player because the way the game fits him perfectly. But those people will also be confused about the 5'8" (the median height of dudes) who is even more skilled than CP3 ever was (because it is highly likely the most skilled basketball player in the world is 5'8" and not in the NBA because height is a gatekeeper) that is running around exploiting those refs at even greater levels than CP3 could ever have imagined. On July 15 2019 08:09 Elroi wrote: Why? I can understand that people don't like CP3's personality. But I think he's always been an incredibly skilled basketball player. He is not like Russ where he obviously has flaws and you can disagree about how good he really is all things considered. CP3 to me seems to just be an all around incredible player. Sure, recently he has fallen off because of age, but if you look at his earlier career. He's always been very skilled. Probably at many points the most skilled player in the NBA. Skill is not a determining factor of eliteness though. In the NBA all skill should be adjusted for height and athleticism, and also adjusted for refereeing changes when refs & players actually care. In all those areas he is consistently adjusted downward. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On July 12 2019 10:07 JimmiC wrote: I have no idea how it will Chris Paul and Harden did not get along because both wanted the ball. Lets now add the guy who wants the ball even more than them two and likes to shoot more. truth. quite possibly... the dumbest shit but i mean... they weren't going anywhere with their current lineup regardless. personally i think they should have sold off all their assets and do a massive rebuild. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 16 2019 08:24 Jerubaal wrote: Do you think CP3 would have done better in another era? How do you think he would have performed if he had been plugged into the Nash Suns? Maybe wayyy back in the Jerry West era when he would have been the most athletic 1 by far and physical defenses hadn't been developed. But his draft year was right around the time they made the rule changes that let Point Guards be as relevant as they are now. Nash & CP3 were the first two of the new era to exploit the no handcheck rule. Since then its been a PG explosion from Steph to Same to Kyrie to Kemba. This is no mistake, its a result of the rule changes. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Alright, maybe the shorter version of this is "CP3 was way better than Westbrook" :D. On July 16 2019 10:36 cLutZ wrote: Maybe wayyy back in the Jerry West era when he would have been the most athletic 1 by far and physical defenses hadn't been developed. But his draft year was right around the time they made the rule changes that let Point Guards be as relevant as they are now. Nash & CP3 were the first two of the new era to exploit the no handcheck rule. Since then its been a PG explosion from Steph to Same to Kyrie to Kemba. This is no mistake, its a result of the rule changes. On one hand yes, point guards are a lot more productive nowadays than before, but on the other hand superstar guards/wings still dominate the game. The last point guard to win a FMVP is Parker in 2007. The only PG that can pretend to a superstar status and MVP contention nowadays is Curry. Star point guards are a kind of fast food for offenses. You know you'll get a quick decent shot if you put one in a pick&roll. He will get a lot of points and assists. You don't really know if it will help you get closer to a chip though. I think a non-negligible part of that is that PGs are almost all negatives in defense (sometimes huge negatives), those tall guards/wings are not. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18063 Posts
If anything goes sideways with either LA team they traded away a truckload of players for Leonard who can leave in two years and Anthony Davis who can leave after one year. EDIT: Masai Ujiri//the Raptors trading away only one 1st rounder for one year of Leonard is looking better all the time. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16129 Posts
On July 16 2019 22:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote: EDIT: Masai Ujiri//the Raptors trading away only one 1st rounder for one year of Leonard is looking better all the time. That had as much to do with the Spurs spiting the Lakers as anything else. We offered plenty for him I'm sure and they just gave us the finger. I see you Spurs. Gonna enjoy trashing on you all during your rebuild. | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On July 16 2019 22:03 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I figured the Lakers had a behind-the-scenes, handshake deal with Anthony Davis when they traded for him. I thought AD had probably agreed to sign a long term deal with the Lakers. NOPE. He can leave in a year. He intends to test the FA market. If anything goes sideways with either LA team they traded away a truckload of players for Leonard who can leave in two years and Anthony Davis who can leave after one year. EDIT: Masai Ujiri//the Raptors trading away only one 1st rounder for one year of Leonard is looking better all the time. at the end of the day, that's not all they traded away for leonard and they've lost everything they got from that trade. hopefully they are able to sign some free agents next summer with all that cap space, but its shaping up to a really weak class. unless something catastrophic happens, AD is not leaving the lakers i would say that lowry resigns for a far lower salary. would they max out siakam? is he worth it? he's basically going to be #1 option this year | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18063 Posts
On July 18 2019 01:30 zev318 wrote: at the end of the day, that's not all they traded away for leonard and they've lost everything they got from that trade. Getting out from under Derozan's deal was a master stroke of brilliance. It was a positive. Norm Powell can hit 3s and he is a better defender than Derozan. Powell is as good if not better of a playoff player than Derozan. I think he is better. I felt sad seeing Derozan leave. He is a great person. Feels aside, Derozan took 45 3s all of last year. He was a +40 on a 48 win team that was a +140. That;s bad. He really benefited from playing with Lowry. It is almost impossible to compete at the top of the league or even win a playoff series for that matter.... with a starting guard that can't shoot 3s. Had this been 1999 and the team is only a few years old ... you keep Derozan and celebrate a few playoff wins. Toronto is no longer willing to party likes its 1999. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Is he the first or even second best player on a championship team? Likely not, but he's not completely worthless. I do think he can be a valuable playoff player. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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