I'll start with this one since this is the most obvious. Let me also stress that this is not an in-a-vacuum Shaquesque "ringz erneh" argument that implies having more rings means being a better player. Now having said that, we are fortunate that Kobe and Lebron's career actually overlapped. We can argue about which conference is stronger or whose team was more stacked, but those contingencies are part of real life. In the end, winning matters. This is why historically great players such as Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Malone, Drexler, etc. are sidelined because someone else in their era was considered the winner. The fact of the matter is Kobe and Lebron played in the same era, and Kobe won more than Lebron [See Duncan in point #2]. Here's a gem straight from the goat's mouth: "There's something about 5 being more that 3..."
Basketball is a spectators' sport. Other than which team wins, a great part of watching basketball is the pleasure of watching players do their thing. (Before I go further on this, this is the reason why Duncan's "fundamental" basketball takes him out of the goat conversation despite winning 5 just like Kobe.) Being a winner makes one great, but being a winner AND having great basketball skills makes one goat. This is why Kareem, who is a consumate winner, an articulate and well-educated social activist in a time when it was needed the most, and generally a skillful basketball player is often left out of the goat conversation, even though he has a very good argument to be number one. Sure he owned the "sky hook", but does not get fans jumping up in the air with excitement, and that is all he has in terms of moves. This is also why other winners such as Robinson, Zeke, Cousy, Pippen, Fisher, etc. are not only not even within the fringes of greatest conversation, but are easy to forget unless we see them on tv. Conversely, this is also why "non-winners" who have beautiful fancy games are still loved and imitated today, such as Iverson, TMac, Carter, and why we have such special admiration for winners and skillful players like Magic, Hakeem, and MJ.
Now let's play a little game before I go and count the ways on Kobe - name me a Lebron signature move. Chasedown block? Well yeah. But we have to add that it is mostly against smaller guards, and he very rarely goes for a block placing himself between a bigger opponent and the hoop [business decision] (see Durant dunkfest 2017 finals, among many others). Ramming his way to the hoop? Ok. His dunks? Carter, McGrady, Lavine, Richardson, heck even Nate Robinson has better and more creative dunks than him, so it could not be even considered something that he is the best in the league at. His passing and court vision? I have argued this earlier in another NBA thread, and I acknowledge Lebron grow as a better passer, but he is not this magical assist genius that Lebron stans make him out to be. Watch Kidd, Nash, Stockton, and CP3 and you will know what I am talking about. He is a great passer, and he makes difficult passes, but he is nowhere near the others I mentioned in terms of passing skills.
He tries a few moves as well, like MJ/Kobe shoulder shimmy to fadeaway but it looks like the one kobe would make if he had spinal injury and his move was slowed in half. He also has a stepback, but it looks a lot like Hardens, if Harden were 50 years or and had sever arthritis. Lebron is a great player, don't misunderstand, and he can get his shots, rebounds, steals, and assists with ease, but mygod is he a stiff, ungraceful, and ugly player. He is not someone whom you'd watch and dream of copying the next time you play ball.
Kobe, on the other hand... #8 Kobe had a MJ fadeaway version 2.0, under the rim reverse windmill (yes it's a thing), 360 transition dunks, alley oop to himself off the board, to name a few. #24 had a slower but tighter shimmy fadeaway, shuffle step cross over to jump shot or dunk, and highly ill-advised hand in your face swish over 3-4 defenders. And let's not even begin about the footwork. To demonstrate, let's examine three Kobe highlights: 1. full court outlet pass from Horry vs Nuggets, Kobe catches it somewhere within the three point area, dribble, semi hop, right foot, left foot, reverse dunk; 2. vs. Knicks, 16-18 ft right wing, he dribbles toward the baseline with headfake, draws two defenders in the air, pivots to his right for the jumpshot; 3. the filthy move on Manu, behind the back cross over between the legs stepback fake, step through and board shot (ok this is travel-ish, as some of his moves are, but they are so fluid and graceful that it's forgivable, just like Harden's stepbacks are today). I cannot even imagine Lebron doing any of this without blatantly traveling. (All plays I mentioned here are 1 click away on youtube, so you can find them yourselves, but I want to show this as exhibit #8592 of skills comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwOD4BbtmY)
There is no argument to Kobe's killer alpha mentality. The only argument than Lebron stans bring up against this is that Kobe demanded for a trade. And once again, context matters.
Time has proven Shaq to be the petulant irresponsible child in the entire Kobe-Shaq feud. At the time it was happening, it was not obvious since Shaq was such a brilliant and fun media personality and Kobe was an aloof dbag who was facing a rape trial. It was easy to hate on Kobe and side with Shaq, but now that both have matured and the story is clearer, and that Shaq's many flaws being out in the open (being overweight, not practicing, not rehabbing offseason so they can be competitive in the season, shaq being a media slut about it all, etc.) Years later, Kobe again demanded to be traded because Lakers surrounded him Smush Parker and a team far worse than Lebron ever has.
So, were Lebron and Kobe right to demand to be traded or to transfer to another team in hopes of winning a championship? NO. But what happened to their careers after this is where we draw the line. Kobe worked things with the Lakers and worked with Pau and others to win a championship, while being the leader/alpha of the group. (And stop with this Shaq carried Kobe nonsense. In their first ring, that statement is valid, but in their second and third? Kobe is at least equal to Shaq and could even be argued that he and not Shaq led that team to the championship.)
