Disappointing loss for the Clippers, but they should take heart in the fact that this was the first year under Doc, who brought in wholesale changes on both ends of the floor. There were also quite a few new faces to integrate throughout the season, and injuries that caused them to have to field many different lineups and limit their familiarity with particular rotations/lineups.
Getting eliminated by the Thunder isn't an embarrassment either, as they were the better team all year and had the league MVP playing amazing ball for almost the entire series. It's not like they were favored and pissed a series away, they were the underdogs and were very close to making it to the conference finals by beating a very tough opponent. It was frustrating to see the amount of foul calls and FTs Westbrook and Durant managed to draw all series long, but it's nothing new and they've been getting those calls for a couple of years now.
There's reason to believe that there's room for growth. Blake took a huge step forward this year, but he's still very young and will almost certainly improve even more next season. They will have a greater familiarity with Doc and his systems, and additional playoff experience to build off of. The only major concern (and it's a huge one) is the potential problems from the Sterlings, but hopefully the league will figure out a way to head that off.
Clippers need to shore up their bench, I've said it all year.
Problem is I can't see them doing that unless they drop more money than Brooklyn is spending.
Jared Dudley was a complete dud on the team and other than Jamal Crawford and OCCASIONALLY Darren Collison they have absolutely no offense coming off their bench.
Then there's also their periods where they seemingly lose all sense of cohesion and just start turning the ball over randomly or breaking down completely on defense. OKC does that too, but when it happens to LAC it just gets bad really quickly.
They weren't ready for a Championship this year, I never thought for a second they were. Blake Griffin is becoming a true superstar and DeAndre Jordan improved almost as much as he did. If that trend continues LAC will be contenders in a year or two, but they just weren't ready yet this year.
On May 16 2014 19:06 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Disappointing loss for the Clippers, but they should take heart in the fact that this was the first year under Doc, who brought in wholesale changes on both ends of the floor. There were also quite a few new faces to integrate throughout the season, and injuries that caused them to have to field many different lineups and limit their familiarity with particular rotations/lineups.
Getting eliminated by the Thunder isn't an embarrassment either, as they were the better team all year and had the league MVP playing amazing ball for almost the entire series. It's not like they were favored and pissed a series away, they were the underdogs and were very close to making it to the conference finals by beating a very tough opponent. It was frustrating to see the amount of foul calls and FTs Westbrook and Durant managed to draw all series long, but it's nothing new and they've been getting those calls for a couple of years now.
There's reason to believe that there's room for growth. Blake took a huge step forward this year, but he's still very young and will almost certainly improve even more next season. They will have a greater familiarity with Doc and his systems, and additional playoff experience to build off of. The only major concern (and it's a huge one) is the potential problems from the Sterlings, but hopefully the league will figure out a way to head that off.
RowdierBob: Don't be a jackass
They're still soft show ponies. I stand by it.
Guys like Matt Barnes and DJ are fools gold IMO (and very overrated defenders). Reddick has been a big disappointment and especially so Jared Dudley. Remember they traded those two guys for Bledsoe of all players.
They've got serious deficiencies at the 2 and 3. Both very important positions in the modern NBA.
Blake for mine has been the big revelation this year. He's got a good case for being a top 5 player now. And the Clips need him to be for as good as CP3 is, it's difficult for teams to go deep with an undersized PG as your best player.
Blake and Paul are keepers but I'd be looking at some serious retooling outside of those two (Jamal's a good sixth man too but was forced to play outside his abilities since Reddick pooped his pants).
I'm obviously a Clippers hater but that team has a long way to go. They're a long way from being a championship level team.
On May 16 2014 18:40 RowdierBob wrote: That one O foul on Paul v Collison was wrong. The others were dead right. The Clips are mentally weak show ponies.
Toughen the fuck up and maybe you'll win something one day.
Actually the CP foul on Collison was right.
Watch CP's left arm hook and sweep Collison's leg out from under him while he was in the air, Collison wasn't just bumped as it appeared at first glance. It was a dirty play.
@Bob: Chris Paul isn't undersized. Him being their best player isn't the problem. I mean read what you wrote - the problem for the Clippers were mostly to do with guys outside of their best 3 players.
The " can't win with a 6ft point guard" narrative shows a serious lack of understanding about how this game works, and especially the series that was just played.
