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On June 20 2013 13:30 scaban84 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:12 Ace wrote:On June 20 2013 13:04 scaban84 wrote:On June 20 2013 12:36 Jibba wrote:On June 20 2013 12:24 scaban84 wrote:On June 20 2013 12:10 cLutZ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:56 Ace wrote:
Over 500. And if you think that Chicago roster without Rose is better than Miami without Lebron you clearly missed the entire season. They were just a bit behind Miami's level with Rose struggling to lift the offense to barely average levels. Without him AND Boozer they would get destroyed by even the Bucs. I would postulate that just on the Average PPG between the 2 if you subtracted both from each team during the playoffs they would have been closer. That ignores the ridiculous disparity between the two as playmakers and on defense. The Heat outscored the bulls by like 13 ppg, Imo LBJ is 13 ppg better than Boozer, for a team. Plus, the Bulls don't get the el-cheapo veterans that the Heat do. This past season for the Bulls is almost meaningless due to all the injuries. Even Heinrich and Deng were out a lot towards the end of the season. Full strength Bulls is almost as good Heat that we know for a fact. Just look at the records since Lebron joined Miami. But Miami without Lebron is barely over +.500. That's ridiculous. Wade + Bosh and the rest of that team is still a very good team in the East. Miami prides itself on being a team of "roleplayers" they built the entire team around Lebron. For the most part they have brought in a bunch of shooters. Without Lebron's dominance and no real bigs they don't stand a chance, they would have to change their entire lineup without Lebron because they drive and kick offense won't be there. Every stat out there shows you how terrible and inefficient Miami is when Lebron sits down. which stats? Imagine Lebron never shows up to Miami and they instead sign Bosh and have enough cap space to sign any other All Star outside of Lebron. Have you looked at Miami's team stats BEFORE Lebron showed up? They would absolutely be a contender without him because even now the team is stacked. It is impossible for a team this good to just collapse to "terrible and inefficient" after the 3 year run they just had. Even with Lebron on the bench Wade and Bosh regularly slaughtered other teams. That was the entire point of them being a matchup problem for anyone - they always had one of those guys on the court and no one could ever get a big enough gap to stop them once 2 of the 3 was subbed back in. 3 Finals in 3 years and multiple killings of top playoff teams and you think this is all held together by LeBron? Even seeing him fail doing what you say he is in Cleveland? Wade and Bosh do not slaughter teams lol. They may look so when they are playing against opposing team's bench after Lebron has slaughtered the starting lineup. Wade struggles without Lebron. Check the efficiency stats between Lebron-Wade, Lebron+Wade, and Wade-Lebron. For example in the Finals Wade has been terrible. http://www.businessinsider.com/dwyane-wade-nba-finals-stats-2013-6
No shit Wade has been largely bad in the Finals. Now post the stats you claim exist that Miami would be terrible and lost without Lebron all year. If you want, go to NBA.com's Stats database and look at Wade's on court numbers without Lebron this year. Do the same for Bosh. Back up what you just said because a team with this high of an SRS has never happened in NBA history as a 1 man show. Not even Lebron's Cavs fit the description.
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On June 20 2013 13:16 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:13 Jibba wrote:On June 20 2013 13:07 Ace wrote:
Yes, because like it or not losing him means somebody has to play defense at Power Forward. It could be Taj Gibson, but if he's playing defense for that many minutes Chicago is going to have lots of fatigue issues. Lebron could play there, but they already have a hole at the other wing spot, which would again open one up at the small forward spot. Unless Derrick Rose somehow starts guarding SGs and they bring in another floor spacing PG Chicago will have problems.
Miami destroys teams because they can afford to move Wade or Lebron to any other player on the floor defensively and not get annihilated. Chicago wouldn't be doing that. When they go up against say...a Wade/Bosh offense how are they going to survive since Lebron can't stop either one of those guys? Rose would be drawing dead. I think it's too big of a hypothetical. If they have Lebron instead of Boozer, then they don't need Deng and they probably would've made sure to retain Asik. I think it's too far gone to really predict what would happen. The bulls number one weakness since 2011 had been having only one ball handler and one on ball scorer. Maybe I went over board saying minus Rose and booze. But James makes that team ridiculous. I'm assuming they keep Asik too. I'm looking at this as if we are doing Summer 2010 all over again. Asik/Noah/Lebron/Deng/Rose/Gibson as the core. No Boozer. There are 2 clear holes here and something I haven't even mentioned because I'm waiting for the pro Rose/Lebron people to analyze how that Chicago offense worked, and exactly what happened with Rose that year. I don't think people realize how historically ridiculous Miami's offense is with Lebron+Wade and the problems that occur if you sub Rose in for Wade.
Edit: Phone posting.
Maybe its a small exaggeration of the Non-Rose/Boozer squad being better than the Non-Lebron squad. But the Bulls team has only has 1 flaw since and including 2011, that being that Rose had to carry too much of the ballhandling load + too much of the on ball scoring load. Lebron makes those problems...nonexistant.
