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United States22883 Posts
On June 20 2013 12:24 scaban84 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 12:10 cLutZ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:56 Ace wrote:
Over 500. And if you think that Chicago roster without Rose is better than Miami without Lebron you clearly missed the entire season. They were just a bit behind Miami's level with Rose struggling to lift the offense to barely average levels. Without him AND Boozer they would get destroyed by even the Bucs. I would postulate that just on the Average PPG between the 2 if you subtracted both from each team during the playoffs they would have been closer. That ignores the ridiculous disparity between the two as playmakers and on defense. The Heat outscored the bulls by like 13 ppg, Imo LBJ is 13 ppg better than Boozer, for a team. Plus, the Bulls don't get the el-cheapo veterans that the Heat do. This past season for the Bulls is almost meaningless due to all the injuries. Even Heinrich and Deng were out a lot towards the end of the season. Full strength Bulls is almost as good Heat that we know for a fact. Just look at the records since Lebron joined Miami. But Miami without Lebron is barely over +.500.
That's ridiculous. Wade + Bosh and the rest of that team is still a very good team in the East.
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^I agree, but I still think the Bulls +Lebron -Booz are still better.
Tiny bit biased though, just a tiny bit.
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I'd almost wager they'd still be #1. Maybe not as good as Indy but I'd take a Bosh/Wade team over the Knicks.
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United States22883 Posts
I have no clue. I thought Lebron should've gone to CHI from the beginning, but he's improved in Miami.
I'm not sure what happens to Deng or if CHI has the shooters or style to take advantage of him the way Miami does. They'd certainly be nasty on defense. Then again, the team would've been constructed differently if he were there. Really not sure, but I do think Miami is more than the sum of its parts now.
I guess he'd be more Jordan than Magic?
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On June 20 2013 12:10 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 11:56 Ace wrote:
Over 500. And if you think that Chicago roster without Rose is better than Miami without Lebron you clearly missed the entire season. They were just a bit behind Miami's level with Rose struggling to lift the offense to barely average levels. Without him AND Boozer they would get destroyed by even the Bucs. I would postulate that just on the Average PPG between the 2 if you subtracted both from each team during the playoffs they would have been closer. That ignores the ridiculous disparity between the two as playmakers and on defense. The Heat outscored the bulls by like 13 ppg, Imo LBJ is 13 ppg better than Boozer, for a team. Plus, the Bulls don't get the el-cheapo veterans that the Heat do.
If you mean THIS year and with Chicago still having Boozer? Sure. Miami is going to obviously miss Lebron and the games should be closer. If you mean any year without Rose and Boozer then no - Chicago is damn close to a lottery team because someone has to fill in those minutes.
And also this is a problem - you are assuming basketball is linear by saying subtract Lebron's ppg and thus it will replace Boozer's ppg. We know from even cursory observation that it doesn't work like that. Even accounting for Lebron's defense and playmaking it still doesn't replace Boozer's defense on PFs which matters. Nor his rebounding or effect on Team rebounding. Add Lebron in and Rose has to lose something. Since first year Rose isn't even close to sophmore year Wade in terms of efficiency or impact how the hell is that going to work? Who is defending the perimeter with James? How does the half court offense even function when what you saw was Year 1 of Rose ascending to offensive stardom? It doesn't happen with James there. You don't even get court spacing since Rose isn't a 3 pt threat like Wade either, so you have to let Rose develop his game further.
I think you're literally just saying, add this guy, and this guy, and since they are stars it'll work! Except history has shown us numerous times it isn't that simple unless you have ultra efficient solo stars teaming up. With Lebron and Wade, it was obvious they would both dominate because they had years of carrying subpar teams and destroying league leading defenses in the half court. We never got to see that with Rose. So to say it would work with so much confidence and so little thinking about their roles is surprising to me.
ETA: By first year Rose I mean 2011 Rose when he won the MVP since that would be Year 1 of Lebron/Rose.
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Did you just use Boozer and defence in the same sentence?
For shame.