@Vindicare/Xyric: I had the Clippers as contenders even with a trash bench. I think they were that close (and after this series I'm reaffirmed of it) because of how great CP3 is, and Blake and DJ having some great games. Besides Big Baby costing them every game he showed up in, the Collison/Redick/JC trio sported a few problems on both sides of the ball. Having no wing outside of Matt Barnes show up in some games absolutely crushed them. One good backup big and I think they are in the WCF vs Spurs. Oh well, always next year.
On May 16 2014 19:06 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Disappointing loss for the Clippers, but they should take heart in the fact that this was the first year under Doc, who brought in wholesale changes on both ends of the floor. There were also quite a few new faces to integrate throughout the season, and injuries that caused them to have to field many different lineups and limit their familiarity with particular rotations/lineups.
Getting eliminated by the Thunder isn't an embarrassment either, as they were the better team all year and had the league MVP playing amazing ball for almost the entire series. It's not like they were favored and pissed a series away, they were the underdogs and were very close to making it to the conference finals by beating a very tough opponent. It was frustrating to see the amount of foul calls and FTs Westbrook and Durant managed to draw all series long, but it's nothing new and they've been getting those calls for a couple of years now.
There's reason to believe that there's room for growth. Blake took a huge step forward this year, but he's still very young and will almost certainly improve even more next season. They will have a greater familiarity with Doc and his systems, and additional playoff experience to build off of. The only major concern (and it's a huge one) is the potential problems from the Sterlings, but hopefully the league will figure out a way to head that off.
RowdierBob: Don't be a jackass
They're still soft show ponies. I stand by it.
Guys like Matt Barnes and DJ are fools gold IMO (and very overrated defenders).
How the hell is DJ fools gold? He led the league in FG%, defensive boards and was 2nd in blocks. 2nd in offensive boards too whilst having the same fouls as blake. He doesn't get injured much, isn't crazy like demarcus or moody like hibbert. All on an $11 mill salary.
They're hardly a long way from being championship level. This OKC series was very close and having a decent back-up big instead of Big Baby is probably enough to tip the balance (I'd already call them a contender, losing 1 series doesn't mean they're rubbish).
When Big Baby would help on a guy 5 feet away and be too slow to recover to his own man ->>>> LOSS. When he couldn't box out his own man because he was too slow to gain position ->>>> LOSS. Helping out on a guy that didn't need help ->>>> LOSS. Being useless on offense ->>>> LOSS (he couldn't even set screens well)
If Doc brings this guy back for major minutes next year he has to be jobbing the team.
On May 16 2014 19:06 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Disappointing loss for the Clippers, but they should take heart in the fact that this was the first year under Doc, who brought in wholesale changes on both ends of the floor. There were also quite a few new faces to integrate throughout the season, and injuries that caused them to have to field many different lineups and limit their familiarity with particular rotations/lineups.
Getting eliminated by the Thunder isn't an embarrassment either, as they were the better team all year and had the league MVP playing amazing ball for almost the entire series. It's not like they were favored and pissed a series away, they were the underdogs and were very close to making it to the conference finals by beating a very tough opponent. It was frustrating to see the amount of foul calls and FTs Westbrook and Durant managed to draw all series long, but it's nothing new and they've been getting those calls for a couple of years now.
There's reason to believe that there's room for growth. Blake took a huge step forward this year, but he's still very young and will almost certainly improve even more next season. They will have a greater familiarity with Doc and his systems, and additional playoff experience to build off of. The only major concern (and it's a huge one) is the potential problems from the Sterlings, but hopefully the league will figure out a way to head that off.
RowdierBob: Don't be a jackass
They're still soft show ponies. I stand by it.
Guys like Matt Barnes and DJ are fools gold IMO (and very overrated defenders).
How the hell is DJ fools gold? He led the league in FG%, defensive boards and was 2nd in blocks. 2nd in offensive boards too whilst having the same fouls as blake. He doesn't get injured much, isn't crazy like demarcus or moody like hibbert. All on an $11 mill salary.
They're hardly a long way from being championship level. This OKC series was very close and having a decent back-up big instead of Big Baby is probably enough to tip the balance (I'd already call them a contender, losing 1 series doesn't mean they're rubbish).
