On September 13 2021 02:46 Aristodemus wrote: I didn't think they would dish out a penalty but if anyone was getting one it was obviously Max. When Horner says it's a racing incident I think that speaks volumes.
Horner is actually pretty honest of himself. He is also quick to claim racing incidents when it doesn't benefit his own drivers, like he did in Austria
On September 13 2021 05:41 fLyiNgDroNe wrote: And thank god everyone's OK, halo strikes again. How did we ever race without halos?!
The halo has had this effect of making old F1 really stressful to watch sometimes because now I'm way more aware of how dangerous things flying around can be. That big crash at Belgium 1998 is a nightmare to watch now in context to modern F1 safety. There were tires flying everywhere while drivers' heads were way more prominently sticking out, cars all over the place, and no meaningful tethers on anything at all. Nowadays even the rear wing has a tether on it.
edit: Can we take a moment to pour one out for Vettel's race today? He was a car magnet. He was the victim in at least 3 different collisions or incidents from what I remember. First, on the first lap, his teammate forced him off the track, causing him to lose like 5 places, then he got hit by Ocon and sustained floor damage, then he got hit by Schumacher and got even more floor damage. His entire race was destroyed through no fault of his own. Aston has even confirmed they're going to be going over what happened with their drivers.
Also, Aston Martin strongly denied that rumour about Vettel leaving again. They said that they have plans to finalize their terms with Vettel to continue his contract after this weekend and will likely have something to announce either this week or in the lead up to the Russian GP.
edit: Apparently Vettel also suffered a failure related to his energy recovery system, so he wasn't running at full power for a portion of the end of the race.
On September 13 2021 02:50 ChristianS wrote: A few thoughts, maybe you guys can tell me if they’re stupid:
This penalty leaves me more bewildered than ever about what the actual rules are regarding incidents in corners. Maybe that’s just me not understanding, but it feels like there’s total inconsistency of enforcement, which seems particularly bad considering how scary dangerous a lot of recent incidents in corners have been.
You have to imagine drivers are putting a fair amount of thought into what types of collisions tend to wreck their race vs. their rivals’, and how they can keep collisions in the latter category. Silverstone was a penalty for Hamilton and this was a penalty for Verstappen, but this was still a massively better outcome for Verstappen. It’s hard to imagine a competitive mind not thinking about how to control that. People probably always thought about it some, but when title rivals are both talking a Senna-like “either you back out or we crash” attitude, a rule like “they have to leave your room” is small comfort. Most likely they’ll just not, put you in a wall, and maaaaybe take a 5s penalty on the way to becoming WDC.
It’s going to be harder for me to celebrate whoever wins this season, considering the outcome is so dependent on weird penalties, a 2 lap race entirely under safety car, etc. I have to hope someone pulls out a big enough point lead that it won’t feel like it was decided by that stuff.
No you're completely right. You might as well throw a dice and be more consistent than the stewards at this point. There's no regulations to cite when they dish out penalties like this. It's just wishy washy feelings.
In Austria 2019, Max passed Leclerc, and pushed him out of the track. No penalties were given. So if this was to set a precedence, that means that the when you are ahead of your opponent on the inside, you are now allowed to just grab the racing line, the person on the outside has to yield.
Austria 2021, Norris is on the inside of Perez, and pushes him wide. Perez is also in an encounter on two separate occasions with Leclerc, where he pushes Leclerc wide, despite all 3 being ahead of their opponent when they pushed them wide. In all 3 of these encounters, the person pushing the other car out was punished with 5 second penalties. So the precedence set in 2019 is, apparently, no longer valid.
