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NBA Offseason 2013 - Page 80

Forum Index > Sports
Post a Reply
Prev 1 78 79 80 81 82 90 Next
BoZiffer
Profile Joined November 2011
United States1841 Posts
October 02 2013 22:20 GMT
#1581
On October 03 2013 04:45 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 18:35 Ace wrote:
On October 02 2013 14:00 cLutZ wrote:
People underestimate how ridiculously hard 1v1 defense is.

A person who wants to win never has to settle for anything worse than a layup or a baby hook. This is exactly how I beat our HS team's starting SG in 1v1 (I wrestled 140 lbs and he is 6 inches taller than me). This is one reason to give Jordan an edge, because Lebron might be goofy enough to try Fadeaways, 3s, and Face up Jumpers instead of driving/backing down every time.


true except at the NBA level those guys are such good shooters they will be hitting a lot of them easily. One reason why if starting from the top of the key wing players have a massive advantage over bigs that can't dribble well.


Yea, in 1v1 I would expect them to hit 50%+ from anywhere on the floor. My point is you really just win 1v1s via shot selection (mostly) and not settling for shots that you aren't like 70%+.


Ace <3 Jibba <3


Thats what I'm saying man...Bernard King.
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
October 02 2013 22:59 GMT
#1582
On October 03 2013 04:45 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 18:35 Ace wrote:
On October 02 2013 14:00 cLutZ wrote:
People underestimate how ridiculously hard 1v1 defense is.

A person who wants to win never has to settle for anything worse than a layup or a baby hook. This is exactly how I beat our HS team's starting SG in 1v1 (I wrestled 140 lbs and he is 6 inches taller than me). This is one reason to give Jordan an edge, because Lebron might be goofy enough to try Fadeaways, 3s, and Face up Jumpers instead of driving/backing down every time.


true except at the NBA level those guys are such good shooters they will be hitting a lot of them easily. One reason why if starting from the top of the key wing players have a massive advantage over bigs that can't dribble well.


Yea, in 1v1 I would expect them to hit 50%+ from anywhere on the floor. My point is you really just win 1v1s via shot selection (mostly) and not settling for shots that you aren't like 70%+.


Ace <3 Jibba <3

As long as we agree on the value of Kobe, we're good. <3

I'm curious what it'd be like with a shooter taking it seriously. We've seen some of these guys hit 100% from 3 in practice.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 02 2013 23:53 GMT
#1583
What is the value of Kobe?
Freeeeeeedom
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13536 Posts
October 03 2013 00:29 GMT
#1584
At least one get out of jail free card.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
October 03 2013 00:30 GMT
#1585
On October 03 2013 08:53 cLutZ wrote:
What is the value of Kobe?


goat
starleague forever
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13536 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-03 00:49:13
October 03 2013 00:46 GMT
#1586
On October 03 2013 02:23 Jerubaal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 22:03 Ace wrote:
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/56193798/


-Great. I'm totally convinced that competitive balance does not affect the bottom line for the league or individual clubs. That's what I was really thinking about during the Finals. I was hoping Peter Holt turned a good profit because I'm a big fan of CAT.

-There are two quantities here, money and talent/value, and there is an indistinct relationship between the two. The Knicks and Nets are brought up as counterexamples to the Lakers. What the hell happened to "all else being equal'? Smart poor teams can beat stupid rich teams, what? But when you add smartness, knowledge of how to bend rules to your favor and spend loads of money you get the perfect storm.

-The article said over and over that winning or losing doesn't affect profits, then they say that profit sharing disincentivizes trying to win. Huh. That's going to be true regardless unless you institute some artificial punishment.

-Saying that winning doesn't affect profits may be sort of true in the short term, but that's absolutely not true in the long term. The Yankees and especially the Cowboys are proof of that. Or did Miami just triple in population?

-Individual salaries and the split of profits are negotiated separately. Is there any mention of competitive balance at these CBA negotiations? I fail to see how and to what end a salary cap would suppress overall wages if the percentage remains the same. Sure it keeps individual salaries down because you need a team. Again, max contract is a different argument than salary cap.