He's an OK defender but very overrated. I haven't checked the stats from the OKC series but I bet they scored a lot in the paint. Hell, even the Dubs with a Lee/Green front court were outscoring the Clips in the paint.
He's an outstanding athlete and shot blocker (which accounts for his rebounding and blocks) but not a smart defender. A rich man's Javale if you will. But even his blocking is overrated. The amount of times you see him spiking a ball into the crowd (because it looks cool on ESPN's top 10) when he could just as easily maintain possession for his team makes me shake my head. Doc's helped him get his shit together to a point but he's still very raw for mine.
I said it at the start of the year when I argued this with the slyboogie: the Clips interior D isn't strong enough to take them all the way.
@Ace: I'm just trolling about CP3 . Sorry. But in saying that, has there ever been a championship team led by an undersized PG? I can think of Isiah and that's about it. But there's way more context to it so yeah, I'm just poking you with a stick. :p
@karazax: you're right, the refs did get that one right also. CP3's still a dirty little bugger. At least he has graduated from nut punching dudes.
I don't know if there has been if discounting Isaiah and maybe even TP - my stance here is that it's a stupid question. It's like asking has anyone ever won a championship with their best player being a SG that's undersized - largely irrelevant. The real questions aren't about height (it's about wingspan) and the actual level of play the PG displays. Chris Paul and Westbrook were the best players in this series, and neither one of them failed or succeeded in games because of their height.
As to the gif Chris Paul had no where else to go. He put his hand up so he didn't get hit in the face. He's still guilty of being slick with his hands in general though.
ETA: As to Isaiah - I'd say he arguably wasn't the best player on the Pistons either for all of their run. Really, the problem with these statements is that no one ever explains why the PG is actually the problem. Even when they put up legendary series and lose against better teams, the referendum is on their height and rare discussion on what actually happened in the games.
On May 16 2014 22:52 Ace wrote: @Bob: Chris Paul isn't undersized. Him being their best player isn't the problem. I mean read what you wrote - the problem for the Clippers were mostly to do with guys outside of their best 3 players.
The " can't win with a 6ft point guard" narrative shows a serious lack of understanding about how this game works, and especially the series that was just played.
No, its not. Its a recognition that small players, even if they are ostensibly good defenders, like Chris Paul, are defensive liabilities, and also a recognition that there is a "max salary" in this league that lets you massively under pay elite players. Its also a recognition that point guard is the deepest position in the league, and that if you have a 6'4"+ ball handler like Wade, James, Kobe, George, Stephenson, Harden, etc, the "short guy" position is incredibly easy to fill cheaply with competent players when compared to a "talk guy" position.
This is why, even though CP3 is the most skilled player in the league, he isn't the best. And when you account for scarcity, probably not even top 10 most valuable.
On May 16 2014 22:52 Ace wrote: @Bob: Chris Paul isn't undersized. Him being their best player isn't the problem. I mean read what you wrote - the problem for the Clippers were mostly to do with guys outside of their best 3 players.
The " can't win with a 6ft point guard" narrative shows a serious lack of understanding about how this game works, and especially the series that was just played.
No, its not. Its a recognition that small players, even if they are ostensibly good defenders, like Chris Paul, are defensive liabilities, and also a recognition that there is a "max salary" in this league that lets you massively under pay elite players. Its also a recognition that point guard is the deepest position in the league, and that if you have a 6'4"+ ball handler like Wade, James, Kobe, George, Stephenson, Harden, etc, the "short guy" position is incredibly easy to fill cheaply with competent players when compared to a "talk guy" position.
This is why, even though CP3 is the most skilled player in the league, he isn't the best. And when you account for scarcity, probably not even top 10 most valuable.
Chris Paul isn't a defensive liability though. Even so, his offensive level of play is all time great and more than offsets whatever defensive negatives you assume he has. The problem with the max salary argument is that you keep looking at "point guard" and saying it's the deepest position as if the Clippers problem is Chris Paul not being far above the nominal level of his contemporaries - news flash, he is. If you really think the Clippers could so something like trade CP3 and DJ for a superstar big such as Dwight Howard or prime Duncan and win with the same roster you are sorely mistaken on the level of play some of these guys are capable of. Filling the short guy position with cheap talent is easy, sure. Filling any position with hall of fame level players is the difficult part. It doesn't matter that Chris Paul is 6'0 - he's the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league. You'd have to be incredibly foolish to think you can just find a replacement level point guard for cheap, fill in the slot with a superstar big and expect a better result. You're already getting the discount - it's Chris Paul at below market rate.
