EPTAnyway, we all know the Raptors bench mob was historically good 2 years ago. But low-minute bench players play mostly vs other bench players (vanilla +/- is basically worthless if you want to compare them to starters), and see very few occurrences of play in a starters vs starters setup, so things like RPM are not that reliable either.
NBA Offseason 2019 - Page 9
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Anyway, we all know the Raptors bench mob was historically good 2 years ago. But low-minute bench players play mostly vs other bench players (vanilla +/- is basically worthless if you want to compare them to starters), and see very few occurrences of play in a starters vs starters setup, so things like RPM are not that reliable either. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18034 Posts
On July 19 2019 01:16 JimmiC wrote: I think youre right, based on that he was. He was often the raps best player in the playoffs, not always but often. And he got them there. There are a bunch of people who "profile better" with less success. I'd say Lowry was the Raptors best player from 2014 to 2018 in both the regular season and playoffs. Lowry's BBIQ is way better than Derozan's. From 2014 to 2018 so many "Lowry + Bench" lineups did great until Lowry got replaced with Derozan. Then that same line up stunk. Derozan gets worse in the playoffs. Lowry was the Raptors best player from 2014 to 2018 in the playoffs. Derozan is something like 24 for 103 ( i might be off by 1 or 2 ) from 3 in the playoffs. When he is on the floor spacing always becomes an issue. Derozan was ok in the playoffs. Derozan started getting benched by Casey during crucial stretches of games in 2018. This year, Derozan was a -33 in last year's playoffs. It was a 7 game series where the team was -13. That's bad. Lowry is a way better defender than Derozan and a far smarter player than Derozan. Its evident in all the line ups that he has made work over the years. Derozan is an ok playoff player. He is not worth any where near his contract. On July 1 2016 21:24 RowdierBob wrote: Top five poison-pill contracts that will be signed this off season: 1. Demar - max deal at 5 years/$153 million. I actually do like DeMar and he improves his game each year. But he's not a franchise guy. He's an improved, but still high usage, inefficient shooting guard that can't shoot from range. this post has aged very well. On July 19 2019 01:30 ZenithM wrote: In general I don't like arguments that go "Bench player A has better +/- than Starter B, so Starter B should be benched". It's something JJR says quite a lot, even if he presents it in more nuanced ways. The Satoransky > John Wall thing remains a classic to me :D. Anyway, we all know the Raptors bench mob was historically good 2 years ago. But low-minute bench players play mostly vs other bench players (vanilla +/- is basically worthless if you want to compare them to starters), and see very few occurrences of play in a starters vs starters setup, so things like RPM are not that reliable either. as i said : Satoransky is only better than an injured John Wall. if you have a quote of anyone claiming a health Wall is not as good as Satoransky i'd love to see it. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Masai is a good executive, he didn't have much choice and would rather have Derozan, a good all-star player that can get you points far in the playoffs in the East, than not have him at the time. Why do you instead have to say "Derozan's contract is atrocious", "Derozan is not starter caliber", and "Masai is a genius"? Not only are some of these a bit contradictory, but we're also not competing for the hottest takes here, I thought we were better than that. Edit: Also you don't need to sell me on Lowry. I responded to your post because you compared Derozan to Norman Powell. I was never arguing about Lowry. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18034 Posts
On July 19 2019 01:50 ZenithM wrote: Edit: Also you don't need to sell me on Lowry. I responded to your post because you compared Derozan to Norman Powell. I was never arguing about Lowry. I am not responding to your post by discussing Lowry. Please note the post where I discuss Lowry is a response to JimmiC stating Derozan was the Raptor's best player. But ya.. i put that Lowry line in the wrong spot. I'll edit it. On July 19 2019 01:50 ZenithM wrote: Masai is a good executive, he didn't have much choice and would rather have Derozan, a good all-star player that can get you points far in the playoffs in the East, than not have him at the time. yes i think that is true. He didn't have much choice at the time. i think he did a nice job of wiggling out of the deal when he saw a good opportunity to do so. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Anyway I don't really want to defend Derozan too much anymore haha. Like I said at the start it's not like I'm not a huge fan. I just think he's better than most bench players, at the very least :D. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada18034 Posts
On July 19 2019 02:04 JimmiC wrote: He often was. I mean its long ago where george hill was goinf to be better than lowry chris paul and so on because short pg all get bad after age 30. You cant only pull your posts from the past that you think are smart and leave out all the rest. Also people tend to think SA had a pretty good front office and they traded for DD I think the big drop off occurs at age 33. Lowry just turned 33 which means the big drop off happens this year. If you go back to my posts you'll see I proposed a 2 year deal for Lowry. Small guards do not age well. Here are some examples If you have some examples of small guards aging well ... I'm willing to alter my position on avoiding long term deals with aging small guards. On June 29 2017 01:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i'd stay away from any point guard under 6'1", over 32 years old and wanting a long term deal. In the last 30 years how many guys under 6'1" had great seasons after their 32nd birthday? i'd stay away from both Paul and Lowry if they want a deal longer than 2 years. Let someone else screw up their salary cap. So that Lowry deal would end now. I think Ujiri had to offer a longer deal to keep Lowry though and was in position to do anything else. At least he kept it to 3 years and the Raptors don't have a Chris Paul situation on their hands. So I think Masai did a nice job compared to Morey in keeping Lowry's deal as short as possible. The Chris Paul deal is an albatross. On July 19 2019 02:04 JimmiC wrote: Also people tend to think SA had a pretty good front office and they traded for DD If you lack guard depth and need play makers Derozan is a very useful player. I think DD and his versatility fits in well with the Spurs roster. DD doesn't fit in as well with the Raptors roster. DD's absence gave Siakam more opportunities to blossom as a play maker. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On July 17 2019 14:54 Vindicare605 wrote: That had as much to do with the Spurs spiting the Lakers as anything else. We offered plenty for him I'm sure and they just gave us the finger. I see you Spurs. Gonna enjoy trashing on you all during your rebuild. Don't bet on it. There is all the possibilities in the world of this lakers team under performing massively. Last year's team with Lebron and all the young guys were also supposed to be a top team. The risk of under performing goes up a lot in a a dysfunctional organization that also has many new players who aren't used to playing together. And if they do fail, maybe AD is gone in a year. On the other hand, the spurs has some really exciting young guys. I guess only us spurs fans are excited about them, but for some reason this team manages to draft and develop players at an insane rate. Watch out for Derrick White, Lonnie Walker, and Dejounte Murray next season! I know I am a fanboy now, but did you guys watch Lonnie Walker in summer league? He looks like future star.  | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Now, obviously its different in every case. Lebron, Durant, Kawhi are different than Kyrie. This is, of course, nuance lost on the mainstream sports media that declares all players in the top 20 superstars, just as they declare all the top 15 quarterbacks "franchise quarterbacks." Most good NBA players lose all value to their teams once they sign a deal in free agency. There are a few who exceed the max salary in value, and thus are outliers. Soon someone will give the AD package for someone like Beal or Lillard/MCollum and we will be back in the "Nets were fleeced" timeline. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On July 19 2019 19:24 cLutZ wrote: I think a lot of teams are beginning to underrate draft picks again (this seems cyclical). Sure there is an assumption that lots of high picks don't make miracles, but Philly is doing well, Boston is doing well, and most of the time even your average #25 pick has a lot of value, because he's cheap, and often an upperclassman that contributes right away. Now, obviously its different in every case. Lebron, Durant, Kawhi are different than Kyrie. This is, of course, nuance lost on the mainstream sports media that declares all players in the top 20 superstars, just as they declare all the top 15 quarterbacks "franchise quarterbacks." Most good NBA players lose all value to their teams once they sign a deal in free agency. There are a few who exceed the max salary in value, and thus are outliers. Soon someone will give the AD package for someone like Beal or Lillard/MCollum and we will be back in the "Nets were fleeced" timeline. there's nothing to underrate about draft picks, teams want stars/franchise players, and if that's what you want, almost everything outside the top 5 picks is useless. and all these 1st rounders flying around this year is 15+ at best, good for finding complimentary pieces but really dont mean anything if you cant find your franchise player. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On July 20 2019 23:59 zev318 wrote: there's nothing to underrate about draft picks, teams want stars/franchise players, and if that's what you want, almost everything outside the top 5 picks is useless. and all these 1st rounders flying around this year is 15+ at best, good for finding complimentary pieces but really dont mean anything if you cant find your franchise player. Golden state's last top 5 draft pick was 2002. The Spurs last top 5 draft pick was 1997. First round picks out of the top 10 can take you far. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On July 21 2019 05:30 Elroi wrote: Golden state's last top 5 draft pick was 2002. The Spurs last top 5 draft pick was 1997. First round picks out of the top 10 can take you far. spurs are pretty good example actually, they got their 1 franchise player in duncan and then were able to find great complimentary players with their late 1st rounders. ive said it before and i'll say it again, ginobili and parker are in the HOF, but i dont consider them at the same level as like kobe for example. i did also say "almost". like if u added up all the picks outside of top 5 picks ever, its probably like 99% chance you'll not get a franchise player. id say detroit was probably the last team in a very long time without a true franchise player to win a championship | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5617 Posts
On July 21 2019 10:37 zev318 wrote: spurs are pretty good example actually, they got their 1 franchise player in duncan and then were able to find great complimentary players with their late 1st rounders. ive said it before and i'll say it again, ginobili and parker are in the HOF, but i dont consider them at the same level as like kobe for example. i did also say "almost". like if u added up all the picks outside of top 5 picks ever, its probably like 99% chance you'll not get a franchise player. id say detroit was probably the last team in a very long time without a true franchise player to win a championship I don't know that there is a clear definition of what a franchise player is, but Tony, Manu, and Kawhi were all among the top players in the league. So are Curry, Thompson, Draymon, who were all picked outside the top 5 in the lottery. Other guys drafted later, on top of my head: Giannis, Kyle Lowry, Jimmy Butler, Lillard, McCollum, Igoudala, Lou Williams, Jokic, DeAndre Jordan, Iaiah Thomas, Marc Gasol etc. If you go back a couple of years, you get Dirk, Rondo, Pierce etc. | ||
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On July 21 2019 17:53 Elroi wrote: I don't know that there is a clear definition of what a franchise player is, but Tony, Manu, and Kawhi were all among the top players in the league. So are Curry, Thompson, Draymon, who were all picked outside the top 5 in the lottery. Other guys drafted later, on top of my head: Giannis, Kyle Lowry, Jimmy Butler, Lillard, McCollum, Igoudala, Lou Williams, Jokic, DeAndre Jordan, Iaiah Thomas, Marc Gasol etc. If you go back a couple of years, you get Dirk, Rondo, Pierce etc. my def of a franchise player is someone that can clearly carry a team alone if needed, and over several seasons. some of the guys u listed i dont think can do that on a consistent basis. like if u put draymond or deandre as a #1 option, that's probably not going to work out. and my point is still this: even with all those guys u listed, what's that like 0.01% of all guys drafted out of the top 5? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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zev318
Canada4306 Posts
On July 22 2019 00:11 JimmiC wrote: And whats the % in the top 5? id say better than 0.01% | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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