Now let's go to Lebron. Lebron did great epic things in a not-for-championship team in his first Cleveland stint. And he was right to demand for a better team. But what was his solution to this? He joined Wade team and recruited another all star to form the first (inorganic) superteam in modern NBA. I have argued to death elsewhere that I completely understand the political economy behind players controlling their destiny and careers. But you just can't have your cake and eat it too. Lebron can't be called the greatest and underperform with a superteam he helped form twice. Jordan even said that if he were Lebron and had a carreer with Wade/Bosh then Kyrie/Love, he'd have won all rings since 2010 already. Moreover, you can't criticize other players for joining other players in order to better their championship chances and turn a blind eye on Lebron, the original sinner of the super team phenomenon.
And call me old-fashioned and romantic about it, but you can't seriously agree with Lebron when he #striveforgreatness and put himself in the conversation of goat when his path to greatness is one no other goat would even consider. MJ would never call Malone and Olajuwon in their primes to chase rings? Kobe would never call TMac and Iverson to chase rings. They wanted to kill the competition.
(Bonus: Kobe saved the USA Olympics team after Lebron and company bangled it in 2004. Additional bonus: Which team did Kobe want to be traded to? The Bulls, because he wanted a team from scratch and walk the path of his idol. Bonus #3. Could you imagine MJ or Lebron flopping the way Lebron does? Bonus #4: IF Lebron joins the Sixers next season, then he is immediately disqualified from the goat conversation and will be remembered as an extremely gifted player who had a well-managed corporate identity and who undoubtedly chased rings for his legacy.)
I am the biggest Lebron fan but I want to be objective and not fall into the deification that Lebron stans are wont to do. Lebron has certainly matured as a player and has a better understanding of the game now than in his early years, and certainly better than many others. But to call him a genius savant for a pass to an open man that anyone who plays ball would have done is laughably stupid. Lebron in his first Cavs years would even reply to reporters something like "you know I only finished high school..." or something like that, and his image (adided by Nike and his marketing team) tightened it up since he went to Miami. This is reflected in his later media appearances as he has matured enough already to say the right things and not let out any negativity in public. His efforts to extend beyond basketball and get involved in social issues is commendable, not even MJ went that far. But it is in his personal unguarded moments that Lebon shows his weird side. Remember the man in the mirror IG post? Zero dark thirty? Letter to himself for a stat that he is about to reach? If not for his on court greatness, Lebron might as well be a cringe teenage emo chick.
Let's go to the stats part. I concede Lebron's greatness makes it possible for him to break records left and right. But it is a byproduct of his realization after Miami that he can't reach MJ's legacy by being the leader of a championship team to match or have more rings than MJ. Hence he went for the numbers. Again, context matters. Westbrook has proven that you can be a stat monster and be a terrible player.
Some specific points now: 1. Lebron makes his teammates better 2. He is a better passer/makes the correct play First, although he is not on Westbrook level poison to his teammates, but how did he make Wade and Bosh better? Allen saved him. And he jumped ship when he knew he can't win with them anymore. What about Kyrie and Love? Kyrie left him, that's all you need to know about him improving his teammates. (For a concrete example of a player improving their teammates, see Nash, Kidd, Magic, and to an extent Duncan.) Better passer and make the correct play? If I remember correctly, someone in the offseason thread showed that Kobe was a better passer in clutch situations and had a better pass/conversion ratio. What about Kobe? Kobe was all about basketball and winning. He had the rape case (non-basketball), being a douche and a loner (also non-basketball), pouty series against the Suns (basketball), but you can't argue that it was manufactured for legacy and not out of sheer desire to win and be the best.
Last point, and this is will be brief. Would you agree with me that a good way to compare which of the two things is better is to actually put them side by side. Fortunately for us, Kobe and Lebron played in the same era. What happened in the times they went one on one? #DOMINATE.
(Let me sneak this one in since it is related. This was ancient Kobe vs. prime Lebron too. And now at 15 years people see Lebron dunk and think it's never been done before. Kobe was still competitive at 18 seasons and was a legitimate contender until the achilles injusry. MJ was still banging at 40. And Kareem was still MVP level at 38.)
well well well
i see that you are a kobe diehard fan stan so i'll let some of your exaggeration slide
i agree on 2 points, kobe is a much much more skillful player than lebron both on offense and defense. this is not debateable. and yes kobe dominated all of their head to head matchups.
but as i said goat conversations are garbage. even when there is overlap between them they are in different points in their careers with different environment.
a better statistical comparison would be kobe and tmac or lebron and melo. that will give us a more objective basis. but that;s lopsided and boring.
going back to goat and stats the problem is the public consume stats as silver bullet indicator of a players value. no single stat sufficiently determines this, and i doubt there ever will be. and even similar statistical units can be stratified.
for example a players 20 points in the first quarter has less value than a 2 point at the final minute of the fourth quarter that ties the game. this is even more true for players who average 20+ points per game with high ur.
i wont go into the proprietary statistical models used in sports analytics but the point is it takes more than one stat unit and it they are subject to a lot of conditions.
i dont really want to weigh in on the goat discussion but just to give a little clarification on those things.
in the end i think the goat discussion is decided by when you were born and what kind of player you prefer.
Bolded part - interesting. But how do teams valuate this? Is there a professional statistical analysis comparing Lebron and Kobe's IQ, at least on playmaking?