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On June 20 2013 12:36 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 12:24 scaban84 wrote:On June 20 2013 12:10 cLutZ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:56 Ace wrote:
Over 500. And if you think that Chicago roster without Rose is better than Miami without Lebron you clearly missed the entire season. They were just a bit behind Miami's level with Rose struggling to lift the offense to barely average levels. Without him AND Boozer they would get destroyed by even the Bucs. I would postulate that just on the Average PPG between the 2 if you subtracted both from each team during the playoffs they would have been closer. That ignores the ridiculous disparity between the two as playmakers and on defense. The Heat outscored the bulls by like 13 ppg, Imo LBJ is 13 ppg better than Boozer, for a team. Plus, the Bulls don't get the el-cheapo veterans that the Heat do. This past season for the Bulls is almost meaningless due to all the injuries. Even Heinrich and Deng were out a lot towards the end of the season. Full strength Bulls is almost as good Heat that we know for a fact. Just look at the records since Lebron joined Miami. But Miami without Lebron is barely over +.500. That's ridiculous. Wade + Bosh and the rest of that team is still a very good team in the East.
Miami prides itself on being a team of "roleplayers" they built the entire team around Lebron. For the most part they have brought in a bunch of shooters. Without Lebron's dominance and no real bigs they don't stand a chance, they would have to change their entire lineup without Lebron because they drive and kick offense won't be there. Every stat out there shows you how terrible and inefficient Miami is when Lebron sits down.
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Yes, because like it or not losing him means somebody has to play defense at Power Forward. It could be Taj Gibson, but if he's playing defense for that many minutes Chicago is going to have lots of fatigue issues. Lebron could play there, but they already have a hole at the other wing spot, which would again open one up at the small forward spot. Unless Derrick Rose somehow starts guarding SGs and they bring in another floor spacing PG Chicago will have problems.
Miami destroys teams because they can afford to move Wade or Lebron to any other player on the floor defensively and not get annihilated. Chicago wouldn't be doing that. When they go up against say...a Wade/Bosh offense how are they going to survive since Lebron can't stop either one of those guys? Rose would be drawing dead.
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On June 20 2013 12:58 Ace wrote:
You don't even get court spacing since Rose isn't a 3 pt threat like Wade either, so you have to let Rose develop his game further.
I don't see anything in the stats that suggest Dwayne is a better 3 pt shooter than Rose. Career 3pt percentage he is 1% better.
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United States22883 Posts
If you think Miami is a drive and kick offense, then you really don't understand what's happening. They've retooled the offense around Lebron in the post and his passing, but it's not like it's the only thing they can do. Hell, they could run the triangle with Bosh and Wade. Those two have a reduced role because the offense now flows through Lebron; the offense doesn't flow through Lebron because those two can't handle it.
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On June 20 2013 13:04 scaban84 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 12:36 Jibba wrote:On June 20 2013 12:24 scaban84 wrote:On June 20 2013 12:10 cLutZ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:56 Ace wrote:
Over 500. And if you think that Chicago roster without Rose is better than Miami without Lebron you clearly missed the entire season. They were just a bit behind Miami's level with Rose struggling to lift the offense to barely average levels. Without him AND Boozer they would get destroyed by even the Bucs. I would postulate that just on the Average PPG between the 2 if you subtracted both from each team during the playoffs they would have been closer. That ignores the ridiculous disparity between the two as playmakers and on defense. The Heat outscored the bulls by like 13 ppg, Imo LBJ is 13 ppg better than Boozer, for a team. Plus, the Bulls don't get the el-cheapo veterans that the Heat do. This past season for the Bulls is almost meaningless due to all the injuries. Even Heinrich and Deng were out a lot towards the end of the season. Full strength Bulls is almost as good Heat that we know for a fact. Just look at the records since Lebron joined Miami. But Miami without Lebron is barely over +.500. That's ridiculous. Wade + Bosh and the rest of that team is still a very good team in the East. Miami prides itself on being a team of "roleplayers" they built the entire team around Lebron. For the most part they have brought in a bunch of shooters. Without Lebron's dominance and no real bigs they don't stand a chance, they would have to change their entire lineup without Lebron because they drive and kick offense won't be there. Every stat out there shows you how terrible and inefficient Miami is when Lebron sits down.
which stats? Imagine Lebron never shows up to Miami and they instead sign Bosh and have enough cap space to sign any other All Star outside of Lebron. Have you looked at Miami's team stats BEFORE Lebron showed up? They would absolutely be a contender without him because even now the team is stacked. It is impossible for a team this good to just collapse to "terrible and inefficient" after the 3 year run they just had. Even with Lebron on the bench Wade and Bosh regularly slaughtered other teams. That was the entire point of them being a matchup problem for anyone - they always had one of those guys on the court and no one could ever get a big enough gap to stop them once 2 of the 3 was subbed back in. 3 Finals in 3 years and multiple killings of top playoff teams and you think this is all held together by LeBron? Even seeing him fail doing what you say he is in Cleveland?
