|
On October 13 2013 20:15 PoP wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 19:28 1Dhalism wrote:
I didnt say Ferrari had the best car. I said they had car capable of winning WDCs.
Yes Alonso was on the back foot, but if he was slightly better and Vettel was slightly worse he wouldve won.
McLaren and Lotus also had "cars capable of winning WDCs". But I'm afraid competition through luck and random race events (given that all these teams have exceptional drivers) isn't pleasing many people except RB and its fans. All these teams need to actually make some real catching up at some point, and have all failed very, very hard (except McLaren last year I guess, but you also have to finish races I guess). Hopefully next year will change things around, but for some reason I'm doubtful. Horner and his crew seem to be one step ahead of everyone else all the time.
that article really means absolutely nothing. i'd question it even back in the procession era, but now being fast doesn't mean anything. It's the "package." If fast won WDCs HAM would be contesting vettel, not alonso. Tyre degradation, reliability, pit stop crew(something MCL notably suffers in, and Red Bull excels) and who knows what I am forgetting makes up the numbers.
Next year will be great regardless. Alonso racing Raikkonen in the same car will at least settle one debate for sure(i guess most rank Kimi as 4th amongst the V-H-A).
But for challenging Vettel i think the ferrari strategy is horrendous. Kimi will eat up Alonso's points(or vice verse) and Ricciardo will be Vettel's Barichello/DC/(motivated) Massa.
|
On October 13 2013 20:37 1Dhalism wrote:
that article really means absolutely nothing. i'd question it even back in the procession era, but now being fast doesn't mean anything. It's the "package." If fast won WDCs HAM would be contesting vettel, not alonso. Tyre degradation, reliability, pit stop crew(something MCL notably suffers in, and Red Bull excels) and who knows what I am forgetting makes up the numbers.
You're right, except no team has been significantly better than Red Bull at these things either, with the exception of the Ferraris being quite a bit more reliable last year (which is why they came that close to winning).
Next year will be great regardless. Alonso racing Raikkonen in the same car will at least settle one debate for sure(i guess most rank Kimi as 4th amongst the V-H-A).
But for challenging Vettel i think the ferrari strategy is horrendous. Kimi will eat up Alonso's points(or vice verse) and Ricciardo will be Vettel's Barichello/DC/(motivated) Massa.
Sometimes bringing a big name in like that can give some sort of a boost. New rules, former world champion back, more expectations, more drive to actually change things up. But from a purely pragmatic, WDC-winning chances standpoint, I agree with you completely.
|
Germany1287 Posts
On October 13 2013 18:28 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 17:56 zere wrote:So Mark's 2nd stint tyres were fine, and he had a fresh set of Primes left; so what they do here is put him on a 3stopper with used Options because he would have contested Veetle's win.  Is there any way Vettel could have got a victory that would have made some people K with it?
Yeah, the moment he stops demanding to get his teammate "out of the way".
|
On October 13 2013 21:03 zere wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 18:28 Lonyo wrote:On October 13 2013 17:56 zere wrote:So Mark's 2nd stint tyres were fine, and he had a fresh set of Primes left; so what they do here is put him on a 3stopper with used Options because he would have contested Veetle's win. Is there any way Vettel could have got a victory that would have made some people K with it? Yeah, the moment he stops demanding to get his teammate "out of the way".
Maybe his teammate should be faster. And what about every other driver who does the same? Because they do.
Grosjean, Hamilton, Alonso etc.
And the TV broadcast radio messages are highly selective, generally they only include small snippets of messages/conversations, and of only a very small number of messages. Basing anything on the radio messages broadcast as part of the TV coverage is silly, if that is what you are doing.
|
On October 13 2013 23:34 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2013 21:03 zere wrote:On October 13 2013 18:28 Lonyo wrote:On October 13 2013 17:56 zere wrote:So Mark's 2nd stint tyres were fine, and he had a fresh set of Primes left; so what they do here is put him on a 3stopper with used Options because he would have contested Veetle's win. Is there any way Vettel could have got a victory that would have made some people K with it? Yeah, the moment he stops demanding to get his teammate "out of the way". Maybe his teammate should be faster. And what about every other driver who does the same? Because they do. Grosjean, Hamilton, Alonso etc. And the TV broadcast radio messages are highly selective, generally they only include small snippets of messages/conversations, and of only a very small number of messages. Basing anything on the radio messages broadcast as part of the TV coverage is silly, if that is what you are doing.