On May 01 2018 22:26 JimmiC wrote: I am, I'm really hoping the raps can exercise their demons and beat Lebron. And then watching James when he is playing like this on the offensive end is amazing. Should be a great series.
I hope so to, but Lebron just becomes like Satan-level demon when he sees DD and Lowry that I don't know they could exorcise him. But yeah, even Jordan got rid of Zeke and the Pistons. Tonight is going to be fun.
I'll start with this one since this is the most obvious. Let me also stress that this is not an in-a-vacuum Shaquesque "ringz erneh" argument that implies having more rings means being a better player. Now having said that, we are fortunate that Kobe and Lebron's career actually overlapped. We can argue about which conference is stronger or whose team was more stacked, but those contingencies are part of real life. In the end, winning matters. This is why historically great players such as Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Malone, Drexler, etc. are sidelined because someone else in their era was considered the winner. The fact of the matter is Kobe and Lebron played in the same era, and Kobe won more than Lebron [See Duncan in point #2]. Here's a gem straight from the goat's mouth: "There's something about 5 being more that 3..."
Basketball is a spectators' sport. Other than which team wins, a great part of watching basketball is the pleasure of watching players do their thing. (Before I go further on this, this is the reason why Duncan's "fundamental" basketball takes him out of the goat conversation despite winning 5 just like Kobe.) Being a winner makes one great, but being a winner AND having great basketball skills makes one goat. This is why Kareem, who is a consumate winner, an articulate and well-educated social activist in a time when it was needed the most, and generally a skillful basketball player is often left out of the goat conversation, even though he has a very good argument to be number one. Sure he owned the "sky hook", but does not get fans jumping up in the air with excitement, and that is all he has in terms of moves. This is also why other winners such as Robinson, Zeke, Cousy, Pippen, Fisher, etc. are not only not even within the fringes of greatest conversation, but are easy to forget unless we see them on tv. Conversely, this is also why "non-winners" who have beautiful fancy games are still loved and imitated today, such as Iverson, TMac, Carter, and why we have such special admiration for winners and skillful players like Magic, Hakeem, and MJ.
Now let's play a little game before I go and count the ways on Kobe - name me a Lebron signature move. Chasedown block? Well yeah. But we have to add that it is mostly against smaller guards, and he very rarely goes for a block placing himself between a bigger opponent and the hoop [business decision] (see Durant dunkfest 2017 finals, among many others). Ramming his way to the hoop? Ok. His dunks? Carter, McGrady, Lavine, Richardson, heck even Nate Robinson has better and more creative dunks than him, so it could not be even considered something that he is the best in the league at. His passing and court vision? I have argued this earlier in another NBA thread, and I acknowledge Lebron grow as a better passer, but he is not this magical assist genius that Lebron stans make him out to be. Watch Kidd, Nash, Stockton, and CP3 and you will know what I am talking about. He is a great passer, and he makes difficult passes, but he is nowhere near the others I mentioned in terms of passing skills.
He tries a few moves as well, like MJ/Kobe shoulder shimmy to fadeaway but it looks like the one kobe would make if he had spinal injury and his move was slowed in half. He also has a stepback, but it looks a lot like Hardens, if Harden were 50 years or and had sever arthritis. Lebron is a great player, don't misunderstand, and he can get his shots, rebounds, steals, and assists with ease, but mygod is he a stiff, ungraceful, and ugly player. He is not someone whom you'd watch and dream of copying the next time you play ball.
Kobe, on the other hand... #8 Kobe had a MJ fadeaway version 2.0, under the rim reverse windmill (yes it's a thing), 360 transition dunks, alley oop to himself off the board, to name a few. #24 had a slower but tighter shimmy fadeaway, shuffle step cross over to jump shot or dunk, and highly ill-advised hand in your face swish over 3-4 defenders. And let's not even begin about the footwork. To demonstrate, let's examine three Kobe highlights: 1. full court outlet pass from Horry vs Nuggets, Kobe catches it somewhere within the three point area, dribble, semi hop, right foot, left foot, reverse dunk; 2. vs. Knicks, 16-18 ft right wing, he dribbles toward the baseline with headfake, draws two defenders in the air, pivots to his right for the jumpshot; 3. the filthy move on Manu, behind the back cross over between the legs stepback fake, step through and board shot (ok this is travel-ish, as some of his moves are, but they are so fluid and graceful that it's forgivable, just like Harden's stepbacks are today). I cannot even imagine Lebron doing any of this without blatantly traveling. (All plays I mentioned here are 1 click away on youtube, so you can find them yourselves, but I want to show this as exhibit #8592 of skills comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwOD4BbtmY)
There is no argument to Kobe's killer alpha mentality. The only argument than Lebron stans bring up against this is that Kobe demanded for a trade. And once again, context matters.
Time has proven Shaq to be the petulant irresponsible child in the entire Kobe-Shaq feud. At the time it was happening, it was not obvious since Shaq was such a brilliant and fun media personality and Kobe was an aloof dbag who was facing a rape trial. It was easy to hate on Kobe and side with Shaq, but now that both have matured and the story is clearer, and that Shaq's many flaws being out in the open (being overweight, not practicing, not rehabbing offseason so they can be competitive in the season, shaq being a media slut about it all, etc.) Years later, Kobe again demanded to be traded because Lakers surrounded him Smush Parker and a team far worse than Lebron ever has.
