EPTThis was one of those games where Miami probably wins that 1/10 times in said situation. Shit just happens sometimes and it went against the Spurs. Duncan could have easily been in the game and given up an open three on a missed rotation. Then people would be criticising Pop for keeping him in the game. I'm gonna back the judgement of a four-time NBA winning coach on this one.
2013 NBA Finals - Page 90
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RowdierBob
Australia12800 Posts
This was one of those games where Miami probably wins that 1/10 times in said situation. Shit just happens sometimes and it went against the Spurs. Duncan could have easily been in the game and given up an open three on a missed rotation. Then people would be criticising Pop for keeping him in the game. I'm gonna back the judgement of a four-time NBA winning coach on this one. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19343 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On June 20 2013 09:01 RowdierBob wrote: Hmmm, I guess it's harder to quantify for the Finals given LeBron has played so many minutes. Do you have access to the stats with Wade on and LBJ off? No, I'd have to go through and do it by hand myself, but Sherwood Strauss brought it up yesterday. Part of it is media nonsense, and the other part Lebron stans/trolls trying to find a way to prop him up and detract from Wade. Clearly Wade hurts Miami's spacing, but he's always killed teams (including SA in this very playoffs) for leaving him alone. Also people keep using raw plus/minus like Zach Lowe and not using RAPM since as usual they don't understand what the numbers actually mean. Wade's -52 is largely due to a 2 game sample: Game 6 and Game 2. But not one of them point out what happened in Game 5 - Miami absolutely destroyed San Antonio with Wade on the court, and minute he sat down they got blown out by 20 points. He comes back and they get it down to single digits - why doesn't Lebron's plus/minus show this disparity? Because he was on the court for majority of the time during one of those runs - right before Wade sat and it was 75-76. If you use RAPM you could get closer to the true value of the actual impact, but that's lost on the people in this thread and the NBA writers that don't know about the numbers that they keep putting out there. Games 4 and 5 Wade was Miami's best player and all of a sudden were back to a spacing narrative. This isn't coincidental. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
kg+rivers trade probably going to happen. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On June 20 2013 08:14 RowdierBob wrote: Ruh roh: http://au.businessinsider.com/dwyane-wade-nba-finals-stats-2013-6 Its just the coming to fruition of all the problems people talked about when the Heat got together. Just because Lebron is a generational talent and has papered over the problems of this "team" does not make them untrue. It should be obvious to anyone by now that if he had signed with the Bulls using their "Boozer money" he would already have 3 titles wrapped up (even with the Rose injury), or even if he had gone to Indiana using their absurd cap space he would be at 2 minimum by now. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
@ETA: Also Bob, this is just a small rant on the nonsense I see these guys say all the time, because usage is a huge reason why Miami can't afford to trade any of their Big 3 without getting monster returns. 2 weeks ago Mike Miller couldn't play, and he's on fire right now. But his usage is different from Wade because he can't play 40 minutes. If he did Miami would get blown out - and then these same skulls would say it's Miami's fault for not having another star player on the court to reduce Lebron's workload  This is also the reason I don't blame Pop for the Manu substitutions because he has nothing else. Parker has to rest sometime - especially when he himself is getting killed on both sides of the ball. Morons would say look at Danny Green's offensive rating and plus-minus! Except Danny Green's usage doesn't require him to run the fucking offense. So Pop can't afford to give him minutes in that role. The only other guy left is Manu. Miami kills him, tough shit. It happens. But this kind of basketball thinking is lost on a lot of people that don't understand context and numbers. I'm seeing tons of criticism against both guys, Lebron's critics disappear since they won the game, and no one points out how Parker cost San Antonio this game and even fucked up in other games this series. Only Wade's plus/minus is the defining story despite Miami winning largely because of his defense and clutch rebound. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12800 Posts