-The writer speaks in glowing terms of the European football leagues: A cursory glance at the EPL reveals that players received 67% of the income last year, which is substantially better but doesn't make me think that NBA players are getting ripped off at 50%. Then you look at the fact that most of them are operating at a (sometimes enormous) loss and the league collectively as a debt that equals their yearly income. It would doubtlessly quickly collapse without huge injections of cash, and there are discussions that they will soon adopt several reforms including a salary cap. Meanwhile in Spain, Barcelona and Real Madrid take a whole 43% of the income of La Liga while many of the other teams are scrabbling in the dirt.

-All of this player/financial business aside, the real reason most fans want competitive balance is because they want it to be fair. The NBA is by far the worst league in terms of heaping on advantages for it's golden children and then proclaiming their greatness. We don't need more of that because then it's just fucking WWE, except they're lying to you about it being real. Or maybe the average NBA fan is just that stupid.


The writer's comparison to European football is a poor one. A salary cap would do wonders for competitive balance in the EPL (that is at least giving a chance for other teams to compete for first) but it would be the stupidest decision the FA could make. Why? Because the EPL, unlike the NBA, is subject to intense competition from outside leagues. If stars' salaries are artificially lowered due to a cap they'll just jump ship to La Liga, Serie A, Bundersliga etc where they can make more money. Unless all the major leagues collaborated to institute a UEFA-wide salary cap, it just wouldn't work.

The NBA is fortunate in this regard. European leagues can't compete with the NBA in the area that matters most: money. So the NBA can get away with utilising a salary cap to spread the talent around the league.

And just being in the EPL is an achievement for so many teams. Supporters go to games to watch their team not necessarily win but win enough games to stay in the top league. Supporters have incentive to go watch a team play even though they understand they have zero chance of competing for a title. For these supporters, staying the the top flight is, or making the Champions League, is an achievement in itself. I'll follow Liverpool ardently this year as I do each year but I know we can't win. But there's a chance we can snag a Champion's League spot and that is significant in itself. Not to mention the other competitions like the FA Cup, League Cup, UEFA Cup etc.

But what do we have in the NBA? There's not relegation or inter-continental competitions to compete in. If you remove the cap the Lakers, Knicks etc will crush the smaller clubs with their significant monetary advantage. What incentive is there to go watch teams like the Bobcats and Bucks play? There's no relegation battles, FA Cups etc to support. You're basically watching a team struggle to win 30 games a year and maybe get a glimpse at a Lebron or Kobe a couple of times a year? I'm glad the author of that article is so confident people will go watch anyway, but I don't share his optimism.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 03 2013 00:53 GMT
#1587
On October 03 2013 09:46 RowdierBob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2013 02:23 Jerubaal wrote:
On October 02 2013 22:03 Ace wrote:
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/56193798/


-Great. I'm totally convinced that competitive balance does not affect the bottom line for the league or individual clubs. That's what I was really thinking about during the Finals. I was hoping Peter Holt turned a good profit because I'm a big fan of CAT.

-There are two quantities here, money and talent/value, and there is an indistinct relationship between the two. The Knicks and Nets are brought up as counterexamples to the Lakers. What the hell happened to "all else being equal'? Smart poor teams can beat stupid rich teams, what? But when you add smartness, knowledge of how to bend rules to your favor and spend loads of money you get the perfect storm.

-The article said over and over that winning or losing doesn't affect profits, then they say that profit sharing disincentivizes trying to win. Huh. That's going to be true regardless unless you institute some artificial punishment.

-Saying that winning doesn't affect profits may be sort of true in the short term, but that's absolutely not true in the long term. The Yankees and especially the Cowboys are proof of that. Or did Miami just triple in population?