So, were Lebron and Kobe right to demand to be traded or to transfer to another team in hopes of winning a championship? NO. But what happened to their careers after this is where we draw the line. Kobe worked things with the Lakers and worked with Pau and others to win a championship, while being the leader/alpha of the group. (And stop with this Shaq carried Kobe nonsense. In their first ring, that statement is valid, but in their second and third? Kobe is at least equal to Shaq and could even be argued that he and not Shaq led that team to the championship.)
Now let's go to Lebron. Lebron did great epic things in a not-for-championship team in his first Cleveland stint. And he was right to demand for a better team. But what was his solution to this? He joined Wade team and recruited another all star to form the first (inorganic) superteam in modern NBA. I have argued to death elsewhere that I completely understand the political economy behind players controlling their destiny and careers. But you just can't have your cake and eat it too. Lebron can't be called the greatest and underperform with a superteam he helped form twice. Jordan even said that if he were Lebron and had a carreer with Wade/Bosh then Kyrie/Love, he'd have won all rings since 2010 already. Moreover, you can't criticize other players for joining other players in order to better their championship chances and turn a blind eye on Lebron, the original sinner of the super team phenomenon.
And call me old-fashioned and romantic about it, but you can't seriously agree with Lebron when he #striveforgreatness and put himself in the conversation of goat when his path to greatness is one no other goat would even consider. MJ would never call Malone and Olajuwon in their primes to chase rings? Kobe would never call TMac and Iverson to chase rings. They wanted to kill the competition.
(Bonus: Kobe saved the USA Olympics team after Lebron and company bangled it in 2004. Additional bonus: Which team did Kobe want to be traded to? The Bulls, because he wanted a team from scratch and walk the path of his idol. Bonus #3. Could you imagine MJ or Lebron flopping the way Lebron does? Bonus #4: IF Lebron joins the Sixers next season, then he is immediately disqualified from the goat conversation and will be remembered as an extremely gifted player who had a well-managed corporate identity and who undoubtedly chased rings for his legacy.)
I am the biggest Lebron fan but I want to be objective and not fall into the deification that Lebron stans are wont to do. Lebron has certainly matured as a player and has a better understanding of the game now than in his early years, and certainly better than many others. But to call him a genius savant for a pass to an open man that anyone who plays ball would have done is laughably stupid. Lebron in his first Cavs years would even reply to reporters something like "you know I only finished high school..." or something like that, and his image (adided by Nike and his marketing team) tightened it up since he went to Miami. This is reflected in his later media appearances as he has matured enough already to say the right things and not let out any negativity in public. His efforts to extend beyond basketball and get involved in social issues is commendable, not even MJ went that far. But it is in his personal unguarded moments that Lebon shows his weird side. Remember the man in the mirror IG post? Zero dark thirty? Letter to himself for a stat that he is about to reach? If not for his on court greatness, Lebron might as well be a cringe teenage emo chick.
Let's go to the stats part. I concede Lebron's greatness makes it possible for him to break records left and right. But it is a byproduct of his realization after Miami that he can't reach MJ's legacy by being the leader of a championship team to match or have more rings than MJ. Hence he went for the numbers. Again, context matters. Westbrook has proven that you can be a stat monster and be a terrible player.
Some specific points now: 1. Lebron makes his teammates better 2. He is a better passer/makes the correct play First, although he is not on Westbrook level poison to his teammates, but how did he make Wade and Bosh better? Allen saved him. And he jumped ship when he knew he can't win with them anymore. What about Kyrie and Love? Kyrie left him, that's all you need to know about him improving his teammates. (For a concrete example of a player improving their teammates, see Nash, Kidd, Magic, and to an extent Duncan.) Better passer and make the correct play? If I remember correctly, someone in the offseason thread showed that Kobe was a better passer in clutch situations and had a better pass/conversion ratio. What about Kobe? Kobe was all about basketball and winning. He had the rape case (non-basketball), being a douche and a loner (also non-basketball), pouty series against the Suns (basketball), but you can't argue that it was manufactured for legacy and not out of sheer desire to win and be the best.
Last point, and this is will be brief. Would you agree with me that a good way to compare which of the two things is better is to actually put them side by side. Fortunately for us, Kobe and Lebron played in the same era. What happened in the times they went one on one? #DOMINATE.
(Let me sneak this one in since it is related. This was ancient Kobe vs. prime Lebron too. And now at 15 years people see Lebron dunk and think it's never been done before. Kobe was still competitive at 18 seasons and was a legitimate contender until the achilles injusry. MJ was still banging at 40. And Kareem was still MVP level at 38.)
for example a players 20 points in the first quarter has less value than a 2 point at the final minute of the fourth quarter that ties the game. this is even more true for players who average 20+ points per game with high ur.
can u post the reasoning for this, i mean without the 20 points, u could have been down by 15 in the 4th and the 2 points would not have tied the game.
there are no demons for the Raptors to exorcise. the Cavs in 2016 won the title and were better. the 2017 Raptors were a step down from the 2016 team and Lowry got hurt in game 2 and didn't play in games 3 and 4.
its a minor miracle that Casey was able to concoct a rotation with guys like Scola, Biyombo, and Ross into a 6 game series with the 2016 NBA champs. meanwhile, Lowry played with bursitis in his right elbow and couldn't put the ball in lake ontario. if anything the Raptors over achieved.
what has ever become of Scola, Ross and Biyombo...
anyhow.. there is no mysticism at work here. The Cavs were just plain better the last 2 years.