The Bulls would then have a top 1 defense in the league...probably by a multiple point margin. The offense with that core has a slightly lower ceiling than the Wade/Bosh core, but seeing as that ceiling has not been realized in 3 playoff runs...
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United States22883 Posts
I have no idea. Wade got his money in '08 and the Pistons had already lost Ben Wallace the year before due to money. Without Ben, I don't think they'd beat the '07 Spurs or Celtics since Sheed was already declining.
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@scaban: Wade is #2 at +/- for Miami at 8.3 to Lebron's 9.5 If we go by 82games.com simple rating James is at a whopping +18.6 to Wade's 12.2 and no one is even close on the team. The 1 man show Clippers have Chris Paul at 10.1, Durant at 15.9 and Westbrook at 8.1, and Melo at 9.3 for New York. Duncan is 10.6 and Parker 9.4
So the only guy in the league with a higher rating than Wade on a marquee contender is Durant. Somehow, even with Wade playing a reduced role this year he still grades out as elite among the NBA's elite players and yet Miami would fall apart without Lebron. Even though rating and normal +/- show Wade is clearly lifting this Miami team, just not as heavy as the best player in the league. If you take Lebron off then Wade and even Bosh would have to drop heavily for them to flounder. Based on this year and their careers you'd have to be on drugs to think that would happen. Now I'll wait for the Wade/Lebron/Bosh on-off numbers from you to back up the point you made.
@Jibba: Yea ok I forgot what year it was he left and the decline started. So scratch 07, I guess a 3 peat is doable from 04-06.
Maybe its a small exaggeration of the Non-Rose/Boozer squad being better than the Non-Lebron squad. But the Bulls team has only has 1 flaw since and including 2011, that being that Rose had to carry too much of the ballhandling load + too much of the on ball scoring load. Lebron makes those problems...nonexistant.
The Bulls would then have a top 1 defense in the league...probably by a multiple point margin. The offense with that core has a slightly lower ceiling than the Wade/Bosh core, but seeing as that ceiling has not been realized in 3 playoff runs...
He does, if you have Boozer! But without him the minutes at Power Forward has to go somewhere and they still have to defend guards. Even with the best defense in the league they'd have to carve out enough offense to compete. How many shooters, elite off ball cutters, or post up guys is Chicago getting? Lebron will fix a lot of that, but not to a degree that they automatically just steam roll everyone. Remember, Miami works because even Lebron and Wade need Bosh to occupy court real estate. Who is doing that in a LeBron-Rose lineup and where? Gibson nor Noah can, which means if you keep Deng Lebron has to play PF/front court/post basketball. That isn't happening Year 1 for Lebron/Rose.
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United States4471 Posts
I don't even know what hypothetical rosters Ace and Clutz are debating. Is this 2011 CHI - Booz + Lebron vs. 2011 Heat roster?
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On June 20 2013 13:52 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
I don't even know what hypothetical rosters Ace and Clutz are debating. Is this 2011 CHI - Booz + Lebron vs. 2011 Heat roster?
2011-13: Chi + Lebron - Boozer vs. Miami (actual result) 2011-13
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United States22883 Posts
On June 20 2013 13:40 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:16 Ace wrote:On June 20 2013 13:13 Jibba wrote:On June 20 2013 13:07 Ace wrote:
Yes, because like it or not losing him means somebody has to play defense at Power Forward. It could be Taj Gibson, but if he's playing defense for that many minutes Chicago is going to have lots of fatigue issues. Lebron could play there, but they already have a hole at the other wing spot, which would again open one up at the small forward spot. Unless Derrick Rose somehow starts guarding SGs and they bring in another floor spacing PG Chicago will have problems.
Miami destroys teams because they can afford to move Wade or Lebron to any other player on the floor defensively and not get annihilated. Chicago wouldn't be doing that. When they go up against say...a Wade/Bosh offense how are they going to survive since Lebron can't stop either one of those guys? Rose would be drawing dead. I think it's too big of a hypothetical. If they have Lebron instead of Boozer, then they don't need Deng and they probably would've made sure to retain Asik. I think it's too far gone to really predict what would happen. The bulls number one weakness since 2011 had been having only one ball handler and one on ball scorer. Maybe I went over board saying minus Rose and booze. But James makes that team ridiculous. I'm assuming they keep Asik too. I'm looking at this as if we are doing Summer 2010 all over again. Asik/Noah/Lebron/Deng/Rose/Gibson as the core. No Boozer. There are 2 clear holes here and something I haven't even mentioned because I'm waiting for the pro Rose/Lebron people to analyze how that Chicago offense worked, and exactly what happened with Rose that year. I don't think people realize how historically ridiculous Miami's offense is with Lebron+Wade and the problems that occur if you sub Rose in for Wade. Maybe its a small exaggeration of the Non-Rose/Boozer squad being better than the Non-Lebron squad. But the Bulls team has only has 1 flaw since and including 2011, that being that Rose had to carry too much of the ballhandling load + too much of the on ball scoring load. Lebron makes those problems...nonexistant. The Bulls would then have a top 1 defense in the league...probably by a multiple point margin. The offense with that core has a slightly lower ceiling than the Wade/Bosh core, but seeing as that ceiling has not been realized in 3 playoff runs...