Now, Monza 2021, Max is on the outside trying to pass Hamilton. He is equally as far alongside Hamilton as Perez was alongside Norris, or Leclerc alongside Perez later. Their front wheels nearly overlap. Hamilton pushes Max out of the track, AND MAX IS PUNISHED FOR IT. Like what in the absolute fuck? Not only is the previous precedences just completely thrown out the window, the person who is pushed wide gets the punishment?! What's even the point of having stewards if they're just going to give penalties at complete random, with zero citations from any rules or regulations? What a fucking joke
On September 13 2021 08:25 aseq wrote: How did Ham get a 10 sec penalty that had no effect whatsoever, and Max gets 3 grid places?
Time penalties can't be given out outside of the race. All incidents in qualy, practice, etc also ends up as grid penalties. 3 place grid penalty is about the equivalent of a 10 sec time penalty in the race.
That part is fine imo. I personally just don't think any penalties was deserved in the first place. At least RB can take this opportunity to do an engine swap, I suppose, which would make the 3 place penalty worthless.
Lewis is apparently seeing a neck injury specialist for pain that has gotten worse. Not surprising when he had a car dropped on his head. He'll undoubtedly have the best care money can buy, but it could seal the championship if it's bad.
Hopefully it's nothing too bad, took me like 6 months to recover when I had a neck compression injury. Very much not a fun time.
I think its pretty clear why Max got penalised, personally I wouldn't have given him one but he did have a choice. If you want to compare it to other incidents then the two previous ones with him at monza are the best. Lap one of the sprint he put Danny Ricc in the exact same position and he bailed, almost completely identical. To be fair Danny had more right to the corner as he entered it ahead. Then lap one of the race he ran Lewis off and he also bailed. Max had the chance to do the same but when he decided to go over the sausage it was only going to end up one way. As others have said it could have been much worse for Lewis.
His aggressive driving style when in close quarters will always result in incidents.
On September 13 2021 22:56 Aristodemus wrote: I think its pretty clear why Max got penalised, personally I wouldn't have given him one but he did have a choice. If you want to compare it to other incidents then the two previous ones with him at monza are the best. Lap one of the sprint he put Danny Ricc in the exact same position and he bailed, almost completely identical. To be fair Danny had more right to the corner as he entered it ahead. Then lap one of the race he ran Lewis off and he also bailed. Max had the chance to do the same but when he decided to go over the sausage it was only going to end up one way. As others have said it could have been much worse for Lewis.
His aggressive driving style when in close quarters will always result in incidents.
Here's a good video explaining why Max didn't "just bail". Lewis left the door open way too long, and then shut it on him at the last second over the curbs.
I'm also pretty tired of the constant "Max's aggressive style". Max haven't had an aggressive driving style for the last 2 years. He fights hard, for sure, but he never puts himself into accidents expecting the other person to just give way when they don't need to. Max has actually become quite the balanced driver the last few years. His old reputation is maybe fairly earned at the time, but doesn't represent his driving style any more. Every single driver on the grid would have gone for that gap if they were in Max's position.
I like Max and he will certainly deserve the title if he wins but he is super aggressive, there are a myriad of differing opinions on who was to blame but the majority, including the stewards put it on Max.
On September 13 2021 23:51 Aristodemus wrote: I like Max and he will certainly deserve the title if he wins but he is super aggressive, there are a myriad of differing opinions on who was to blame but the majority, including the stewards put it on Max.
I feel he's somewhat aggresive but in a pretty fair way usually. I do not think the majority really put the blame on Max here and even at Sky they mostly felt it was a racing incident. I feel that's what the majority of the people feel too.
Anyway, useless to still talk about it. The penalty has been given and I think most ppl can accept that. It's rather annoying to hear all the politics around the whole thing and all the quotes from the teams/drivers who in almost all cases just say whatever suits them best.
Onto the next race we go. I guess the title race will continue to be exciting, although I do think Red Bull have the advantage at the end of the season and if nothing weird happens, they should be able to take at least the WDC if no races (from RB's point of view mostly Mexico/Brazil I guess) get cancelled.
On September 13 2021 23:51 Aristodemus wrote: I like Max and he will certainly deserve the title if he wins but he is super aggressive, there are a myriad of differing opinions on who was to blame but the majority, including the stewards put it on Max.