In an era of rampant free agency and Cleveland turning over half its roster twice in the past 12 months here are my thoughts on rivalries in pro sports... basically we're cheering for the clothes. + Show Spoiler +
I'll start with this one since this is the most obvious. Let me also stress that this is not an in-a-vacuum Shaquesque "ringz erneh" argument that implies having more rings means being a better player. Now having said that, we are fortunate that Kobe and Lebron's career actually overlapped. We can argue about which conference is stronger or whose team was more stacked, but those contingencies are part of real life. In the end, winning matters. This is why historically great players such as Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Malone, Drexler, etc. are sidelined because someone else in their era was considered the winner. The fact of the matter is Kobe and Lebron played in the same era, and Kobe won more than Lebron [See Duncan in point #2]. Here's a gem straight from the goat's mouth: "There's something about 5 being more that 3..."
Basketball is a spectators' sport. Other than which team wins, a great part of watching basketball is the pleasure of watching players do their thing. (Before I go further on this, this is the reason why Duncan's "fundamental" basketball takes him out of the goat conversation despite winning 5 just like Kobe.) Being a winner makes one great, but being a winner AND having great basketball skills makes one goat. This is why Kareem, who is a consumate winner, an articulate and well-educated social activist in a time when it was needed the most, and generally a skillful basketball player is often left out of the goat conversation, even though he has a very good argument to be number one. Sure he owned the "sky hook", but does not get fans jumping up in the air with excitement, and that is all he has in terms of moves. This is also why other winners such as Robinson, Zeke, Cousy, Pippen, Fisher, etc. are not only not even within the fringes of greatest conversation, but are easy to forget unless we see them on tv. Conversely, this is also why "non-winners" who have beautiful fancy games are still loved and imitated today, such as Iverson, TMac, Carter, and why we have such special admiration for winners and skillful players like Magic, Hakeem, and MJ.
Now let's play a little game before I go and count the ways on Kobe - name me a Lebron signature move. Chasedown block? Well yeah. But we have to add that it is mostly against smaller guards, and he very rarely goes for a block placing himself between a bigger opponent and the hoop [business decision] (see Durant dunkfest 2017 finals, among many others). Ramming his way to the hoop? Ok. His dunks? Carter, McGrady, Lavine, Richardson, heck even Nate Robinson has better and more creative dunks than him, so it could not be even considered something that he is the best in the league at. His passing and court vision? I have argued this earlier in another NBA thread, and I acknowledge Lebron grow as a better passer, but he is not this magical assist genius that Lebron stans make him out to be. Watch Kidd, Nash, Stockton, and CP3 and you will know what I am talking about. He is a great passer, and he makes difficult passes, but he is nowhere near the others I mentioned in terms of passing skills.
He tries a few moves as well, like MJ/Kobe shoulder shimmy to fadeaway but it looks like the one kobe would make if he had spinal injury and his move was slowed in half. He also has a stepback, but it looks a lot like Hardens, if Harden were 50 years or and had sever arthritis. Lebron is a great player, don't misunderstand, and he can get his shots, rebounds, steals, and assists with ease, but mygod is he a stiff, ungraceful, and ugly player. He is not someone whom you'd watch and dream of copying the next time you play ball.
Kobe, on the other hand... #8 Kobe had a MJ fadeaway version 2.0, under the rim reverse windmill (yes it's a thing), 360 transition dunks, alley oop to himself off the board, to name a few. #24 had a slower but tighter shimmy fadeaway, shuffle step cross over to jump shot or dunk, and highly ill-advised hand in your face swish over 3-4 defenders. And let's not even begin about the footwork. To demonstrate, let's examine three Kobe highlights: 1. full court outlet pass from Horry vs Nuggets, Kobe catches it somewhere within the three point area, dribble, semi hop, right foot, left foot, reverse dunk; 2. vs. Knicks, 16-18 ft right wing, he dribbles toward the baseline with headfake, draws two defenders in the air, pivots to his right for the jumpshot; 3. the filthy move on Manu, behind the back cross over between the legs stepback fake, step through and board shot (ok this is travel-ish, as some of his moves are, but they are so fluid and graceful that it's forgivable, just like Harden's stepbacks are today). I cannot even imagine Lebron doing any of this without blatantly traveling. (All plays I mentioned here are 1 click away on youtube, so you can find them yourselves, but I want to show this as exhibit #8592 of skills comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwOD4BbtmY)
There is no argument to Kobe's killer alpha mentality. The only argument than Lebron stans bring up against this is that Kobe demanded for a trade. And once again, context matters.
Time has proven Shaq to be the petulant irresponsible child in the entire Kobe-Shaq feud. At the time it was happening, it was not obvious since Shaq was such a brilliant and fun media personality and Kobe was an aloof dbag who was facing a rape trial. It was easy to hate on Kobe and side with Shaq, but now that both have matured and the story is clearer, and that Shaq's many flaws being out in the open (being overweight, not practicing, not rehabbing offseason so they can be competitive in the season, shaq being a media slut about it all, etc.) Years later, Kobe again demanded to be traded because Lakers surrounded him Smush Parker and a team far worse than Lebron ever has.
So, were Lebron and Kobe right to demand to be traded or to transfer to another team in hopes of winning a championship? NO. But what happened to their careers after this is where we draw the line. Kobe worked things with the Lakers and worked with Pau and others to win a championship, while being the leader/alpha of the group. (And stop with this Shaq carried Kobe nonsense. In their first ring, that statement is valid, but in their second and third? Kobe is at least equal to Shaq and could even be argued that he and not Shaq led that team to the championship.)