The difference is the other drivers do it when their teammate is in front of them, not behind.
|
Alonso has beaten Schumacher in total points earned. But because this statistic is obv. flawed, because you get more points these days, have I been wondering: Are there any statistics to be found which aren't related to points? Like average finishing position or some other more convincing statistics.
|
On October 14 2013 00:32 itsdamuffinman wrote:
Alonso has beaten Schumacher in total points earned. But because this statistic is obv. flawed, because you get more points these days, have I been wondering: Are there any statistics to be found which aren't related to points? Like average finishing position or some other more convincing statistics.
That still wouldn't be a very good statistic. It's sensitive to field size and what teams drivers have to work through. Hamilton stepped right into a McLaren, Alonso started in a Minardi, for instance.
|
To suggest that Vettel would win the WDC in other cars and other drivers could not win in the RB is silly. Last year I agree that McLaren had a car worthy of competing, but the only reason Lewis didn't win was factors outside his control so I am not sure why "fast doesn't win". This year perhaps if Lewis or Fernando were in the Lotus it could have competed too but I doubt it. I will say though that Seb has deserved the title this year, he has driven a superb season so far.
In 2005 McLaren had a way better car than Renault, Alonso won the WDC through consistency. Many times people win titles without the best car. 03, 05, 07, 08 as recent examples.
As for next year I agree with Alonso that Kimi will just be Massa mk2, with better consistency. I think Kimi is a perfect #2 for Fernando, he isn't great at quali and is strong and consistent in races. Pretty similar to Alonso but just not as good.
|
Why is Lotus more competitive than Mercedes over the course of the season?
Based on both drivers, the Mercedes is the faster car than Ferrari or Lotus, since both drivers have managed to score relatively well, vs only one driver in Ferrari and Lotus, and they have won the most races, as well as setting most pole positions.
|
Germany1287 Posts
On October 14 2013 00:32 itsdamuffinman wrote:
Alonso has beaten Schumacher in total points earned. But because this statistic is obv. flawed, because you get more points these days, have I been wondering: Are there any statistics to be found which aren't related to points? Like average finishing position or some other more convincing statistics.
Podium quota?
+ Show Spoiler +
...
Fangio 64.71%
...
Prost 53.54%
Schumacher 50.65%
Vettel 50%
...
Senna 49.69%
Ascari 46.88%
Clark 44.44%
Alonso 44.34%
Stewart 43.43%
Hamilton 43.2%
Raikkonen 40.31%
...
Lauda 31.76%
Hakkinen 31.68%
Mansell 31.55%
...
Piquet 29.56%
...
Button 20.16%
...
Massa 19.25%
...
Wobbler 18.48%
Start-Finish victories, I like this one
+ Show Spoiler +
Senna 18
Clark 13
Schumacher 11
Stewart 11
Vettel 10
Mansell 9
Ascari 7
Prost 7
Lauda 6
...
Hakkinen 4
Alonso 3
Raikkonen 3
Hamilton 2
Button 2
...
Massa 0
|
Points are handed out on Sunday not Saturday and Mercedes have had dreadful race pace compared to Lotus and Ferrari. Rosberg is much better than Grosjean or Massa.
|
Vettel gets 2nd in qualifying without any KERs, even mistakes on his timed lap.
Vettel ends up 7s ahead of his teammate in the same car, which is 10s ahead of the 3rd, the next renault.
and then the rest of the field basically not even mentioning.
|
On October 14 2013 06:19 a176 wrote:
Vettel gets 2nd in qualifying without any KERs, even mistakes on his timed lap.
Vettel ends up 7s ahead of his teammate in the same car, which is 10s ahead of the 3rd, the next renault.
and then the rest of the field basically not even mentioning.
it's to the leader. Grosjean was 2.8 sec behind webber. And Webber was lapping like 2 seconds faster than Vettel when he came out of the pits, but was held up by Grosjean.
|
On October 14 2013 00:59 Lonyo wrote:
Why is Lotus more competitive than Mercedes over the course of the season?
Based on both drivers, the Mercedes is the faster car than Ferrari or Lotus, since both drivers have managed to score relatively well, vs only one driver in Ferrari and Lotus, and they have won the most races, as well as setting most pole positions.
Teams develop/improve their cars over the course of a season, some of them improve while others stagnate, a nice example is Brawn from a few season ago, at the start of the season unbeatable, but by the end practically the worst car on the circuit. You have to remember that the technology used in every car on the grid, from Red Bull to Marussia is 95% the same, but its the 5% difference you get by investing 200 million that makes you go one second faster in a lap.