I think that flaw is a smaller part of a much greater flaw in their offense. As Ace said, either Lebron or Rose would need to become fundamentally different players since they both have similar roles right now. One of them would have to become great at moving without the ball, and I'm not sure either one of them is that good in that area right now. Sure, Rose and Lebron would have more energy, but they'd still have a lot of difficult shots, especially with Noah and Gibson/Asik on the floor. I don't think the problem is as simple as Rose having too much responsibility.
The defense would have been incredible though.
TBH, I think you can make an argument that Rose + Wade is better than Rose + Lebron.
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First it was Chicago without Boozer/Rose versus Miami without Lebron. Who is better?
Now it's evolved into how would Chicago work with Lebron/Rose - Boozer starting in 2010.
@Jibba: I wouldn't make that argument but go ahead and try 
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On June 20 2013 13:59 Ace wrote:First it was Chicago without Boozer/Rose versus Miami without Lebron. Who is better? Now it's evolved into how would Chicago work with Lebron/Rose - Boozer starting in 2010. @Jibba: I wouldn't make that argument but go ahead and try
Fear not, I admitted my fanboyism after researching. I still, however, think Chicago with Lebron (no booze) > Current Miami. In 2011 to today.
Now, Lebron's QOL is obviously better in Miami...Chicago fucking sucks...and I live here.
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On June 20 2013 14:04 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:59 Ace wrote:First it was Chicago without Boozer/Rose versus Miami without Lebron. Who is better? Now it's evolved into how would Chicago work with Lebron/Rose - Boozer starting in 2010. @Jibba: I wouldn't make that argument but go ahead and try Fear not, I admitted my fanboyism after researching. I still, however, think Chicago with Lebron (no booze) > Current Miami. In 2011 to today. Now, Lebron's QOL is obviously better in Miami...Chicago fucking sucks...and I live here.
I am highly against this statement. Lebron's game works better when he has 3 point shooters to dish out to.
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United States22883 Posts
Well, Wade would operate with Rose as he does now with Lebron, and you get full-time Deng. Unless you're putting Deng at SG with Lebron at SF.
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United States4471 Posts
Rose, Deng, Lebron and Noah would be pretty terrible for floor spacing on offense, even if you stuck someone like Ray Allen in at SG. However, that'd be a ridiculous defensive frontcourt. I'd still take the current Heat roster though because of how well it's constructed around the big 3.
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It does assume a lot about how the Bulls build their roster assuming they get Lebron though. They mightve traded one or more of those players to get better pieces. It's an interesting hypothetical though.
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switch out noah for gasol or something and then we're talking...even though bosh hasn't been that consistent the only reason he works as a big man on that team is because he has some semblance of an outside shot, Noah and Deng would pretty much just be glorified defensive players with that lineup that stifle their own offense. It honestly wouldn't be that impressive
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Deng works as a spotup shooter, I believe he was close to or cracked 40% from 3. Noah can pass from the post and has that hilarious midrange tornado but otherwise yeah he's just there for D.
It'd be an interesting team though, they wouldn't score much but would make sure you didn't either.
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If lebron didnt join miami then pat riley would have performed seppuku, anf we would have no idea what the teams would look like now !
Plus youd take away their jommy g buckets, no one in chicaho wants that
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Got a chance to hear Colin interview David Stern in the morning today, pretty good. I always like hearing him just because he is so sharp and if poked will usually poke back at the interviewer and usually gets the best of it. Colin didn't really poke though..
The best thing he said though is how "NBA referees are the most evaluated position in any corporation or business in the world". So funny b/c it might just be true.
edit: Right after 9am (12est) if interested in hearing (I know because I was running late)
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On June 20 2013 04:11 Elurie wrote:Not really a Spurs fan, but more of a Heats anti-fan.... I just wish the Spurs would foul someone, anyone, in the final moments before Bosh passed the ball to Allen.  Still love Allen, even though if he's playing for that team now.
so in other words you're another bandwagon heat hater. how original  at least you admit it.
On June 20 2013 04:13 ketomai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 02:33 HeavenS wrote:
oh and another thing, why did they review Allen's shot if the spurs did'nt even have a timeout? It was a legit shot, but still, popovich asked for review and he got it, on what grounds? The review definitely helped the Heat. They got to set their defense.
i don't care who it helped, i care that it happened at all.
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isnt there something in the cba about players influencing trades and signings re: chris paul
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On June 21 2013 05:54 a176 wrote:
isnt there something in the cba about players influencing trades and signings re: chris paul
I dont know, but when do these player-as-GM situations turn out well?
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EPT