-Individual salaries and the split of profits are negotiated separately. Is there any mention of competitive balance at these CBA negotiations? I fail to see how and to what end a salary cap would suppress overall wages if the percentage remains the same. Sure it keeps individual salaries down because you need a team. Again, max contract is a different argument than salary cap.

-The writer speaks in glowing terms of the European football leagues: A cursory glance at the EPL reveals that players received 67% of the income last year, which is substantially better but doesn't make me think that NBA players are getting ripped off at 50%. Then you look at the fact that most of them are operating at a (sometimes enormous) loss and the league collectively as a debt that equals their yearly income. It would doubtlessly quickly collapse without huge injections of cash, and there are discussions that they will soon adopt several reforms including a salary cap. Meanwhile in Spain, Barcelona and Real Madrid take a whole 43% of the income of La Liga while many of the other teams are scrabbling in the dirt.

-All of this player/financial business aside, the real reason most fans want competitive balance is because they want it to be fair. The NBA is by far the worst league in terms of heaping on advantages for it's golden children and then proclaiming their greatness. We don't need more of that because then it's just fucking WWE, except they're lying to you about it being real. Or maybe the average NBA fan is just that stupid.


The writer's comparison to European football is a poor one. A salary cap would do wonders for competitive balance in the EPL (that is at least giving a chance for other teams to compete for first) but it would be the stupidest decision the FA could make. Why? Because the EPL, unlike the NBA, is subject to intense competition from outside leagues. If stars' salaries are artificially lowered due to a cap they'll just jump ship to La Liga, Serie A, Bundersliga etc where they can make more money. Unless all the major leagues collaborated to institute a UEFA-wide salary cap, it just wouldn't work.

The NBA is fortunate in this regard. European leagues can't compete with the NBA in the area that matters most: money. So the NBA can get away with utilising a salary cap to spread the talent around the league.

And just being in the EPL is an achievement for so many teams. Supporters go to games to watch their team not necessarily win but win enough games to stay in the top league. Supporters have incentive to go watch a team play even though they understand they have zero chance of competing for a title. For these supporters, staying the the top flight is, or making the Champions League, is an achievement in itself. I'll follow Liverpool ardently this year as I do each year but I know we can't win. But there's a chance we can snag a Champion's League spot and that is significant in itself. Not to mention the other competitions like the FA Cup, League Cup, UEFA Cup etc.

But what do we have in the NBA? There's not relegation or inter-continental competitions to compete in. If you remove the cap the Lakers, Knicks etc will crush the smaller clubs with their significant monetary advantage. What incentive is there to go watch teams like the Bobcats and Bucks play? There's no relegation battles, FA Cups etc to support. You're basically watching a team struggle to win 30 games a year and maybe get a glimpse at a Lebron or Kobe a couple of times a year? I'm glad the author of that article is so confident people will go watch anyway, but I don't share his optimism.


I think some leagues have weird salary rules, because like of how international taxes work though.
Freeeeeeedom
slyboogie
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3423 Posts
October 03 2013 02:55 GMT
#1588
On October 03 2013 02:23 Jerubaal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 02 2013 22:03 Ace wrote:
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/56193798/


-The article said over and over that winning or losing doesn't affect profits, then they say that profit sharing disincentivizes trying to win. Huh. That's going to be true regardless unless you institute some artificial punishment.

-Individual salaries and the split of profits are negotiated separately. Is there any mention of competitive balance at these CBA negotiations? I fail to see how and to what end a salary cap would suppress overall wages if the percentage remains the same. Sure it keeps individual salaries down because you need a team. Again, max contract is a different argument than salary cap.

-All of this player/financial business aside, the real reason most fans want competitive balance is because they want it to be fair. The NBA is by far the worst league in terms of heaping on advantages for it's golden children and then proclaiming their greatness. We don't need more of that because then it's just fucking WWE, except they're lying to you about it being real. Or maybe the average NBA fan is just that stupid.


Revenue sharing totally disincentives winning and causes bad teams. It props up teams that a) shouldn't exist because their market is too small, or there is just no market for them or b) have crappy management. If you buy a McDonald's and manage to run it into the ground because of poor market share or management, you don't get a "revenue sharing" check at the end of the month. You go out of business.

