On June 12 2017 03:20 Jerubaal wrote: It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
On June 10 2017 12:44 Scarecrow wrote: The nba wants a game 5 in GS? or is it just bad?
How was draymond not given a flagrant for that mugging of TT?
Thompson came up after Livingston fouled him trying to draw the foul. Draymond was caught in the air. Not flagrant.
Had to wait to see it again, but the way he jumped in to TT and came down on his head was clearly a flagrant. But it was draymond, so they didn't call it.
He jumped straight up, expecting TT to keep momentum. When TT stopped, Draymond was caught in the air. After Livingston fouled him, TT stayed on the ground and then drew the foul by trying to shoot. Draymond couldn't stop his momentum even if he tried. It was not flagrant. No matter your leaning in the games, Draymond didn't intend to jump on his back. Anyone could have done the exact same move, and not be called.
Everything you said is true...except he put a little extra on the way down.
On June 12 2017 03:20 Jerubaal wrote: It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
An automatic ejection, really?
From what it looked like to me, the ref was trying to separate some players and Lebron gets in his way while yelling. Idk, maybe they were having a nice cordial conversation.
As a teacher, if a student does the equivalent of what Lebron does, that's a "time to go nuclear" moment.
On June 10 2017 12:44 Scarecrow wrote: The nba wants a game 5 in GS? or is it just bad?
How was draymond not given a flagrant for that mugging of TT?
Thompson came up after Livingston fouled him trying to draw the foul. Draymond was caught in the air. Not flagrant.
https://youtu.be/0ZfZuPt0iVM?t=9m50s Had to wait to see it again, but the way he jumped in to TT and came down on his head was clearly a flagrant. But it was draymond, so they didn't call it.
He jumped straight up, expecting TT to keep momentum. When TT stopped, Draymond was caught in the air. After Livingston fouled him, TT stayed on the ground and then drew the foul by trying to shoot. Draymond couldn't stop his momentum even if he tried. It was not flagrant. No matter your leaning in the games, Draymond didn't intend to jump on his back. Anyone could have done the exact same move, and not be called.
Everything you said is true...except he put a little extra on the way down.
On June 12 2017 03:20 Jerubaal wrote: It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
An automatic ejection, really?
From what it looked like to me, the ref was trying to separate some players and Lebron gets in his way while yelling. Idk, maybe they were having a nice cordial conversation.
As a teacher, if a student does the equivalent of what Lebron does, that's a "time to go nuclear" moment.
LeBron looked like he was upset that the ref was pulling on Shump while he was off balance, and maybe upset in general because that was a heated situation. I think it was good on the ref to not overreact to it and cause more shit, LeBron didn't shove him he just got him off Shump and said something.
I could see an argument he deserves a petty T for it, which would've been an ejection because he had 1 already, but in a vacuum there is no fucking way that play is a double tech.
Lebron is getting in the way of the official while he is dealing with an ongoing situation. Makes contact with him. Yells at him. Puts his hand out to ward him off. How is that not deserving? Ok, I'll moderate and say a tech- albeit an instant one. And a phone call from the commissioner. It seems like a very dangerous precedent to be setting. It seems like typical Lebron license to me.
On June 12 2017 07:29 cLutZ wrote: Honestly, that is an unhealthy way to think about Adult-Adult interactions (and interactions with any one over 11 TBH(.
What makes you think age has anything to do with it? The fact that so many things in the sporting world and in this forum remind me of child psychology should be telling that many people, from Carmelo to Brees, think with their pride more than their brains. You can be gently reminded or mildly punished for violating the rules of the game, but if you start messing with the rulemaker (i.e. the ref), then you need to be removed from the game.
See, I disagree. The worst situations I encounter are when the decision-maker is the same person as the "aggrieved party". This is in the Patent law world for me, and also previously as a reference/ump in 3 different sports (also previous to that interactions with teachers who, in my experience quarrel with the smartest students more often than the worst behaved students) makes me think that refs should not have the authority to call techs, which is the whole point of judges and appellate judges.
Well you'll have to expand a bit more on the patent law thing. Isn't the judge analogous to the referee? The equivalent would be if the judge had to call contempt of court. That sort of thing does not happen very often and it does not happen by accident.
I don't see the fact that the ref is aggrieved and also the decision maker as a problem when "aggrieving" the ref is the offence. The job of the ref is to run the game, just as it's the job of the teacher to run the classroom. If a player is interfering with that, there isn't really an excuse. Whatever the player thinks is so important at the moment is secondary to maintaining control of the game. We've seen what happens when that's lost.
Honestly, I think the ref was just surprised that Lebron came at him in such an aggressive manner. And maybe he thought a tech would have caused an even bigger blow up. Refs, however, don't see a player every game and they usually don't have the option of discussing it with the player "after class". He has no way of knowing if the League will follow up on it. He also knows that Lebron is the Golden One and they need to milk that +22% ratings.
You'd think the players would want these games to be well officiated. There are players on both teams who have shown they have no qualms about cheap shots.