Next year huge changes will be made because of the new regulations coming into effect, new V6 engines instead of V8, while for the first time in 20 years turbochargers will be allowed, add to that the new regulations to the nose/body of the car and you have the biggest changes in F1 since a very long time ago. Scratch everything you think you know about who has the best car for next season because everything depends on the engines Ferrari, Mercedes-Benz and Renault make
|
On October 14 2013 15:49 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2013 00:59 Lonyo wrote:
Why is Lotus more competitive than Mercedes over the course of the season?
Based on both drivers, the Mercedes is the faster car than Ferrari or Lotus, since both drivers have managed to score relatively well, vs only one driver in Ferrari and Lotus, and they have won the most races, as well as setting most pole positions. Teams develop/improve their cars over the course of a season, some of them improve while others stagnate, a nice example is Brawn from a few season ago, at the start of the season unbeatable, but by the end practically the worst car on the circuit. You have to remember that the technology used in every car on the grid, from Red Bull to Marussia is 95% the same, but its the 5% difference you get by investing 200 million that makes you go one second faster in a lap. Next year huge changes will be made because of the new regulations coming into effect, new V6 engines instead of V8, while for the first time in 20 years turbochargers will be allowed, add to that the new regulations to the nose/body of the car and you have the biggest changes in F1 since a very long time ago. Scratch everything you think you know about who has the best car for next season because everything depends on the engines Ferrari, Mercedes-Benz and Renault make
Yeah, this is the first chance RBR has had to have an engine even remotely competitive with the rest of the field in a long time. They'll probably just go further ahead. : p
|
I know that was a sarcastic comment but I wonder, is the Renault the best engine under these regulations? They (RB and Lotus) seem to have great drivability and Williams made a huge step in performance the season they switched from Cosworth even winning a race. A counter argument would be that Caterham didn't make a large improvement when they switched. Most pundits say the Mercedes has the most power but that is not the sole attribute to look for and Renault are reported to have the best fuel efficiency. I left out Ferrari from the example because Red Bull have the choice of both and chose Renault.
So, if you were an independent team principal, which engine would you have chosen?
Bit of a finger in the air job but I would go with Renault I think.
|
On October 15 2013 02:28 Aristodemus wrote:
I know that was a sarcastic comment but I wonder, is the Renault the best engine under these regulations? They (RB and Lotus) seem to have great drivability and Williams made a huge step in performance the season they switched from Cosworth even winning a race. A counter argument would be that Caterham didn't make a large improvement when they switched. Most pundits say the Mercedes has the most power but that is not the sole attribute to look for and Renault are reported to have the best fuel efficiency. I left out Ferrari from the example because Red Bull have the choice of both and chose Renault.
So, if you were an independent team principal, which engine would you have chosen?
Bit of a finger in the air job but I would go with Renault I think.
Pie chart time:
Don't get me wrong, I think Renault has a very good engine but I think the reason Red Bull is doing so well is completely down to their engineers making significant breakthroughs in how to maximize that engine within the confines of FIA regulations. Whatever they are doing (even if they somehow hooked the KER's system to the wheels and made some sort of traction controll) you can bet FIA has gone thoroughly through every single centimeter of that car and found that it is legal. They made the breakthroughs, they are at the top, also Vettel is one of the greatest drivers ever in terms of adapting to a new car, all of this adds up.
Now, during the course of a season all the teams make changes to their cars, so a car from race 4 can have many changes when you compare it to a car used in race 1, this is down to teams always trying to make their car more competitive within the regulations set for that season. That is how teams like Lotus and Sauber are now competitive, what happened with Lotus wasn't so much changes in their motor, what they did was extended their wheelbase (the frontal suspension arms are angled less backward, moving the wheel forward relative to the chassis, this increases the wheelbase between 7 to 10cm changing the weight transfer characteristics of the car, so that you get a small aerodynamic gain as the front wheels are now further ahead of the sidepods). And look at what a small change it did for them, they might even be able to challenge Ferrari in pure performance.
Sauber on the other hand was really struggling during most of the season because they just couldn't get everything to click, but with new sidepods and exhaust exits which are eerily similar to Red Bulls, they are racking up the points, right at the heels of Force India, its just that the more money you have, the faster these improvements come.