Now let's go to Lebron. Lebron did great epic things in a not-for-championship team in his first Cleveland stint. And he was right to demand for a better team. But what was his solution to this? He joined Wade team and recruited another all star to form the first (inorganic) superteam in modern NBA. I have argued to death elsewhere that I completely understand the political economy behind players controlling their destiny and careers. But you just can't have your cake and eat it too. Lebron can't be called the greatest and underperform with a superteam he helped form twice. Jordan even said that if he were Lebron and had a carreer with Wade/Bosh then Kyrie/Love, he'd have won all rings since 2010 already. Moreover, you can't criticize other players for joining other players in order to better their championship chances and turn a blind eye on Lebron, the original sinner of the super team phenomenon.
And call me old-fashioned and romantic about it, but you can't seriously agree with Lebron when he #striveforgreatness and put himself in the conversation of goat when his path to greatness is one no other goat would even consider. MJ would never call Malone and Olajuwon in their primes to chase rings? Kobe would never call TMac and Iverson to chase rings. They wanted to kill the competition.
(Bonus: Kobe saved the USA Olympics team after Lebron and company bangled it in 2004. Additional bonus: Which team did Kobe want to be traded to? The Bulls, because he wanted a team from scratch and walk the path of his idol. Bonus #3. Could you imagine MJ or Lebron flopping the way Lebron does? Bonus #4: IF Lebron joins the Sixers next season, then he is immediately disqualified from the goat conversation and will be remembered as an extremely gifted player who had a well-managed corporate identity and who undoubtedly chased rings for his legacy.)
I am the biggest Lebron fan but I want to be objective and not fall into the deification that Lebron stans are wont to do. Lebron has certainly matured as a player and has a better understanding of the game now than in his early years, and certainly better than many others. But to call him a genius savant for a pass to an open man that anyone who plays ball would have done is laughably stupid. Lebron in his first Cavs years would even reply to reporters something like "you know I only finished high school..." or something like that, and his image (adided by Nike and his marketing team) tightened it up since he went to Miami. This is reflected in his later media appearances as he has matured enough already to say the right things and not let out any negativity in public. His efforts to extend beyond basketball and get involved in social issues is commendable, not even MJ went that far. But it is in his personal unguarded moments that Lebon shows his weird side. Remember the man in the mirror IG post? Zero dark thirty? Letter to himself for a stat that he is about to reach? If not for his on court greatness, Lebron might as well be a cringe teenage emo chick.
Let's go to the stats part. I concede Lebron's greatness makes it possible for him to break records left and right. But it is a byproduct of his realization after Miami that he can't reach MJ's legacy by being the leader of a championship team to match or have more rings than MJ. Hence he went for the numbers. Again, context matters. Westbrook has proven that you can be a stat monster and be a terrible player.
Some specific points now: 1. Lebron makes his teammates better 2. He is a better passer/makes the correct play First, although he is not on Westbrook level poison to his teammates, but how did he make Wade and Bosh better? Allen saved him. And he jumped ship when he knew he can't win with them anymore. What about Kyrie and Love? Kyrie left him, that's all you need to know about him improving his teammates. (For a concrete example of a player improving their teammates, see Nash, Kidd, Magic, and to an extent Duncan.) Better passer and make the correct play? If I remember correctly, someone in the offseason thread showed that Kobe was a better passer in clutch situations and had a better pass/conversion ratio. What about Kobe? Kobe was all about basketball and winning. He had the rape case (non-basketball), being a douche and a loner (also non-basketball), pouty series against the Suns (basketball), but you can't argue that it was manufactured for legacy and not out of sheer desire to win and be the best.
Last point, and this is will be brief. Would you agree with me that a good way to compare which of the two things is better is to actually put them side by side. Fortunately for us, Kobe and Lebron played in the same era. What happened in the times they went one on one? #DOMINATE.
(Let me sneak this one in since it is related. This was ancient Kobe vs. prime Lebron too. And now at 15 years people see Lebron dunk and think it's never been done before. Kobe was still competitive at 18 seasons and was a legitimate contender until the achilles injusry. MJ was still banging at 40. And Kareem was still MVP level at 38.)
for example a players 20 points in the first quarter has less value than a 2 point at the final minute of the fourth quarter that ties the game. this is even more true for players who average 20+ points per game with high ur.
can u post the reasoning for this, i mean without the 20 points, u could have been down by 15 in the 4th and the 2 points would not have tied the game.
great question.
and i love answering this question frim friends when they ask about sports stat stuff.
but before i answer do you mind answering a few questions related to it? im not baiting or hanging or anything but i want to see perspective of others on this.
1.do you play basketball?
2.what level: >a.not skillfully, just exercise >b.community ymca level >c.could compete with college varsity >d.g-league level
3.when you watch nba what are the thinks that you actively look at?
4.how do you value players especially max or near max level players?
in toronto, street prices of tickets for this Raptors//Cavaliers series are falling.
due to the warning letters MLSE sent out to season's ticket holders and the surprise $7000+ add-on charge MLSE tacked on to whoever they see selling their Raptors tickets online... season's ticket holders are afraid to use online methods of selling their tickets and the prices for this series are falling.
i snagged a pair of Golds from my #2 customer, an auto racing publication, for $300 CDN. he is afraid to try to sell them online. that same pair is $500 CDN online. so thursday should be fun.
many Raptors season's ticket holders are planning on legal action against MLSE. what a clusterfuck.