Where do you get this from?
The vast vast majority of drivers and pundits agree it's a racing incident.
When it comes to fans: Who cares? Hamilton fans thinks it's Max's fault, Max fans thinks it's Hamilton's fault. And the remaining seems to think it's a racing incident as well
On September 15 2021 00:04 xM(Z wrote: after Lewis will get the new engine he will outperform Max for sure.
Where did you get this idea from? There's no new engine until 2025.
If you're talking about a new "of the same type" engine, that doesn't really matter too much. They don't really increase performance too much, it's mostly about wear and tear, and trying to keep it from blowing up. + RB is going to open a new one sooner, likely next race due to their penalty.
On September 15 2021 03:05 xM(Z wrote: well, i got the idea from seeing Bottas perform on his new of the same type engine. i don't know, there's something there.
He "performed" because he started at the back and the Merc is faster than anything else on the track in a straight line, on the fastest track in the season. Once he reached cars that were comparable with his (Perez), he was no longer able to just swoop past. We've also seen both Mercs and Red Bulls start at the back and overtake damn near the entire field before.
There are no changes to the engine. There's a design freeze until 2025 for all powerunits. They also aren't allowed to switch power modes during the races any more, and they use the same fuel throughout the entire season. So they don't really have any way to "push" the less used engines harder to squeeze out more HP. The only difference is that a new one will have less wear and tear, making it less likely to blow up.
edit: Bottas did set a good time on qualy as well, true. But that's not an extreme occurrence or anything. Bottas has always been good on Saturdays, and used to outqualify Hamilton repeatedly before this season.
It’s not crazy to imagine a new engine of same spec might perform a bit better than one with some mileage, I would think? But yes, “new engine” should not matter anywhere near as much as in previous years, where it meant a new spec.
On September 15 2021 05:57 ChristianS wrote: It’s not crazy to imagine a new engine of same spec might perform a bit better than one with some mileage, I would think? But yes, “new engine” should not matter anywhere near as much as in previous years, where it meant a new spec.
It's not crazy to imagine, it's just wrong in F1 context is all. This isn't some engine that's been sitting in a car rusting and falling apart for 20 years. It's gone through very few miles, and taken apart for extensive maintenance after every race, and tuned to minute perfection. It's practically "new" every single race. The degradation they're worried about aren't of the type that causes HP leakage, there won't be scratches in the cylinder causing less compression, or oil leakage, or timing delays, or tired O-rings or bearings causing extra friction. They're more of the type that a brittle engine going through repeat heat cycles can crack and/or blow up.
On September 15 2021 05:57 ChristianS wrote: It’s not crazy to imagine a new engine of same spec might perform a bit better than one with some mileage, I would think? But yes, “new engine” should not matter anywhere near as much as in previous years, where it meant a new spec.
It's not crazy to imagine, it's just wrong in F1 context is all. This isn't some engine that's been sitting in a car rusting and falling apart for 20 years. It's gone through very few miles, and taken apart for extensive maintenance after every race, and tuned to minute perfection. It's practically "new" every single race. The degradation they're worried about aren't of the type that causes HP leakage, there won't be scratches in the cylinder causing less compression, or oil leakage, or timing delays, or tired O-rings or bearings causing extra friction. They're more of the type that a brittle engine going through repeat heat cycles can crack and/or blow up.
In a lot of cases, it's not necessarily a direct loss in performance, rather things like bearing clearances slowly loosening as they wear, and the slackening fit causing excessive vibrations when running at higher power levels, so they have to reduce power to keep the car from shaking itself apart, or limit revs etc. For every engine on a car, several have died on a dyno to give them extremely good insight into exactly what level of power is available for a given level of wear. I would bet that they can plug the lifetime throttle data, engine mode, and vibration data into a formula and get the maximum acceptable power level for any given engine.
EPT