What is also really important is when does a team stop investing in their current seasons car and start pumping funds into the new season, this is why championship cars usually don't win races at the end of a season because their team is already working on the next one. Look at Mclaren for example, shit car this year, absolute shite and going nowhere. They are going nowhere because they have sacked this season in favor of getting a really good head start on the next one, a few days ago they poached a key engineer from Red Bull, this tells you they are taking next season very serious. Along with Mclaren next season watch out for Red Bull, after they win the title in like 2 weeks everything goes into the 2014 car, so RB also has a head start. Now Ferrari is kind of in a rough spot, do they go for the second place in constructors or do they want a head start for next season, same goes for Mercedes so... I guess the whole point of this long post is to say the main teams next season will be:
1.Mclaren
2.Red Bull
3/4. Ferrari/Merc.
Sorry this is such a long post 
|
On October 15 2013 07:07 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 02:28 Aristodemus wrote:
I know that was a sarcastic comment but I wonder, is the Renault the best engine under these regulations? They (RB and Lotus) seem to have great drivability and Williams made a huge step in performance the season they switched from Cosworth even winning a race. A counter argument would be that Caterham didn't make a large improvement when they switched. Most pundits say the Mercedes has the most power but that is not the sole attribute to look for and Renault are reported to have the best fuel efficiency. I left out Ferrari from the example because Red Bull have the choice of both and chose Renault.
So, if you were an independent team principal, which engine would you have chosen?
Bit of a finger in the air job but I would go with Renault I think.
Pie chart time: Don't get me wrong, I think Renault has a very good engine but I think the reason Red Bull is doing so well is completely down to their engineers making significant breakthroughs in how to maximize that engine within the confines of FIA regulations. Whatever they are doing (even if they somehow hooked the KER's system to the wheels and made some sort of traction controll) you can bet FIA has gone thoroughly through every single centimeter of that car and found that it is legal. They made the breakthroughs, they are at the top, also Vettel is one of the greatest drivers ever in terms of adapting to a new car, all of this adds up. Now, during the course of a season all the teams make changes to their cars, so a car from race 4 can have many changes when you compare it to a car used in race 1, this is down to teams always trying to make their car more competitive within the regulations set for that season. That is how teams like Lotus and Sauber are now competitive, what happened with Lotus wasn't so much changes in their motor, what they did was extended their wheelbase (the frontal suspension arms are angled less backward, moving the wheel forward relative to the chassis, this increases the wheelbase between 7 to 10cm changing the weight transfer characteristics of the car, so that you get a small aerodynamic gain as the front wheels are now further ahead of the sidepods). And look at what a small change it did for them, they might even be able to challenge Ferrari in pure performance. Sauber on the other hand was really struggling during most of the season because they just couldn't get everything to click, but with new sidepods and exhaust exits which are eerily similar to Red Bulls, they are racking up the points, right at the heels of Force India, its just that the more money you have, the faster these improvements come. What is also really important is when does a team stop investing in their current seasons car and start pumping funds into the new season, this is why championship cars usually don't win races at the end of a season because their team is already working on the next one. Look at Mclaren for example, shit car this year, absolute shite and going nowhere. They are going nowhere because they have sacked this season in favor of getting a really good head start on the next one, a few days ago they poached a key engineer from Red Bull, this tells you they are taking next season very serious. Along with Mclaren next season watch out for Red Bull, after they win the title in like 2 weeks everything goes into the 2014 car, so RB also has a head start. Now Ferrari is kind of in a rough spot, do they go for the second place in constructors or do they want a head start for next season, same goes for Mercedes so... I guess the whole point of this long post is to say the main teams next season will be: 1.Mclaren 2.Red Bull 3/4. Ferrari/Merc. Sorry this is such a long post
Mercedes and Ferrari have already stopped developing the 2013 car other than 2014 parts.
|
@Zaros
But he admits the team will have a tough decision to take if they feel they need to respond because it could mean pulling some resources back from the 2014 project.
"There are three points to look at," he said. "First, did we miss something and if so, why?
"Second, we need to balance the resources right in terms of 2014 versus 2013.
"Then third we have to be looking at finishing second in the championship.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110633?source=mostpopular
|
Just caught up on Korea/Japan from DVR. Both good races. Something about Korea is really punishing and makes the racing their pretty close every year. I'll be sad if it drops off the calendar.
Disappointing for Mark in Japan. Strong defending (look very much like 'two moves' from Grosjean to me) botched his charge for Seb and P1 at the end.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4b/F1_team_budget_split.svg)