That ref that called a lane violation on LeBron for stepping over the line after he released his FT is a dick. Such a double standard considering IT has been doing that for years, pretty much every player commits a lane violation on every free throw, and there are tons of other inconsequential bullshit calls the refs could make if they wanted to be a stickler for the rules.
I'll start with this one since this is the most obvious. Let me also stress that this is not an in-a-vacuum Shaquesque "ringz erneh" argument that implies having more rings means being a better player. Now having said that, we are fortunate that Kobe and Lebron's career actually overlapped. We can argue about which conference is stronger or whose team was more stacked, but those contingencies are part of real life. In the end, winning matters. This is why historically great players such as Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, Malone, Drexler, etc. are sidelined because someone else in their era was considered the winner. The fact of the matter is Kobe and Lebron played in the same era, and Kobe won more than Lebron [See Duncan in point #2]. Here's a gem straight from the goat's mouth: "There's something about 5 being more that 3..."
Basketball is a spectators' sport. Other than which team wins, a great part of watching basketball is the pleasure of watching players do their thing. (Before I go further on this, this is the reason why Duncan's "fundamental" basketball takes him out of the goat conversation despite winning 5 just like Kobe.) Being a winner makes one great, but being a winner AND having great basketball skills makes one goat. This is why Kareem, who is a consumate winner, an articulate and well-educated social activist in a time when it was needed the most, and generally a skillful basketball player is often left out of the goat conversation, even though he has a very good argument to be number one. Sure he owned the "sky hook", but does not get fans jumping up in the air with excitement, and that is all he has in terms of moves. This is also why other winners such as Robinson, Zeke, Cousy, Pippen, Fisher, etc. are not only not even within the fringes of greatest conversation, but are easy to forget unless we see them on tv. Conversely, this is also why "non-winners" who have beautiful fancy games are still loved and imitated today, such as Iverson, TMac, Carter, and why we have such special admiration for winners and skillful players like Magic, Hakeem, and MJ.
Now let's play a little game before I go and count the ways on Kobe - name me a Lebron signature move. Chasedown block? Well yeah. But we have to add that it is mostly against smaller guards, and he very rarely goes for a block placing himself between a bigger opponent and the hoop [business decision] (see Durant dunkfest 2017 finals, among many others). Ramming his way to the hoop? Ok. His dunks? Carter, McGrady, Lavine, Richardson, heck even Nate Robinson has better and more creative dunks than him, so it could not be even considered something that he is the best in the league at. His passing and court vision? I have argued this earlier in another NBA thread, and I acknowledge Lebron grow as a better passer, but he is not this magical assist genius that Lebron stans make him out to be. Watch Kidd, Nash, Stockton, and CP3 and you will know what I am talking about. He is a great passer, and he makes difficult passes, but he is nowhere near the others I mentioned in terms of passing skills.
He tries a few moves as well, like MJ/Kobe shoulder shimmy to fadeaway but it looks like the one kobe would make if he had spinal injury and his move was slowed in half. He also has a stepback, but it looks a lot like Hardens, if Harden were 50 years or and had sever arthritis. Lebron is a great player, don't misunderstand, and he can get his shots, rebounds, steals, and assists with ease, but mygod is he a stiff, ungraceful, and ugly player. He is not someone whom you'd watch and dream of copying the next time you play ball.
Kobe, on the other hand... #8 Kobe had a MJ fadeaway version 2.0, under the rim reverse windmill (yes it's a thing), 360 transition dunks, alley oop to himself off the board, to name a few. #24 had a slower but tighter shimmy fadeaway, shuffle step cross over to jump shot or dunk, and highly ill-advised hand in your face swish over 3-4 defenders. And let's not even begin about the footwork. To demonstrate, let's examine three Kobe highlights: 1. full court outlet pass from Horry vs Nuggets, Kobe catches it somewhere within the three point area, dribble, semi hop, right foot, left foot, reverse dunk; 2. vs. Knicks, 16-18 ft right wing, he dribbles toward the baseline with headfake, draws two defenders in the air, pivots to his right for the jumpshot; 3. the filthy move on Manu, behind the back cross over between the legs stepback fake, step through and board shot (ok this is travel-ish, as some of his moves are, but they are so fluid and graceful that it's forgivable, just like Harden's stepbacks are today). I cannot even imagine Lebron doing any of this without blatantly traveling. (All plays I mentioned here are 1 click away on youtube, so you can find them yourselves, but I want to show this as exhibit #8592 of skills comparison https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVwOD4BbtmY)
There is no argument to Kobe's killer alpha mentality. The only argument than Lebron stans bring up against this is that Kobe demanded for a trade. And once again, context matters.
Time has proven Shaq to be the petulant irresponsible child in the entire Kobe-Shaq feud. At the time it was happening, it was not obvious since Shaq was such a brilliant and fun media personality and Kobe was an aloof dbag who was facing a rape trial. It was easy to hate on Kobe and side with Shaq, but now that both have matured and the story is clearer, and that Shaq's many flaws being out in the open (being overweight, not practicing, not rehabbing offseason so they can be competitive in the season, shaq being a media slut about it all, etc.) Years later, Kobe again demanded to be traded because Lakers surrounded him Smush Parker and a team far worse than Lebron ever has.