There is some truth to it. Paul's lacking the physical capabilities of a Lebron will always mean he isn't a better player. Even if Paul is of equal or greater skill (which he just might be).
Like in any elite sport, there are certain things you can't coach and it's why athletic ability is so coveted. It's why guys, rightly or wrongly, like Bogut get drafted ahead of CP3 or Thabeet ahead of Curry.
History shows the bigger, more dominant athletes at their position tend to win trophies.
But in the Clippers' case, CP3's athletic abilities are not close to the reasons they don't succeed more.
On May 16 2014 18:39 RowdierBob wrote: Ok Clipper fans, what's this year's excuse?
Or have you taken the easy out on the ref whambulance?
Probably don't even make round two if Bogut's playing for the Dubs ( :D )
Not nice dood.
On May 16 2014 19:06 XaI)CyRiC wrote: Disappointing loss for the Clippers, but they should take heart in the fact that this was the first year under Doc, who brought in wholesale changes on both ends of the floor. There were also quite a few new faces to integrate throughout the season, and injuries that caused them to have to field many different lineups and limit their familiarity with particular rotations/lineups.
Getting eliminated by the Thunder isn't an embarrassment either, as they were the better team all year and had the league MVP playing amazing ball for almost the entire series. It's not like they were favored and pissed a series away, they were the underdogs and were very close to making it to the conference finals by beating a very tough opponent. It was frustrating to see the amount of foul calls and FTs Westbrook and Durant managed to draw all series long, but it's nothing new and they've been getting those calls for a couple of years now.
There's reason to believe that there's room for growth. Blake took a huge step forward this year, but he's still very young and will almost certainly improve even more next season. They will have a greater familiarity with Doc and his systems, and additional playoff experience to build off of. The only major concern (and it's a huge one) is the potential problems from the Sterlings, but hopefully the league will figure out a way to head that off.
RowdierBob: Don't be a jackass
I agree mostly, except the Clippers weren't the underdogs when the series started, the Thunder were. It was definitely a close matchup all the way through, and part of the reason they were favored at the time (IMO) is b/c they had that us-against-the-world thing going for a while with the Sterling issue.
On May 17 2014 00:24 RowdierBob wrote: For argument's sake then, would you rather build your team around the greatest PG of all time or greatest PF/C?
I know which I'd take.
Right. Your last 2 posts are great. Chris Paul will never be able to physically dominate a game like a Lebron James. However, I don't think that matters. His teams aren't winning titles because they just aren't good enough, not because CP3's athleticism isn't up to par. I mean look at what we've just seen - the Clippers lost to the #2 seed with an All Time great and current MVP in Kevin Durant. They didn't have HCA and were close to winning, and Durant wasn't even one of the top 2 players in the series. Think a bit about what actually happened here.
As to the bolded, there are only 4 PGs I'd "build around" anyway ( I assume you mean I only get a #1 pick and no chance at another star player), and a few Centers as well. The problem with questions such as these is that the position isn't really relevant here - the skill level of the players matter. People don't like to hear it but Magic/Nash/CP3/Kidd are extremely rare talents that stack up to some of the best bigs of All Time.
/in b4 someone lists Bill Russel as a top 5 player ever and would pick over CP3/Magic and have no idea how bad he was on offense
On May 17 2014 00:08 Ace wrote: As to the gif Chris Paul had no where else to go. He put his hand up so he didn't get hit in the face. He's still guilty of being slick with his hands in general though.
His right hand that he raised up had no where to go, his left hand did not need to reach around Collison's leg and sweep it forward, which is what caused Collison to land on his back rather than his feet. Paul was lucky it wasn't a flagrant foul and potential ejection to be honest, and Collison was lucky he didn't suffer a serious injury.
Except, magic was like 6'8", and played more like lbj than any of the guys you listed. And the other three have 1 championship combined, 0 as a highly paid star.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://giant.gfycat.com/HandsomeImpassionedGenet.gif)
. Sorry. But in saying that, has there ever been a championship team led by an undersized PG? I can think of Isiah and that's about it. But there's way more context to it so yeah, I'm just poking you with a stick. :p