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On June 20 2013 13:10 scaban84 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 12:58 Ace wrote:
You don't even get court spacing since Rose isn't a 3 pt threat like Wade either, so you have to let Rose develop his game further. I don't see anything in the stats that suggest Dwayne is a better 3 pt shooter than Rose. Career 3pt percentage he is 1% better.
He isn't and I never claimed he did. Read what I said, carefully.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 20 2013 13:07 Ace wrote:
Yes, because like it or not losing him means somebody has to play defense at Power Forward. It could be Taj Gibson, but if he's playing defense for that many minutes Chicago is going to have lots of fatigue issues. Lebron could play there, but they already have a hole at the other wing spot, which would again open one up at the small forward spot. Unless Derrick Rose somehow starts guarding SGs and they bring in another floor spacing PG Chicago will have problems.
Miami destroys teams because they can afford to move Wade or Lebron to any other player on the floor defensively and not get annihilated. Chicago wouldn't be doing that. When they go up against say...a Wade/Bosh offense how are they going to survive since Lebron can't stop either one of those guys? Rose would be drawing dead.
I think it's too big of a hypothetical. If they have Lebron instead of Boozer, then they don't need Deng and they probably would've made sure to retain Asik. I think it's too far gone to really predict what would happen.
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On June 20 2013 13:13 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:07 Ace wrote:
Yes, because like it or not losing him means somebody has to play defense at Power Forward. It could be Taj Gibson, but if he's playing defense for that many minutes Chicago is going to have lots of fatigue issues. Lebron could play there, but they already have a hole at the other wing spot, which would again open one up at the small forward spot. Unless Derrick Rose somehow starts guarding SGs and they bring in another floor spacing PG Chicago will have problems.
Miami destroys teams because they can afford to move Wade or Lebron to any other player on the floor defensively and not get annihilated. Chicago wouldn't be doing that. When they go up against say...a Wade/Bosh offense how are they going to survive since Lebron can't stop either one of those guys? Rose would be drawing dead. I think it's too big of a hypothetical. If they have Lebron instead of Boozer, then they don't need Deng and they probably would've made sure to retain Asik. I think it's too far gone to really predict what would happen.
I'm assuming they keep Asik too. I'm looking at this as if we are doing Summer 2010 all over again. Asik/Noah/Lebron/Deng/Rose/Gibson as the core. No Boozer.
There are 2 clear holes here and something I haven't even mentioned because I'm waiting for the pro Rose/Lebron people to analyze how that Chicago offense worked, and exactly what happened with Rose that year. I don't think people realize how historically ridiculous Miami's offense is with Lebron+Wade and the problems that occur if you sub Rose in for Wade.
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On June 20 2013 13:13 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:10 scaban84 wrote:On June 20 2013 12:58 Ace wrote:
You don't even get court spacing since Rose isn't a 3 pt threat like Wade either, so you have to let Rose develop his game further. I don't see anything in the stats that suggest Dwayne is a better 3 pt shooter than Rose. Career 3pt percentage he is 1% better. He isn't and I never claimed he did. Read what I said, carefully.
By saying Wade is a 3pt threat and Rose is not you are saying that Wade is a better 3pt shooter than Rose. Otherwise what do you mean by "threat"?
You said Dwayne gives you spacing, but Wade isn't good from distance, he is a cutter.
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Imagine if the Pistons didn't draft Darko.
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United States22883 Posts
On June 20 2013 13:19 RowdierBob wrote:
Imagine if the Pistons didn't draft Darko.
FUCK YOU. <3
Pistons would've had at least one extra championship if they'd drafted Wade (since Heat wouldn't have won in '06) and think how fucking legendary those Cavs-Pistons series would've become.
Looking over it he shot 62% that series. That series actually infuriated me more than any of the Lebron torchings, because Lebron looked invincible when he went off. Wade was always limping around and making circus shots that had no business going in. It looked like Lebron deserved it meanwhile Wade was just getting lucky, except he was lucky 62% of the time. 
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I didn't say Wade is a 3 point threat.
you don't even get court spacing since Rose isn't a 3 pt threat like Wade either
This means neither of them is one. Wade is a slasher and post player with some mid-range shooting dashed in. Thats simplifying it but lets roll with it. The problem some of the current version of NBA writers have is that many of them don't recognize that space is created in many ways - not just 3 point shooting. Lebron has had plenty of space to work with sans Wade, we saw it in Game 5. What happened? He struggled against Diaw. If Wade is there and they decide not to guard him tough shit when he starts beating his man baseline for lay ups or mid-range shots. If he hits them even near his season averages - like he did in that same game, San Antonio has to retool their defense or risk getting cooked by new spacing since now they have to play up on Wade. Of course, no one is mentioning that Wade's shooting was lights out once he got healthy and just keep claiming he can't shoot. Which is absurd for one of the best offensive players in NBA history.