So, were Lebron and Kobe right to demand to be traded or to transfer to another team in hopes of winning a championship? NO. But what happened to their careers after this is where we draw the line. Kobe worked things with the Lakers and worked with Pau and others to win a championship, while being the leader/alpha of the group. (And stop with this Shaq carried Kobe nonsense. In their first ring, that statement is valid, but in their second and third? Kobe is at least equal to Shaq and could even be argued that he and not Shaq led that team to the championship.)
Now let's go to Lebron. Lebron did great epic things in a not-for-championship team in his first Cleveland stint. And he was right to demand for a better team. But what was his solution to this? He joined Wade team and recruited another all star to form the first (inorganic) superteam in modern NBA. I have argued to death elsewhere that I completely understand the political economy behind players controlling their destiny and careers. But you just can't have your cake and eat it too. Lebron can't be called the greatest and underperform with a superteam he helped form twice. Jordan even said that if he were Lebron and had a carreer with Wade/Bosh then Kyrie/Love, he'd have won all rings since 2010 already. Moreover, you can't criticize other players for joining other players in order to better their championship chances and turn a blind eye on Lebron, the original sinner of the super team phenomenon.
And call me old-fashioned and romantic about it, but you can't seriously agree with Lebron when he #striveforgreatness and put himself in the conversation of goat when his path to greatness is one no other goat would even consider. MJ would never call Malone and Olajuwon in their primes to chase rings? Kobe would never call TMac and Iverson to chase rings. They wanted to kill the competition.
(Bonus: Kobe saved the USA Olympics team after Lebron and company bangled it in 2004. Additional bonus: Which team did Kobe want to be traded to? The Bulls, because he wanted a team from scratch and walk the path of his idol. Bonus #3. Could you imagine MJ or Lebron flopping the way Lebron does? Bonus #4: IF Lebron joins the Sixers next season, then he is immediately disqualified from the goat conversation and will be remembered as an extremely gifted player who had a well-managed corporate identity and who undoubtedly chased rings for his legacy.)
I am the biggest Lebron fan but I want to be objective and not fall into the deification that Lebron stans are wont to do. Lebron has certainly matured as a player and has a better understanding of the game now than in his early years, and certainly better than many others. But to call him a genius savant for a pass to an open man that anyone who plays ball would have done is laughably stupid. Lebron in his first Cavs years would even reply to reporters something like "you know I only finished high school..." or something like that, and his image (adided by Nike and his marketing team) tightened it up since he went to Miami. This is reflected in his later media appearances as he has matured enough already to say the right things and not let out any negativity in public. His efforts to extend beyond basketball and get involved in social issues is commendable, not even MJ went that far. But it is in his personal unguarded moments that Lebon shows his weird side. Remember the man in the mirror IG post? Zero dark thirty? Letter to himself for a stat that he is about to reach? If not for his on court greatness, Lebron might as well be a cringe teenage emo chick.
Let's go to the stats part. I concede Lebron's greatness makes it possible for him to break records left and right. But it is a byproduct of his realization after Miami that he can't reach MJ's legacy by being the leader of a championship team to match or have more rings than MJ. Hence he went for the numbers. Again, context matters. Westbrook has proven that you can be a stat monster and be a terrible player.
Some specific points now: 1. Lebron makes his teammates better 2. He is a better passer/makes the correct play First, although he is not on Westbrook level poison to his teammates, but how did he make Wade and Bosh better? Allen saved him. And he jumped ship when he knew he can't win with them anymore. What about Kyrie and Love? Kyrie left him, that's all you need to know about him improving his teammates. (For a concrete example of a player improving their teammates, see Nash, Kidd, Magic, and to an extent Duncan.) Better passer and make the correct play? If I remember correctly, someone in the offseason thread showed that Kobe was a better passer in clutch situations and had a better pass/conversion ratio. What about Kobe? Kobe was all about basketball and winning. He had the rape case (non-basketball), being a douche and a loner (also non-basketball), pouty series against the Suns (basketball), but you can't argue that it was manufactured for legacy and not out of sheer desire to win and be the best.
Last point, and this is will be brief. Would you agree with me that a good way to compare which of the two things is better is to actually put them side by side. Fortunately for us, Kobe and Lebron played in the same era. What happened in the times they went one on one? #DOMINATE.
(Let me sneak this one in since it is related. This was ancient Kobe vs. prime Lebron too. And now at 15 years people see Lebron dunk and think it's never been done before. Kobe was still competitive at 18 seasons and was a legitimate contender until the achilles injusry. MJ was still banging at 40. And Kareem was still MVP level at 38.)
for example a players 20 points in the first quarter has less value than a 2 point at the final minute of the fourth quarter that ties the game. this is even more true for players who average 20+ points per game with high ur.
can u post the reasoning for this, i mean without the 20 points, u could have been down by 15 in the 4th and the 2 points would not have tied the game.
great question.
and i love answering this question frim friends when they ask about sports stat stuff.
but before i answer do you mind answering a few questions related to it? im not baiting or hanging or anything but i want to see perspective of others on this.
1.do you play basketball?
2.what level: >a.not skillfully, just exercise >b.community ymca level >c.could compete with college varsity >d.g-league level
3.when you watch nba what are the thinks that you actively look at?
4.how do you value players especially max or near max level players?
1. used to 2. exercise 3. player movement mainly 4. what abilities they bring, and how they fit the team
EPT