On June 20 2013 09:16 a176 wrote: chris paul forcing the issue in la. kg+rivers trade probably going to happen. Supposedly it has gone from Bled + DJ to DJ + two first rounders. If the Clips only have to give up DJ and two first rounders (irrelevant to them if they're wanting to contend) then it's a good deal for them. They can rid themselves of the stupid contract DJ is on and improve at the C with Garnett. Rivers coaching will take them up a notch also. I think it's something of a win for Boston too. If Garnett and Doc do go then the tank job is definitely on for them. Pierce will almost certainly be flipped for a pick or young prospect and they will either sit Rondo for the year or flip him somewhere also. DJ and Jeff Green will get 50 shots a game between them and the Celts will win like 20 games to get them in prime position for Wiggins. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12800 Posts
On June 20 2013 09:23 Ace wrote: Go in depth and explain clutz, because I think you're wrong but I want to see where your thinking lies. It would have been very hard for Lebron-Rose to work but I'm interested. @ETA: Also Bob, this is just a small rant on the nonsense I see these guys say all the time, because usage is a huge reason why Miami can't afford to trade any of their Big 3 without getting monster returns. 2 weeks ago Mike Miller couldn't play, and he's on fire right now. But his usage is different from Wade because he can't play 40 minutes. If he did Miami would get blown out - and then these same skulls would say it's Miami's fault for not having another star player on the court to reduce Lebron's workload This is also the reason I don't blame Pop for the Manu substitutions because he has nothing else. Parker has to rest sometime - especially when he himself is getting killed on both sides of the ball. Morons would say look at Danny Green's offensive rating and plus-minus! Except Danny Green's usage doesn't require him to run the fucking offense. So Pop can't afford to give him minutes in that role. The only other guy left is Manu. Miami kills him, tough shit. It happens. But this kind of basketball thinking is lost on a lot of people that don't understand context and numbers. I'm seeing tons of criticism against both guys, Lebron's critics disappear since they won the game, and no one points out how Parker cost San Antonio this game and even fucked up in other games this series. Only Wade's plus/minus is the defining story despite Miami winning largely because of his defense and clutch rebound. I certainly agree with the last para. I've already stated my thoughts on the ridiculous notion of Green being FMVP. He has played his part as a role player exceptionally well but banging down threes at an ungodly rate doesn't make you the most valuable player on the court. Parker, like Wade, is clearly injured which is hurting his impact on the game. Manu was awful that game but what other option was there? I think Pop maybe whiffed by not calling a TO on that play and letting Manu attack. But then again, what were his other options? Parker was gassed and LeBron was defending him like a boss. Does he get much of a better shot off by calling a TO and letting Miami lock down their D in the half court coming out of the TO? Would it have created a better shot? Who knows. Everyone's a critic after the fact without considering the alternate options. These guys are top of the pops (no pun!) when it comes to coaching. It's not like they're just throwing mud and hoping it sticks--I think folk sometimes don't analyse the thought that goes into certain situations and like to play armchair critic from hindsight land far too much. It doesn't, and shouldn't, stop us all from having an opinion but we all get a bit too emotional sometimes without stopping to think about why certain things happen. I do the same thing when it comes to the Dubs and Mark motherfucking Jackson. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On June 20 2013 09:23 Ace wrote: Go in depth and explain clutz, because I think you're wrong but I want to see where your thinking lies. It would have been very hard for Lebron-Rose to work but I'm interested. @ETA: Also Bob, this is just a small rant on the nonsense I see these guys say all the time, because usage is a huge reason why Miami can't afford to trade any of their Big 3 without getting monster returns. 2 weeks ago Mike Miller couldn't play, and he's on fire right now. But his usage is different from Wade because he can't play 40 minutes. If he did Miami would get blown out - and then these same skulls would say it's Miami's fault for not having another star player on the court to reduce Lebron's workload This is also the reason I don't blame Pop for the Manu substitutions because he has nothing else. Parker has to rest sometime - especially when he himself is getting killed on both sides of the ball. Morons would say look at Danny Green's offensive rating and plus-minus! Except Danny Green's usage doesn't require him to run the fucking offense. So Pop can't afford to give him minutes in that role. The only other guy left is Manu. Miami kills him, tough shit. It happens. But this kind of basketball thinking is lost on a lot of people that don't understand context and numbers. I'm seeing tons of criticism against both guys, Lebron's critics disappear since they won the game, and no one points out how Parker cost San Antonio this game and even fucked up in other games this series. Only Wade's plus/minus is the defining story despite Miami winning largely because of his defense and clutch rebound. Because the Bulls roster minus Rose and Boozer is better than the Heat roster minus Lebron. Because Rose + Lebron is the same thing as Wade + Lebron, except Rose is younger and might actually learn how to work with another great player. Because, man, Noah. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia12800 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