Individual salaries in a salary cap league are negotiated within the sphere of the "split of profits," or revenue split between players and owners. Max contracts don't exist in a world without salary caps - because the teams are free to offer any financial compensation they wish. Just like...in real life.

Why is it fair for bad teams to be competitive? They're bad - that's what it means. And often enough, it's not because they have no money, it's because they chose to give that money to Charlie Villanueva. Or they employed Brian Colangelo to make decisions for them. They shouod get one of the golden star children upon whom they could heap advantages and proclaim his greatness. Then that team might become competitively balanced.
"We dug coal together." Boyd Crowder, Justified
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
October 03 2013 03:39 GMT
#1589
boogie hitting the golden nugget. Fix management if you want to fix competitive balance.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13536 Posts
October 03 2013 03:47 GMT
#1590
That still neglects the huge financial advantages teams like the Lakers have though. The Lakers make $150mill a year from their tv deal alone. It doesn't matter how good your management is if you can't compete financially. Without the cap, success will be largely predicated on financial means. Of course it's not the be all and end all--good management is vital--but it would by far and away become the biggest influencer of success.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13536 Posts
October 03 2013 03:51 GMT
#1591
I'll add to that that all the points you're making are valid and true but I don't agree abolishing the cap is the right plan. You won't fix badly managed teams by getting rid of it.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
Ace
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States16096 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-03 05:30:00
October 03 2013 05:28 GMT
#1592
you ever seen the Knicks?

eta: I'd rather players get a bigger part of the BRI again than get rid of the cap.
Math me up, scumboi. - Acrofales
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
October 03 2013 05:33 GMT
#1593
On October 03 2013 11:55 slyboogie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 03 2013 02:23 Jerubaal wrote:
On October 02 2013 22:03 Ace wrote:
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/56193798/


-The article said over and over that winning or losing doesn't affect profits, then they say that profit sharing disincentivizes trying to win. Huh. That's going to be true regardless unless you institute some artificial punishment.

-Individual salaries and the split of profits are negotiated separately. Is there any mention of competitive balance at these CBA negotiations? I fail to see how and to what end a salary cap would suppress overall wages if the percentage remains the same. Sure it keeps individual salaries down because you need a team. Again, max contract is a different argument than salary cap.

-All of this player/financial business aside, the real reason most fans want competitive balance is because they want it to be fair. The NBA is by far the worst league in terms of heaping on advantages for it's golden children and then proclaiming their greatness. We don't need more of that because then it's just fucking WWE, except they're lying to you about it being real. Or maybe the average NBA fan is just that stupid.


Revenue sharing totally disincentives winning and causes bad teams. It props up teams that a) shouldn't exist because their market is too small, or there is just no market for them or b) have crappy management. If you buy a McDonald's and manage to run it into the ground because of poor market share or management, you don't get a "revenue sharing" check at the end of the month. You go out of business.

Individual salaries in a salary cap league are negotiated within the sphere of the "split of profits," or revenue split between players and owners. Max contracts don't exist in a world without salary caps - because the teams are free to offer any financial compensation they wish. Just like...in real life.

Why is it fair for bad teams to be competitive? They're bad - that's what it means. And often enough, it's not because they have no money, it's because they chose to give that money to Charlie Villanueva. Or they employed Brian Colangelo to make decisions for them. They shouod get one of the golden star children upon whom they could heap advantages and proclaim his greatness. Then that team might become competitively balanced.


On October 03 2013 12:39 Ace wrote:
boogie hitting the golden nugget. Fix management if you want to fix competitive balance.


I can't tell you how much my brain hurts from trying to unravel all the points to make to the article and to you guyses.