On June 12 2017 14:07 Jerubaal wrote: Well you'll have to expand a bit more on the patent law thing. Isn't the judge analogous to the referee? The equivalent would be if the judge had to call contempt of court. That sort of thing does not happen very often and it does not happen by accident.
In patent law, for over 90% of what I do, I work against/with (kind of both at the same time) Patent Examiners at the USPTO. In this case, the Patent Examiner is the equivalent of the prosecutor, the judge, and the jury. This is why there is both an internal and external patent appeals system. In my experience, most of the time, all I need to do is to get a 2nd set of eyes on a problem where I have a dispute with the Examiner to win a case that is even mildly aggravating.
On June 12 2017 14:07 Jerubaal wrote: I don't see the fact that the ref is aggrieved and also the decision maker as a problem when "aggrieving" the ref is the offence. The job of the ref is to run the game, just as it's the job of the teacher to run the classroom. If a player is interfering with that, there isn't really an excuse. Whatever the player thinks is so important at the moment is secondary to maintaining control of the game. We've seen what happens when that's lost.
As someone who has been a ref, a patent examiner, and a patent prosecution attorney, I simply disagree with you. A ref is nothing like a judge, he is like the judge/prosecutor/jury hybrid I described earlier. It is incredibly easy to take offense of even minor things when someone is disputing what you do, even moreso in a quick decision as with techs. I, honestly, do not think any human is qualified to referee games. It is extremely hard just to get "the calls" right, its even harder to be dispassionate about when people say your calls are wrong. In an ideal system, IMO, a person would teach the class (and "run the classroom" as you say) and another would grade the students.
On June 12 2017 14:07 Jerubaal wrote: Honestly, I think the ref was just surprised that Lebron came at him in such an aggressive manner. And maybe he thought a tech would have caused an even bigger blow up. Refs, however, don't see a player every game and they usually don't have the option of discussing it with the player "after class". He has no way of knowing if the League will follow up on it. He also knows that Lebron is the Golden One and they need to milk that +22% ratings.
You'd think the players would want these games to be well officiated. There are players on both teams who have shown they have no qualms about cheap shots.
Just as the worst students prefer a system of arbitrary grading and bias towards "teachers pets", so too do the worst teachers prefer an arbitrary system where it is nearly impossible for them to be fired. In all non-objective systems the best people lose. The best people are always a minority, usually a significant minority.
Nobody is qualified to referee? Well, that may be true, but there are a lot of things nobody is qualified to do, but somebody has to do it. And, while you can't get rid of human nature, you can train yourself to do a much better job. The most important way is just experience. These refs have been insulted by a player on every team. At a certain point, you stop wasting emotional energy reacting to it. I hope you tasted a small bit of this as an umpire.
Of course the "child" is going to want a mess of an officiating system because they think that whenever it goes against their opponent it's justified and whenever it goes against them it's a travesty. It takes an adult to stop and think about what's best for everyone.
You also seem to have some points that don't seem to directly bear on the sport, so I'll let those be.
On June 12 2017 03:20 Jerubaal wrote: It's really weird. The Warriors must be feeling annoyed right now, but they know they can't say shit because the refs are protecting Draymond, who looked like he could have gotten 3 or 4 techs that game. Pachulia is a chump. And holy cow, that should have been an automatic ejection on Lebron, getting up in the officials face like that.
An automatic ejection, really?
I rewatched that Lebron moment, and unless I'm looking at the wrong scene, I honestly don't see how even a tech could be called. Sure, he touched the ref, but it didn't seem like aggressive contact at all, he just touches him on the arm, not even pushing. The ref is dragging Shumpert back from the action, which is why he's walking backward, and you see Lebron just talk to him at the same time and also dragging Shumpert back (which is the main thing Lebron is doing really). Lebron might have just been telling the ref to let him handle his teammate or something.
In general, in this kind of heated "melee" situations, refs are not going to hand out techs (let alone ejections) to any player doing incidental contact with them. Just the initiators, which Lebron is clearly not.
Edit: to be fair, I can't imagine what Lebron would have to do to warrant an ejection. He might be the most important person to keep on the floor for the NBA. I could see the refs giving him a tech for taking some rest :D.
The real question in my mind tonight is whether Kerr is finally going to make some adjustments and start small. I doubt that Cleveland will have anything resembling Game 4's performance, so he probably doesn't have to do anything. But the fact that Cleveland has been ruthlessly abusing Pachulia, McGee, and West should give him pause. He really should cut down on their minutes.
On June 12 2017 14:24 cLutZ wrote: he is like the judge/prosecutor/jury hybrid I described earlier. It is incredibly easy to take offense of even minor things when someone is disputing what you do, even moreso in a quick decision as with techs.