Now back to Rose. Why can't Rose work with Lebron Year 1? It could, but not as easy as many think. He was just starting to make the leap offensively, and even still wasn't as abusive in the arc as Wade that very season. So Rose needs to refine his off-ball game since we know Lebron is going to dominate the ball. He becomes a better 3 point shooter, cutter, mid-range shooter, or post up player. All in 1 summer when he is JUST getting to elite status. Compared to a guy who already has been the solo creator for Miami all these years and is advanced offensively to a degree Rose would need time to match.
You're asking for a whole hell of a lot here.
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On June 20 2013 13:12 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:04 scaban84 wrote:On June 20 2013 12:36 Jibba wrote:On June 20 2013 12:24 scaban84 wrote:On June 20 2013 12:10 cLutZ wrote:On June 20 2013 11:56 Ace wrote:
Over 500. And if you think that Chicago roster without Rose is better than Miami without Lebron you clearly missed the entire season. They were just a bit behind Miami's level with Rose struggling to lift the offense to barely average levels. Without him AND Boozer they would get destroyed by even the Bucs. I would postulate that just on the Average PPG between the 2 if you subtracted both from each team during the playoffs they would have been closer. That ignores the ridiculous disparity between the two as playmakers and on defense. The Heat outscored the bulls by like 13 ppg, Imo LBJ is 13 ppg better than Boozer, for a team. Plus, the Bulls don't get the el-cheapo veterans that the Heat do. This past season for the Bulls is almost meaningless due to all the injuries. Even Heinrich and Deng were out a lot towards the end of the season. Full strength Bulls is almost as good Heat that we know for a fact. Just look at the records since Lebron joined Miami. But Miami without Lebron is barely over +.500. That's ridiculous. Wade + Bosh and the rest of that team is still a very good team in the East. Miami prides itself on being a team of "roleplayers" they built the entire team around Lebron. For the most part they have brought in a bunch of shooters. Without Lebron's dominance and no real bigs they don't stand a chance, they would have to change their entire lineup without Lebron because they drive and kick offense won't be there. Every stat out there shows you how terrible and inefficient Miami is when Lebron sits down. which stats? Imagine Lebron never shows up to Miami and they instead sign Bosh and have enough cap space to sign any other All Star outside of Lebron. Have you looked at Miami's team stats BEFORE Lebron showed up? They would absolutely be a contender without him because even now the team is stacked. It is impossible for a team this good to just collapse to "terrible and inefficient" after the 3 year run they just had. Even with Lebron on the bench Wade and Bosh regularly slaughtered other teams. That was the entire point of them being a matchup problem for anyone - they always had one of those guys on the court and no one could ever get a big enough gap to stop them once 2 of the 3 was subbed back in. 3 Finals in 3 years and multiple killings of top playoff teams and you think this is all held together by LeBron? Even seeing him fail doing what you say he is in Cleveland?
Wade and Bosh do not slaughter teams lol. They may look so when they are playing against opposing team's bench after Lebron has slaughtered the starting lineup. Wade struggles without Lebron. Check the efficiency stats between Lebron-Wade, Lebron+Wade, and Wade-Lebron. For example in the Finals Wade has been terrible. http://www.businessinsider.com/dwyane-wade-nba-finals-stats-2013-6
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On June 20 2013 13:26 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 13:19 RowdierBob wrote:
Imagine if the Pistons didn't draft Darko. FUCK YOU. <3 Pistons would've had at least one extra championship if they'd drafted Wade (since Heat wouldn't have won in '06) and think how fucking legendary those Cavs-Pistons series would've become.
That would have been a remarkeable 3 or 4 year run for Detroit. Hell, Miami almost won in 05 but a Wade injury took them out and Detroit went on to the Finals. If you put Wade on that 05 Detroit team I don't see San Antonio even having a shot based on what he did up to that point in the playoffs.
04 and 05 could be back to back championships. 06 obviously since Dallas would still have trouble stopping him from scoring (and he lit them up with Shaq on the bench or the court, didn't matter).
How do you see 07 and 08 going? They'd murder the 07 Cavs but by now I don't know if the supporting cast is good enough to stop 07 Parker and that Spurs team, 08 them beating Boston would have been very tough.
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EPT