My original problem with the article's assertion that revenue sharing disincentivizes winning is that what is described as a gross evil in one system is simply the price of doing business in the other. He says there's no correlation between being competitive and profits (at least not for the league as a whole): The difference is that he decries the non competitive teams in a capped league while patting the non competitive teams in un capped leagues on the back for being good punching bags. Moreover, I don't think any NBA team is more or less permanently operating at a loss and every team has had periods where they are competitive. So to say that there are teams that are somehow unworthy of existing at any particular moment is ignoring the bigger picture.

And we keep coming back to this disconnect between revenue and success. Success can make you boatloads of money, but there are going to be gross imbalances. It doesn't matter how well or poorly the Lakers and T-Wolves do, the Lakers will make more money, and unless we figure out a system where the Lakers have to pay the Spurs and OKC every year, that isn't going to change.

In a capped system I CAN blame the management. If an NFL team is doing poorly I can 100% blame the GM. If an NBA team is doing poorly, I can place a good amount of blame on them. You should be able to assemble a decent team, although getting to an elite level is going to require 2 of luck, skill and money. In MLB, you can make do, but at some point you just have to throw your hands up. Even genius organizations like the A's and Rays can only string so many years of success together, whereas the Red Sox just reload.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
RowdierBob
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
Australia13536 Posts
October 03 2013 05:35 GMT
#1594
I know there are bad owners and some of the structural issues encourage them to run a bad team because it's still profitable for them. But abolishing the cap is not the answer to remedy bad owners.

You could just as easily counter that with a 'ever seen the Lakers'?

Players want two things: money and success. If the Tim Duncans of the NBA have a choice between two very well run organisations in the Lakers and the Spurs but the Lakers can offer him $20 million more, where is he going to go?

What's to stop the Lakers or even the Knicks just buying a team of CP3, Kobe, Durant, Griffin and Dwight? That's hyperbole as it probably wouldn't be that extreme but you'd have something very similar to the EPL, IMO. There'd be about 6 or so stacked teams fighting it out each year and a bunch of no-hopers who have zero prospect of ever hoping to compete.

The Knicks were horrible at managing and building the roster in the confines of a cap because their management was inept. Without a cap their decision making actually becomes easier. All they have to decide is how much $$ is will take to sign them.
"Terrans are pretty much space-Australians" - H
VayneAuthority
Profile Joined October 2012
United States8983 Posts
October 03 2013 05:36 GMT
#1595
"I'm a guy where whoever's on the court I'm going to go at them," Rose said. "If it's my teammates, it could be my mom on the court, she's going to get killed. I could care less who [is out there]. For me, I'm just trying to build that mentality where I don't care who's out there, I'm going to play the same way." - Derrick Rose

huerpadurpadurp
I come in for the scraps
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
October 03 2013 05:43 GMT
#1596
On October 03 2013 14:36 VayneAuthority wrote:
"I'm a guy where whoever's on the court I'm going to go at them," Rose said. "If it's my teammates, it could be my mom on the court, she's going to get killed. I could care less who [is out there]. For me, I'm just trying to build that mentality where I don't care who's out there, I'm going to play the same way." - Derrick Rose

huerpadurpadurp


Trust me. As a Bulls fan, I wish Drose was 6'8" 250
Freeeeeeedom
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
October 03 2013 13:50 GMT
#1597
Hmm... so League pass has every game archived now. Still the other restrictions, but I don't really have a choice if I want to watch Pistons games.

Then the question becomes 5 teams or all 30.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
karazax
Profile Joined May 2010
United States3737 Posts
October 03 2013 19:45 GMT
#1598
Rockets scrimage footage from practice today:

Kazeyonoma
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2912 Posts
October 03 2013 20:06 GMT
#1599
where's JLin? ?!?!?! blasphemy
I now have autographs of both BoxeR and NaDa. I can die happy. Lim Yo Hwan and Lee Yun Yeol FIGHTING forever!
karazax
Profile Joined May 2010
United States3737 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-03 20:30:20
October 03 2013 20:29 GMT
#1600
He's in the video, he scored a left handed layup on a drive near the end.
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2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
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