I, honestly, do not think any human is qualified to referee games.
meh, so we live in an imperfect world and we must socialize with other imperfect humans. For years the New Jersey Devils were the least penalized team in the NHL precisely because they rarely publicly/outwardly complained to the officials. if you outwardly complained to the referee and you were not the captain you lost substantial playing time. part of it was also they were a disciplined team that didn't partake in idiocy. But they also had the hardest hitter in the league. Lou Lamierello and t he New Jersey Devils knew how to manage the egos of the on ice officials and it greatly benefitted them.
work the system. as both a catcher and later an umpire i learned to play the game within a game. when i was hitting i never ever complained about a call because i wanted the umpire on my side for the 100 or so pitches when our pitcher was throwing. my 1 at bat was not worth as much as the 30+ ABs of our opponents. so i shut up.
managing the egos of the officials is part of your job as an on ice/court/field competitor.
I am not, as some people seem to think, complaining about innacuracy, or even refs being emotional. I just think its silly that in huge leagues like the NBA, NFL, NHL, etc that they don't have an extra "ref" who's job is resolving player-ref conflicts. He should not be part of the player or ref unions, and preferably not drawn from either.
there are 2 many guys out there now. i like the game as imperfect as it is right now. the Pittsburgh Penguins just won the Stanley Cup on a quick whistle disallowing a goal.... its part of the game.
did Franco Harris really catch that ball for the "immaculate reception" or did it bounce off the ground? meh... the Jorge Orta double play ball... i can go on and on...
these mistakes are all part of the game.
and the bitching and moaning about officiating by these fragile snowflakes is both maudlin and banal.
these clowns should try 1 week of living what jackie robinson lived through.. and he did it with his mouth abso-fucking-lutely shut. LBJ telling us he is the "new sheriff in town" and then gets "offended" when someone calls the people around him a "posse"....pppffft.. whatever man. i bet you the combined square footage of LBJs properties is more than 200X as big as whatever hovel Jackie Robinson lived in.
Warren Moon froze his fucking balls off playing in Edmonton in November for 5 years because no NFL team would give a black QB a shot. Michael Sam plays 1 game in warm Montreal and packs up and goes home and keeps on pointing fingers..... whatever man.
my message to the 20 or so fragile snowflakes who live in 50,000 square foot mansions and are playing tonight ...is this:
we live in an imperfect world. move forward and make it work. stop expecting "perfect authority figures" to always make the world right for you.
On June 12 2017 16:37 Jerubaal wrote: Nobody is qualified to referee? Well, that may be true, but there are a lot of things nobody is qualified to do, but somebody has to do it. And, while you can't get rid of human nature, you can train yourself to do a much better job. The most important way is just experience. These refs have been insulted by a player on every team. At a certain point, you stop wasting emotional energy reacting to it. I hope you tasted a small bit of this as an umpire.
Of course the "child" is going to want a mess of an officiating system because they think that whenever it goes against their opponent it's justified and whenever it goes against them it's a travesty. It takes an adult to stop and think about what's best for everyone.
You also seem to have some points that don't seem to directly bear on the sport, so I'll let those be.
I can kinda agree with Clutz's points that it is really difficult to deal with somebody who is their own appeals court. Pride almost always overrides rationality in these cases. You can train yourself to mitigate it but it's extremely difficult for people to admit they are wrong in the heat of the moment. The other issue is that NBA refs are empowered to call a lot of technical fouls. The other sport I watch is the NFL and referees there very rarely flag players for transgressions against officials. I almost never see it.
But refs only have control over one game. If there is a more serious punishment to be levied, it goes to the League office. (The teacher/principal comparison is more apt in that sense.)
You guys keep referencing how hard it is to admit you're wrong, but why is this even a question? There should not be a discussion of the correctness of the refs calls on the court. It's pointless. The ref is not going to change his call because you came up to him and informed him he is blind. Actually, if we follow your logic, the ref should call more fouls on the complainer and we often see that the opposite occurs. Homecourt advantage probably has much more effect on officiating than the refs ego. It's really not that hard to ignore minor amounts of attitude, considering you hear it every game. If a player is far exceeding that level of abuse, then that in itself, is a breach of the rules.
No, you don't see flags for official abuse in the NFL. Then again, players aren't running up to the refs after every play in football to yell at them. All things considered, I think the NFL is more strict. If a player starts yelling at a ref a few times, they will get a flag.
I think the system they have could work if the NBA would retroactively take away techs and suspend refs that give them out too much very often, but they don't. In fact, they give out stupid fines when someone accurately points out a problem with the reffing. In that way, they are like the Principal that always sides with the teachers, then acts all confused when there are 80 parents beating down his door because somehow all his male honors students (and it always seems to be males) are all of the sudden getting C-'s in one new teacher's class that uses a subjective grading system.
On June 13 2017 07:31 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: What's the predictions for tonight? Does GSW close it out? Or do the Cavs come back?
Warriors will close it out. Cavs caught lightning in a bottle in Game 4. That's not happening again. Even if Kerr makes minimal adjustments, the Warriors are too good to lose like that again, and the Cavs simply aren't going to have another shooting performance like they did Game 4.
EPT