I wanted to thumbs up your entire post Bob but this is probably the best phrase that explains why I think about NBA teams the way I do, especially when betting money. I think Pop maybe whiffed by not calling a TO on that play and letting Manu attack. But then again, what were his other options? | ||
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Holcan
Canada2593 Posts
Seriously though, I'm a believer that you need your best mid range shooter in the game when trying to score on the last possession, probably from all my love for paul pierce and disdain for Kobe that I think that though | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On June 20 2013 08:42 Scarecrow wrote: Wade -52 in the finals, not much of an MVP candidate. Entirely meaningless in this context. If Kawhi Leonard hits his FT, the entire story would be about how much Lebron sucks in the clutch (despite being awesome in the 4th) because of those two turnovers at the end. Leonard misses a FT and now it's Wade's turn. His +/- isn't great but it doesn't take into account the level of players he's against. Lebron stays in with the bench and he goes against the Spurs' weaker lineup. Wade is used to help get the team going against the Spurs' best lineup, usually with Lebron as well. You could fairly say Lebron provides a lot more value because he's averaging like 6+ more minutes a game than Wade, but you can visibly see the impact Wade has when he's out there. It's surprising that so few people are talking about his activity last night. He helped make sure the Heat got those two rebounds at the end. He outfought Leonard for them. Speaking to reporters before practicing at the American Airlines Arena on Wednesday, Chris Bosh had a message to those who weren’t willing to stick around and support their team until the final buzzer had sounded. “For all those guys who left, don’t come back for Game 7,” he said.  | ||
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itkovian
United States1763 Posts
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Ubiquitousdichotomy
247 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On June 20 2013 09:50 Ace wrote: ok clutz. Some real analysis please. The Heat roster is clearly better w/o Lebron than Chicago without Rose and Boozer. Stop trolling and put some actual thought into your answer. I wanted to thumbs up your entire post Bob but this is probably the best phrase that explains why I think about NBA teams the way I do, especially when betting money. What games were you watching this year? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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jeeeeohn
United States1343 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On June 20 2013 11:56 Ace wrote: Over 500. And if you think that Chicago roster without Rose is better than Miami without Lebron you clearly missed the entire season. They were just a bit behind Miami's level with Rose struggling to lift the offense to barely average levels. Without him AND Boozer they would get destroyed by even the Bucs. I would postulate that just on the Average PPG between the 2 if you subtracted both from each team during the playoffs they would have been closer. That ignores the ridiculous disparity between the two as playmakers and on defense. The Heat outscored the bulls by like 13 ppg, Imo LBJ is 13 ppg better than Boozer, for a team. Plus, the Bulls don't get the el-cheapo veterans that the Heat do. | ||
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scaban84
United States1080 Posts
On June 20 2013 12:10 cLutZ wrote: I would postulate that just on the Average PPG between the 2 if you subtracted both from each team during the playoffs they would have been closer. That ignores the ridiculous disparity between the two as playmakers and on defense. The Heat outscored the bulls by like 13 ppg, Imo LBJ is 13 ppg better than Boozer, for a team. Plus, the Bulls don't get the el-cheapo veterans that the Heat do. This past season for the Bulls is almost meaningless due to all the injuries. Even Heinrich and Deng were out a lot towards the end of the season. Full strength Bulls is almost as good Heat that we know for a fact. Just look at the records since Lebron joined Miami. But Miami without Lebron is barely over +.500. | ||
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